For general discussion about Conway's Game of Life.
Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Why was a for all called a for all?
Is it because it resembles and A and an upside down one, the symbol for “for all” (∀), in one phase?
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dvgrn
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Moosey wrote:Why was a for all called a for all?
Is it because it resembles [an] A and an upside down one, the symbol for “for all” (∀), in one phase?
That seems like a good theory. Dean Hickerson wasn't very specific about etymology when he introduced the name in an email in 1993.

Here's an unrelated basic question: what's the simplest way to destructively scan through a rectangular field that may or may not contain a block at any given (X,Y) value, and return enough data to allow the exact same pattern of blocks to be rebuilt somewhere else?

A simple kickback can be used to check for the presence of a block in various ways. Here's one that works as long as the nearest block on the same row is at least 7 cells away to the left, or 5 cells away to the right:

Code: Select all

``````x = 52, y = 20, rule = LifeHistory
2.2A5.2A3.2A21.2A5.2A3.2A\$2.2A5.2A3.2A21.2A5.2A3.2A2\$2.2A5.2A3.2A21.
2A5.2D3.2A\$2.2A5.2A3.2A21.2A5.2D3.2A8\$15.A34.A\$14.2A33.2A\$14.A.A32.A.
A3\$3A32.3A\$2.A34.A\$.A34.A!``````
Or there's a different positioning that allows another block 5 cells away on the left, or 7 cells away to the right -- but the next block to the north has to be a little farther away, so this doesn't seem to be any kind of improvement:

Code: Select all

``````x = 56, y = 24, rule = LifeHistory
41.2A3.2A5.2A\$41.2A3.2A5.2A2\$2.2A3.2A5.2A\$2.2A3.2A5.2A25.2A3.2A5.2A\$
41.2A3.2A5.2A2\$2.2A3.2D5.2A\$2.2A3.2D5.2A5\$54.A\$53.2A\$53.A.A\$15.A\$14.
2A\$14.A.A22.3A\$41.A\$40.A\$3A\$2.A\$.A!``````
Again, the idea here is to run the test reaction against each X,Y location in some rectangular (or diamond-shaped) area, collect the gliders that come back, and eventually maybe use that information to build an exact copy of the original block constellation. What's a good reaction that would allow nearby blocks to be closer -- 4 cells away in one of the directions on the same row, possibly?

(Really when you're doing a scan you'll start in one corner and work across systematically, so that 4-cell clearance would only be needed on one side.)

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

This is a kind of weird question, but what happened with the minstrels? We discovered most of them in December 2018 through early February, and haven’t found one since!
Is it just that there’s not a lot of demand, and we’ve stopped searching? Also, does anybody have a script to link two existing minstrels together, i.e. to automate EV’s discovery of M4?
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"

GUYTU6J
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

A small question: how to search for a monoengine/one-engine cordership?
Removed for swansong, Moosit
I indeed suffer from Life Worker Time Deficiency Syndrome (LWTDS)

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

GUYTU6J wrote:A small question: how to search for a monoengine/one-engine cordership?
The 2 engine CS was found using this script, but since you’re searching for a 1-engine cordership you could just try placing random objects near a switch engine. I doubt (and I believe you do too) it will be successful though.
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"

dvgrn
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Moosey wrote:
GUYTU6J wrote:A small question: how to search for a monoengine/one-engine cordership?
The 2 engine CS was found using this script, but since you’re searching for a 1-engine cordership you could just try placing random objects near a switch engine. I doubt (and I believe you do too) it will be successful though.
Yes, the odds are pretty low that one of these will pop up (except for Calcyman's suggestion of building a fleet of fast Caterloopillar-like c/12 diagonal spaceships and using them to support a single switch engine.)

A fairly efficient way to search for them is to simply run the lastest apgsearch on C1 soups. If there's one out there that can be found by dropping random objects near a switch engine, well, Catagolue might well stumble on it eventually, since it has recorded hundreds of millions of switch engines already.

If you want the search to go faster, you can use the stdin symmetry and some custom coding to make sure that every initial soup includes a switch engine.

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Just a quick question:
If we were going to make a Stable Storage Spaceship (a SS-SS), then would there be an encoding system involving still lives such that, when you use the encoded gliders in the SLs, they contain more information than is necessary to build the same SLs? I guess this is probably the very idea behind SS-SSes, but this wouldn't be a single glider repeatedly crashing into a giant constellation, where the end result is the exact same setup, but rather a UCC which reads a giant instruction tape, and recreates the whole thing.

Sort of a "genetic" spaceship, where each gene has more than enough information to build itself.
no massive glider loops, just a huge line of assorted SLs where the front ones code for a UCC, the middle ones code for all of the genes, and the back ones code for self-destruction?

So, where grey dots = active UCCs, white dots = not-yet-activated UCCs, green bits = UCC instructions, yellow bits = tape instructions, and red bits = self-destruction instructions:

Code: Select all

``````x = 38, y = 66, rule = LifeHistory
F.3A30E3D5\$16.F\$16.F\$16.F\$16.F\$14.5F\$15.3F\$16.F6\$C2\$F4.30E3D6\$16.F\$
16.F\$16.F\$16.F\$14.5F\$15.3F\$16.F7\$C.3A30E3D2\$F34.3D7\$16.F\$16.F\$16.F\$
16.F\$16.F\$14.5F\$15.3F\$16.F11\$F.3A30E3D!
#c VERY [[ VIEWONLY ]]
``````
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"

dvgrn
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Moosey wrote:Sort of a "genetic" spaceship, where each gene has more than enough information to build itself.
I think this description is what's known in the trade as wild hand-waving. If these kinds of "over-unity genes" can be constructed, and they end up being a reasonable size, they will be a great way to build self-constructing spaceships.

But whenever I try to design a construction encoding along these lines, so far I've always ended up with a huge tangle of complex wiring, well before I finish solving all the technical problems.

An idea that was explored a little bit, over a decade ago now, is the "UUCC" -- Universal Universal-Constructor Component. The idea is that you build all your circuitry out of identical copies of the exact same component. Each UUCC would contain 90-degree reflector inputs and outputs for every possible direction, maybe with splitter options, and would also include a complete chainable self-destruct mechanism.

With circuitry built entirely out of UUCCs, the "genes" for a spaceship could be just a list of locations to build UUCCs, plus maybe a few one-time turners here and there to chain the self-destruct sequences together. Theoretically this would require a much smaller set of construction instructions, compared to encoding each slow-salvo glider for every part of the construction recipe.

Unfortunately, in practice it seems to be terribly awkward to design circuitry built out of UUCCs that's complex enough to read a list of coordinates and re-use the same sub-recipe for each UUCC. The whole mechanism seems to end up far more complicated than a nice simple active glider loop with two copies of a recipe (or one copy sent out twice, once for a BUILD stage and once for a COPY stage).

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

How do I make a custom neighborhood in a ruletable?
such as a knight's move:

Code: Select all

``````x * x * x
* x x x *
x x x x x
* x x x *
x * x * x``````
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"

testitemqlstudop
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

I would advise you to use CoordCA (see scripts forum), because the neighborhoods are easy to manipulate and it can automatically generate Golly rule tables.

Saka
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Moosey wrote:How do I make a custom neighborhood in a ruletable?
such as a knight's move:

Code: Select all

``````x * x * x
* x x x *
x x x x x
* x x x *
x * x * x``````
You can only make custom neighborhoods in apgsearch's / lifelib's ruleTables, not Golly.
testitemqlstudop wrote:I would advise you to use CoordCA (see scripts forum), because the neighborhoods are easy to manipulate and it can automatically generate Golly rule tables.
Yes!
CoordCA is available here:
http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewto ... f=9&t=3932

But Andrew made a golly script that can simulate CoordCA rules:
http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewto ... f=9&t=3995
Airy Clave White It Nay

Code: Select all

``````x = 17, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2ob2obo5b2o\$11b4obo\$2bob3o2bo2b3o\$bo3b2o4b2o\$o2bo2bob2o3b4o\$bob2obo5b
o2b2o\$2b2o4bobo2b3o\$bo3b5ob2obobo\$2bo5bob2o\$4bob2o2bobobo!
``````
(Check gen 2)

wildmyron
Posts: 1313
Joined: August 9th, 2013, 12:45 am

### Re: Thread for basic questions

Moosey wrote:How do I make a custom neighborhood in a ruletable?
such as a knight's move:

Code: Select all

``````x * x * x
* x x x *
x x x x x
* x x x *
x * x * x``````
Further to the other responses above, this kind of rule can only be emulated by Golly ruletables. An implementation of this idea was posted to the forum years ago, and various semi-totalistic rules using that neighbourhood explored. The knights' move CA neighbourhood was also briefly discussed several years later. I mention this mainly as inspiration and for reference - I would suggest if you want to explore these rules that you should use something other than Golly ruletables. Options available (including those mention above):
• The new lua CA simulation software for Golly NewCA.lua (either using the existing CoordCA.lua or writing a dedicated script for the knight neighbourhood to make rule specification easier).
• CoordCA.
• Brian Prentice's Java Square Cell.
The latest version of the 5S Project contains over 226,000 spaceships. There is also a GitHub mirror of the collection. Tabulated pages up to period 160 (out of date) are available on the LifeWiki.

Andrew
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Below is a little script that makes it easy to create a CoordCA rule with a custom neighborhood. Here are the steps:

1. Run CoordCA.lua.
2. Make a selection (must be 3x3 or 5x5 or 7x7).
3. Draw live cells inside the selection representing the custom neighborhood.
4. Run the following script (save it as a .lua file or copy it to the clipboard and select File > Run Clipboard).

If a 5x5 selection contains Moosey's knight-move pattern then the rule will change to
154422A-2_3_2-3.

Code: Select all

``````-- This script can be run from CoordCA.lua to create a rule using the
-- live cells in the current selection for the custom neighborhood.

local g = golly()

local selrect = g.getselrect()
if #selrect == 0 then g.warn("There is no selection.") g.exit() end
if #g.getcells(selrect) == 0 then g.warn("The selection is empty.") g.exit() end
local _, _, wd, ht = table.unpack(selrect)
if not ((wd == 3 and ht == 3) or
(wd == 5 and ht == 5) or
(wd == 7 and ht == 7)) then
g.warn("Selection size must be 3x3 or 5x5 or 7x7.") g.exit()
end

local h = 1
local midx = selrect[1]+(wd//2)
local midy = selrect[2]+(ht//2)
for y = selrect[2], selrect[2]+ht-1 do
for x = selrect[1], selrect[1]+wd-1 do
if x == midx and y == midy then
-- ignore central cell
else
h = h * 2
if g.getcell(x,y) > 0 then h = h + 1 end
end
end
end

SetRule(string.format("%X",h).."-"..(wd//2).."_3_2-3")
g.show("New rule uses a custom neighborhood based on cells in selection.")
``````

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Would it be possible to make a reflector using the pi ->2G catalyst?

Code: Select all

``````#C found by hand, which is why this is a terribly cruddy partial result
x = 20, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
12b2o\$2o10b2o\$bo\$bobo\$2b2o4\$7b3o\$9bo\$8bo5\$14bo\$13bobo\$14bobo\$6b2o3b3o
2b3o\$6b2o2bo3b2o3bo\$10bob2o2b3o\$11bo2bobo\$13bobo\$14bo!
``````
It seems the main problem is to replace the block while working around where the glider comes in.
If we did, would it be CC or CP?*
*would a slightly smaller CC reflector be really awesome? Or is it fine to stay with CC cenarks?
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"

dvgrn
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Moosey wrote:Would it be possible to make a reflector using the pi ->2G catalyst?
...
It seems like the main problem is to replace the block while working around where the glider comes in.
It looks to me like the main problem is finding places to add catalysts to tame the leftover active reaction before it destroys everything. There's only a tiny and horribly awkward window of opportunity to work through, over on the left (the red preblock):

Code: Select all

```x = 41, y = 24, rule = LifeHistory 15.2A\$3.2A10.2A\$4.A11.6D\$4.A.A8.8D\$5.2A7.4D2.4D\$13.4D4.4D\$12.4D6.4D\$ 11.4D8.4D\$5.2D3.4D10.4D\$5.D3.4D12.4D\$8.4D14.4D\$7.4D16.4D\$6.4D18.4D\$5. 4D20.4D\$4.4D22.4D\$3.4D10.A13.4D\$2.4D10.A.A13.4D\$17.A.A13.4D\$3A6.2A3. 3A2.3A12.4D\$2.A6.2A2.A3.2A3.A12.4D\$.A11.A.2A2.3A14.4D\$14.A2.A.A17.4D\$ 16.A.A\$17.A! #C [[ THUMBNAIL THUMBSIZE 2 ]]```
Maybe a sacrificial bait object could be placed there to settle things down, but then you'd have two objects to rebuild instead of one. I wouldn't dare say it's impossible, but there are definitely thousands of reactions out there that look a lot more hopeful than this one.
Moosey wrote:If we did, would it be CC or CP? ...
[W]ould a slightly smaller CC reflector be really awesome? Or is it fine to stay with CC cenarks?
It would be color-changing. You can tell from the inside corner of an intersection of glider tracks like the one shown above. If the inside corner is one cell wide, it's color-preserving, like a Snark; if it's two cells wide, it's color-changing.

There isn't currently any such thing as a CC cenark. There are only CC semi-cenarks, which eat two input gliders for every output. So a CC reflector of any size under 50x37 (which I think is the current smallest one) would indeed be really awesome, especially if it's under 25x25 and recovers in 50 ticks or less. (That would win MikeP's open prize offer.)

Ian07
Posts: 393
Joined: September 22nd, 2018, 8:48 am

### Re: Thread for basic questions

Is Fore and back considered a billiard table? From what I understand it is, (and the infobox has specified this since 2016) but an edit mentioning this was reverted this morning, and I'd like to know if my conception of this is correct.

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

dvgrn wrote:
Moosey wrote:Would it be possible to make a reflector using the pi ->2G catalyst?
...
It seems like the main problem is to replace the block while working around where the glider comes in.
It looks to me like the main problem is finding places to add catalysts to tame the leftover active reaction before it destroys everything. There's only a tiny and horribly awkward window of opportunity to work through, over on the left (the red preblock):
Well, to be fair, I was using the eater as an example catalyst, so we have a whole lot more space to work with:

Code: Select all

``````#C This is optimistic since there are probably very few catalyst you could place close
#C to the block, but it’s still a reasonable amount of space.
x = 41, y = 24, rule = LifeHistory
15.2A\$15.2A\$2.12D2.6D\$2.11D2.8D\$2.10D2.4D2.4D\$2.9D2.4D4.4D\$2.8D2.4D6.
4D\$2.7D2.4D8.4D\$2.6D2.4D10.4D\$2.5D2.4D12.4D\$2.4D2.4D14.4D\$2.3D2.4D16.
4D\$2.2D2.4D18.4D\$2.D2.4D20.4D\$4.4D22.4D\$3.4D10.A13.4D\$2.4D10.A.A13.4D
\$17.A.A13.4D\$3A6.2A3.3A2.3A12.4D\$2.A6.2A2.A3.2A3.A12.4D\$.A11.A.2A2.3A
14.4D\$14.A2.A.A17.4D\$16.A.A\$17.A!
``````
dvgrn wrote:
Moosey wrote:If we did, would it be CC or CP? ...
[W]ould a slightly smaller CC reflector be really awesome? Or is it fine to stay with CC cenarks?
It would be color-changing. You can tell from the inside corner of an intersection of glider tracks like the one shown above. If the inside corner is one cell wide, it's color-preserving, like a Snark; if it's two cells wide, it's color-changing.

There isn't currently any such thing as a CC cenark. There are only CC semi-cenarks, which eat two input gliders for every output. So a CC reflector of any size under 50x37 (which I think is the current smallest one) would indeed be really awesome, especially if it's under 25x25 and recovers in 50 ticks or less. (That would win MikeP's open prize offer.)
Oh, that’s better than I thought.

Is this a project worth undertaking, then?

(Apparently this would also probably be my most notable contribution yet- pointing another thing out. Apparently I have a lot of great ideas but no capacity to do any of them, whether it’s a SS-SS or a potential new smallest CC reflector (and maybe new smallest overall reflector too?))

Ian07 wrote:Is Fore and back considered a billiard table? From what I understand it is, (and the infobox has specified this since 2016) but an edit mentioning this was reverted this morning, and I'd like to know if my conception of this is correct.
My understanding is that a pattern is a billard table if you can’t draw an orthogonal ray through dead cells and hit a rotor cell before a live stator cell, but it could be wrong (in that case, somebody revert my revert).
Maybe it’s just if you can’t draw a ray that hits rotor cells before non-rotor cells in the bounding box/diamond/octagon.

Regardless, I shouldn’t have reverted the edit when I hardly knew myself- I just had a sort of stupid hunch.
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"

dvgrn
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Moosey wrote:I was using the eater as an example catalyst, so we have a whole lot more space to work with.
...Is this a project worth undertaking, then?
If you can complete the project, the reflector will certainly be notable, and will be a good mechanism to add to the elementary-conduits toolkit -- especially if it's smaller than 50x37 or so. It doesn't look like it will fit inside the bounding box for MikeP's challenge, though -- you'll need some kind of structure to replace the block once it's gone, and just the block and catalyst are already 24 cells high.

I'll be fairly surprised if anything can be made out of this particular reaction, just because the great majority of these hopeful ideas turn out to be dead ends. But it's certainly not impossible that Bellman or CatForce or ptbsearch or catgl or Guam's CollisionsSearch utility could find something to put in that larger red triangle that would just happen to throw a block back to exactly the right place.

You should expect to find at least a few dozen near misses first, though -- i.e., patterns that either don't quite put the block in the right place, or don't quite recover. That's just how these searches usually work; your mileage may vary.
Moosey wrote:My understanding is that a pattern is a billard table if you can’t draw an orthogonal ray through dead cells and hit a rotor cell before a live stator cell, but it could be wrong (in that case, somebody revert my revert).
Maybe it’s just if you can’t draw a ray that hits rotor cells before non-rotor cells in the bounding box/diamond/octagon.

Regardless, I shouldn’t have reverted the edit when I hardly knew myself- I just had a sort of stupid hunch.
I don't think you were particularly wrong, really -- you just weren't particularly right either. Different people have used "billiard table" in different ways. Personally I like your criterion about always having live stator cells before rotor cells, no matter which (orthogonal) direction you approach from. If an object passes that criterion, it's definitely a billiard table, no arguments. So it's a sufficient condition, but may or may not be a necessary one.

Going back to one of the old-guard experts on billiard tables, here's something Dean Hickerson put together in 1997:

Code: Select all

``````#C A collection of 234 billiard tables
#C These are billiard tables found by my program that searches for
#C 'drifters', small sets of changes that move against a stable
#C background.  As far as I know, all of these are new, except for
#C the first 3 p3s, which I found in 3/97 and which led to the idea of
#C writing the program.  (The second p3's rotor is 1/4 of a symmetric
#C oscillator found by Achim Flammenkamp on 7/30/94.  It's in the
#C stamp collection (3.5.3) in a larger form than given here.)
#C
#C The periods that occur are:
#C
#C period   3   4   5   6   7   8  9  10  11  12  13  14  17  22
#C count   35  44  31  66  18  14  7   9   1   4   2   1   1   1
#C
#C Note to historians:  Except for the 3 p3s mentioned above, all of
#C these were found between 3/28/97 and 5/1/97.  I didn't keep track
#C of the individual discovery dates, except:
#C 11.0.0 4/10      12.0.0 4/26      12.0.1 4/27      12.0.2-3 4/20
#C 13.0.0 4/12      13.0.1 4/19      14.0.0 4/21      17.0.0 4/27
#C 22.0.0 4/27
#C Dean Hickerson  5/1/97
x = 352, y = 377
2b2obo112bob2o125bob2o\$2bob2o112b2obo125b2obo44b2o17bobo15b2o2bo\$6b2o
23bo15bo2bo17bo47b2o16b2obo13b2o14bo13b2o24b2o42b2o8bob2o12b2o3bobo10b
o18b2obo14bo2bobo\$6bo11b2o10bobo2bo11b4o11bo2bobobo10b2ob2o32bo16bob2o
12bob3o11bobo11bo2bo4b2o10b2o2b2o2bo43bo8b2obo11bo2bobob2o11b3o13b2o3b
3o13b2o2bo\$7bo5b2o2bo2bo9bob4o9b2o15b4obo2bo8bobobo32bo12bob2obo3b2o
10bo4bo9bobobob2obo6b2o2b2o2bo11bo3bobo43bo24bob2obo11b3o3bo11bo2b3o3b
o9b3o4bob2o\$6b2o5bo2bobobo7b2obo4b2o6bo2bob4o15bobo8bo3bobo30b2o11b2ob
obob2o2bo5bob2ob3o2bo8bo3bobob2o12b2o10bo4bo2b2o42b2o8b3o11b2o2bobob2o
7bo3b4o2bo8bobo3b4o2bo5bo3bobobobobo\$2b2obo8b2obo2b2o7bo2bob2o2bo6b2ob
o4bo7bob2obobob2o6b2o5b3o30bob2o15bobo6b2obo4b2o6b2obo3bo11b2o2bo13b2o
3bobo42b2o7bobo3bo2b2o5bo2bo3bo2bo5bo2bobo4b3o5b2obo2bobo4b3o6bo2bo5bo
2bo\$2bob2o12bo3bo6bobobo2b2o8bo2bob2o8b2obo6bo5bo2b4o4bo29b2obo11b2obo
2b2o9b2obo8b2obobo2bo10bo5b4o6b2o3bobobo43bo7b2obo6bo6b2o6bo6b4ob2o2bo
9bo2b3obo3bo10bobobobobo3bo\$6b2o6b4ob3o6b2obo2b2o10bobobo2b3o10bob2o7b
2o6b3o34b2o12bobo15b2o9bobob2o11b4obo2bo5bo2bobo3bo43bo11bob5o9b5ob2o
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2obo37bo12bobo14bo2bo8bobo18bo10b2o3b3o44b2o10bo15bo4bo9b4ob2obo9b7ob
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125bo48b2o15b2o3bo\$2bob2o112b2obo125b2o4\$15b2obo10b2o14b2o14b2ob2o13b
2ob2o84b2o\$14bobob3o6bo2bo13bo2bo12bobobobo13bobobo83bobob2o13bo17bo
59bo20bo21bo\$14bobo4bo5b2obob2o10bobo4bo8bobo3bo11bobo3b3o44b2o6b2o10b
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2obobobobo7b3obobo4bo42bo2bo6bo8b3ob3o14bobo11bo5bob2o8bo5bo54bo2bo17b
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43bobo3bobo7bobo7bobo5b2o4b2ob2obo7b5obobo9bob4obo53bobob2o15bobob2o
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10bobo2b2o9bo4bo47bo8bo8bo5bo9b4o4bo9bobo6b2o5bo4bo2bo4bo48bobo5bo9bob
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14b3o48bob2ob2ob2o8bob3obo12bo3b2o9bobob5o8b3o6b3o49bo2b2o3bob2o6bo2b
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2o49b2o2bobo13bo3bo10b3o3bo10b2obo5bo10bob4obo48b2obobo3bobob2o7bobobo
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2o14b2ob2o13bo19bo15b5o52bo5bobo12bo5bo2bobo7bob2o5bo2b2o14bo7bo2b4o5b
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168b2o92b2obobo15b2obobo14bob2ob2o2bo11b2ob2o12b3o2bo\$264bo2bo17bo2bo
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23b2obo20b2o\$13b5ob3o8bo7bo7bo5b2o7b2obobobobob2o7bo5bob2o43b2o3bo12bo
2bob2o35b2o2bob2o13bo5bo2bo\$13bo8bo6b2obob2o2bo6b2obobo3bo6bo9bobo5b2o
2b2o2bo46bobobobo8b2obob2ob2o12b6o17bobobo3b2o10bobob2o2bobo\$15bo2b2ob
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2bobo7bo2b4o42bobo3bo2b3o11bo2b6o5bo2bobo3b2obo11bobo5bo2bobo9bob2o4bo
44bo2b2o\$20bobo8b2o3bo10bobob3o10bo4bo2bo6b2o50bo2bo2bo11b2obo7bo6bobo
2bo3bobo11bobo6b2o2b2o5b2obo3bob2o2bo40b3o2bo18b2o12b2o23b2o15bo\$19b2o
b2o9b3o13bobo11b2o5b2o11b2o46b2o6b2o9bo7bo9bobo7bobo7b2o2b2o6bobo7b2ob
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130bo2bobo5b2o13bob2o11bo6bo2b2o6b2o3bobobo15bo8bo37bobobob4o8b3o7bo2b
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o2b2o16b8o35b2obo9bo6bo3b4obo3bo8b2o2b3obob2o6b2o2bobo3b2o6b2ob2obo2b
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ob2o\$135bo2bo5b2obo3bobo6bo2bobob3o13b3o2bo8bo7bo2bo\$134b4o6bobo6bo7bo
8bo7b4o5b2o5bo2bobo3bo2bo60bob2o29b2obo\$134bo12b3obob2o7b3obobo2bo5bo
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obobo8b2obobo5bo8bo2b2obo3bo9bobo3b2obo5b4obob3o166bo4b2obo14bobo20bo\$
13b2o7b2o7bobo3b3obo7b2o4b2ob2o7b2o2b2obo3bo6bo3b2o171b3obob2o15bo21b
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3bo2b2o10bobo3bo7bob3o3b2ob2o8bo4bo14bo3bo\$91b2o43bo3bobo9b2obo4bobo
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29bobo3b3o7bobo5b2o9bobo5bo35bobob3o18b3o2bo11bobo17bo12bobo2bobobo32b
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10bobobobobo8b3obob4o35b2ob2o3bo19bobo12bobo17bobo13bobob2o31b2o4b2o6b
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8bo7b2o6bobo7bo47bo3b2o21bo14bo19b2o14bo35bo5bo7bob2obobo13bobo2bo6b2o
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7b3ob4o39bob2o111bo5bo5b2obo2bobo10b2obo2bobo7bobo7bo10bobob2obo2bobo
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bob2o8bobob2ob2o6bo2bo3b3obob2o6bo11bo14bo\$17b3o10bo4bob2o14b3o11b2o
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17b2o33b2o158bob2o9bobo4bo7b2obobobob2o7b2obob3o3bo2bo24bo2bo6b2o\$31b
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16bo7b3o10b4o14bo3b2o9b3o15bobo43bo2bobo16bo2bobo9b3o13bo2bo13b2obo\$
15bobob2o2bo11bo18bobo2bo7bo5bo14bobo44b3obob2o2bo7bo3b2o2bo8bo16bobo
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35b3o5bob4o7b4o4b2o7bo2b3o9b2o2bobobobobo6bo2b3o3bobo\$14b2obo3b4o7bo
10bo7bo3bobob2o12bobo6bo2bo3bo3bo2bo34bo4bobobo10b2o5b3o2bo5b2obo3bo9b
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2o2bo5bobo3bobobo5b2obo3bo3bob2o37bobobo4bo8b2o4b4o7bo2bo3bob2o5b2obo
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4b2o6bo3b2obobo10b2obob2o36b4obo5b3o10bo2b2o3bo8b2ob2obobo10b3o2bo8b2o
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9b3o3bo14bobo38bo2b2obob3o13bobo2bo12bo3bo2bo12bobo12bobo4bo50b3ob4o
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44bobo2bo13bo2b2o12bobobobo14bo13bobo2bo48b2obo17bobo17bobo4bob2o8b2ob
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2obo9bo8bo6b2obo3bo5bo3bob2o6bob2obob2ob2o5b2ob3o4bo2bo40b2obo2bob2o
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o2bo5bo2bo5bobo4b3obo8b2obo4bo8bobobo5bobobo6b2obo2bobobo17bo16bob2o5b
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4b2o7b2obo2bo4b3o8b3o5b3o9bo4bo2bo19b2obo8bo3bobo7bo2bob2o6bo2b2o3b2o
6b2obo4bo8bo2bo3bobo\$16b7o12b4o12bobo2bo4bo13bo15b3obo22bob2o8bo2bobo
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21b2o4b2o5b2obo10bobob5o7bo6bo6b2o6bob2o13bo48b2obo12b2o47bo2bo14b2ob
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38b2o4b2o22b2obo25b2obobo64bo5bo11b4o11bobobo14bo2bo2bo5bo3b3o11b4o2bo
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11bobo3bobo6bo2b5o2bo\$20bo18b3o11b2o13bo18b2o162bo6bo2b2o3b3o11bo5bobo
5bo3b2o12bobobobobo8bo5bo\$20b3o14b2o3bo10bo13bobo15b3o164bo11b2o15b5o
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66b2o8b3o2bo16bo13bo16b5o13bo\$17bobob2o9bo2bobo2bo10b3o3bo7b2o2bob2o
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8b2o2b2o4bo9bo4b2o2bo6bobo2b2o10bo4bobo43bobo8bo2bob2o11bo2b2o11bobo5b
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41bobobo7b2obobo11bo2bo2b3o8b2ob5o12b2o2b2o2b2o\$18b3o9b2o2b2o13bobo2bo
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14b3o15b3obob2o8b2ob2obobo10bo2bob4o6bo2bo3b2o39bo6b2o6b2o4b2o11bo2bo
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36bo95b3o12bo8bo10bo2b2o8b2obobo5bo10b2o63bo10bobobob2o\$132bo16b4obobo
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13b2obob2ob2o10b4o11bobo2b2o5bobob2obo2bo14bo45b5obo16b2o9bob4obo11b2o
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132bobo35bo\$56b2o12b2o2bobo17b2obo\$18bobo15b2o12bo2bo2bo14bo2b2obo17b
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3bob2o27bo2bob2o10bob2obobo15bo11b2obobob2o8b2obo3bobob2o32bo5bo7b3obo
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o3b3o10b4o2bo11bo5bo8bob2obo2b3obo8b4o3bob2o31bo5bo8bobobobob2o6bobobo
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2bo14bo2bobo11b3o58b2o10b2o5bo5bobob2o6b2ob2obobo8b2o3bob2obobo5bo2b3o
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b4obo2bo5bob3o3bo2bo5bo2bo3bo2b2o6bo2bo4bo2bo6b2o5b2obo49bo2bob4o4bo8b
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2b2o2bo7b2ob2obo11b4o2b2o50b2o2bo5bob2o8bobo4bo8b2obobo4bo2b2o5b2obobo
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19bobobo7bo2bobobo11b3obobobo9b2o4bobo8bo2bob2o2b2o45bo8bo2b3o15bobo4b
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33bobo13b2o19b2o42bobobobob2o7bo4bobobo8bo2b3o3bobo10b2o5bo7bo2bobo\$
53bobo78bobo3bobo8bob2o3bobo9bo5bobobo9bo5b2o10b2o3b2o\$54bo74b2obobobo
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144b2o28bo2b2obo\$21bo17bo264bo2b2obo24bobob2o\$20bobo15bobo2bo8b2o20b2o
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10b2obob2obo5b2obobo42bo2bobobo3bo11bo7bo7bob2o4b2o7b6o7bob6o46bo12b3o
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12bo2bo16bo10b2o14bobo56bo9bo4bo10b2o3bo4b2o5b3o2b3o5b2obob2o2bo35bo4b
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16b2o45b2o47b3o3b3o13bobob2o6bo3b2o3bobo9bo10bobo3bob2o33bo5bob2o10b2o
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15b5o2bobo8bob2o13bo5bo11bo5bo15b3obo38bobob2o11b4o2bo11bob3o4b2o10bob
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27b2o4b2obo10bobobo2b2o\$130b2o2bobob4o8b2o4bobobo7b2o4bob2o2bo8bobob2o
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12b5o2bo10bo2b2obo28b2o17bo2bob2o\$135bobo4b3o5bo9b2o9bo2b2o14bo4b2o9b
2o34bo18b2o\$135b2o7bo96bo9b2o\$241b2o8b2o5\$139bo\$138bobo14b2ob2o35b2o\$
138bobo10b2obobobo3b2o13bo18b3o\$136b2obob2o8b2obobo3bo2bo12bobo15bo4bo
10b2o4b2o\$135bobo3bobo10bobo2b4o11b3obo14bob2o2bo9bob3o2bo\$135bobobo3b
o7b4obobo14bo4b2o13bobobob2o8bo4bobo\$133b2o2bob2o2b2o5bo8b2o11bob3o3bo
10bobob2o2bo6b2obo3bo2b2o25b2o2bob2o\$132bo8bobo6b5o3bo2bo10bo5b2obo8bo
bobo4bo6b2obo4bobo27bo2b2obo12bo\$132b4o5bobo16b2o7b2obo2b2o3bo9bobo3b
3o11b5obo26bo7b2o9bobo\$130b2o10bo7b2o2bobo12b2obo4b3o9b2obobo20bo27b2o
7bo9bobo3b2o\$129bo2bob2o4b2o8bo2bobo17b3obo18b5o11bobo36bo7b2obob2o3bo
\$130b2o3bo3bo12b2obobo18bo12b2ob4o4bo11b2o29b2o6b2o7bobo6bob2o\$132b2o
2b2obo13bo2b2o17bo11bo2bo4bo2bo45bo4b2o7bo2bobob3obo2bo\$132bo5bo12bobo
21b2o10b2o3b3o3b2o43bo6bo7b2obobo4bobo\$133b5o13b2o38b2o50b2o4bo11bobo
2b2o2b2o\$135bo113b2o10bobo3bobo\$243b2o2b2o13b2obobobo\$244bo3bo15bobobo
\$243bo3bo16bobo\$171b2o70b2o2b2o16b2o\$171bo20b2o18bo\$132b2o17b2o15b2obo
19bo2bo16bobo\$132bo2bo15bo2b2o4b2o6bo2b2o14bo2bob2obo14bo2bo\$133b2ob2o
14b2ob3o2bo9bo4bo2b2o7b4o4bo13bob2ob2o\$129b2o3bo2bobo8b2o5bo2bobo7bob
5obo2bo11bobobob2o8b3o4bo\$129bo2bobob4o8bo2bobo3b2ob2o5bobo6bobo8b2o2b
ob3o2bo7bo3bobobo\$131b2obo5b2o8b2obo6bo6bo2b5obob2o6bo2bo6bo8bob2obo2b
o\$132bo2b5o2bo8bo2b5obo7b2o6bo3bo5b2obob5o9bo5b2o\$132bo8bo7bobo7bo10bo
3bo2bobo7bobo14b2obob2o\$133b3o2b3o8b2o5b3o9b2o2bobob2ob2o6bo2b4o11bobo
2bo\$135bo2bo17bo12bob2obobo11bobo2bo11bo2bo28b2obo6b2obo\$169bo2bobobo
12bo16b2o29bob2o6bob2o10b2o5b2o\$170b2o3bo65b2o8b2o8bo7bo\$241bo9bo6b2ob
o7bob2o\$242bo9bo5bo2b2o5b2o2bo\$241b2o8b2o6b2o3bo5b2o\$237b2obo6b2obo10b
2o3b4o\$237bob2o6bob2o10bo7bo\$133bo101b2o8b2o15b7o\$132bobo100bo9bo\$132b
obo101bo9bo17b3o\$130b2o2b2o99b2o8b2o16bo3bo\$129bobobo2bo100b2obo6b2obo
12b2ob2o\$129bo2bobob2o99bob2o6bob2o\$130bobo4bo\$131bobob2o2b2o\$133bobo
3bobo\$133bobo5bo\$134bo6b2o!``````
Most of these are enclosed to one degree or another, but quite often there's an orthogonal line in to the rotor from some direction or other. And just occasionally a rotor may even be completely open on one side. Seems like about the only thing we can safely say is that there are never any rotor cells at the edge of these oscillators' bounding boxes.

I don't think anybody objected in 1997 when Dean Hickerson called all 234 of these things "billiard tables". Dean didn't include any period-2 stuff in the collection, probably because they were so dead common they just weren't very interesting. There _was_ some objection raised back in 1995 to calling a beacon a billiard table, just because it seemed too small. Conway's original idea was apparently "largish, artificial, walled-in structures", so natural denizens of soup like beacons need not apply.

I seem to remember other people also occasionally used "billiard table" to refer to open-but-concave things like test tube baby, though.

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Where IS that pi-2G from, anyways? It seems that catalyst pops up quite a bit but I can’t find the first mention of it on the forums.
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

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testitemqlstudop
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

I would like an actual synthesis using RCT of any object with 35 gliders, in RLE / MC format, and NOT some convoluted proof-of-concept that it "may work". When simulated in Golly to completion, it should synthesize the object in concern and nothing else.

dvgrn
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

testitemqlstudop wrote:I would like an actual synthesis using RCT of any object with 35 gliders, in RLE / MC format, and NOT some convoluted proof-of-concept that it "may work". When simulated in Golly to completion, it should synthesize the object in concern and nothing else.
I'd like that, too, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

Someone would probably have to do several years of hard labor, figuring out specific seeds for all the maybe-specialized Corderships needed to clean up the long chains of junk left behind by the GPSEs, the BLSE, and the Sakapuffer, and then more seeds for the meteor showers that clean up whatever is left behind at the ends of those debris chains. Plus the seed for the gliders that stop the BLSE, I guess.

I think calcyman estimated that something like a 64,000-bit recipe might be runnable by HashLife. But my best estimate is that that would be barely enough to construct a really minimal object in the canonical way -- something like a pulsar, let's say, without worrying at all about cleaning up all of the mess.

Building any object, especially one that ordinarily needs more than 35 gliders, and then doing all the cleanup, will probably need something closer to 100 million bits encoded in the approaching Sakapuffer. That's just my guess, but if it's anywhere near right, then we aren't going to be running a full cleaned-up RCT recipe to completion in Golly in the foreseeable future. I would guess we'll have given up on fossil fuels and will be doing everything with renewable energy before we see a complete RCT simulation.

testitemqlstudop
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

Then what about the original 385 coronership/gun recipe? That should be easier to clean up, and we can generalize that to the 35 glider recipe.

Also, I'm the kind of skeptic that doesn't believe something before seeing it in action.

calcyman
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

I did some timing experiments in lifelib for running Dean Hickerson's (forward!) caber tosser for large numbers of generations:

Code: Select all

``````\$ python cttest.py 1024
Instruction set AVX2 detected
0.2964649200439453

\$ python cttest.py 2048
Instruction set AVX2 detected
0.5929415225982666

\$ python cttest.py 4096
Instruction set AVX2 detected
1.1848986148834229

\$ python cttest.py 8192
Instruction set AVX2 detected
2.3648428916931152

\$ python cttest.py 16384
Instruction set AVX2 detected
4.730949401855469

\$ python cttest.py 32768
Instruction set AVX2 detected
9.55366039276123

\$ python cttest.py 65536
Instruction set AVX2 detected
18.842262268066406
``````
The time grows logarithmically; it takes twice as long to run the pattern for 2 ** 65536 generations as it does to run it 2 ** 32768 generations. So this sort of thing could be possible in HashLife.

But really we want something more like HashLife ** 2. I'll talk to Tom Rokicki and see if this has any chance of working.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

dvgrn
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

calcyman wrote:I did some timing experiments in lifelib for running Dean Hickerson's (forward!) caber tosser for large numbers of generations...
The time grows logarithmically; it takes twice as long to run the pattern for 2 ** 65536 generations as it does to run it 2 ** 32768 generations. So this sort of thing could be possible in HashLife.
A full RCT will have to track the incredible amount of debris from the various puffers as well. Each increase in recipe size means only a logarithmic increase in memory use for storing the GPSEs' debris, so that will probably be manageable.

The BLSE debris is a bit more complicated, though. A 35-glider recipe will do non-periodic damage to the leftover blocks, and toward the end of the recipe there will be gliders passing close by multi-million-cell lengths of this perforated debris chain on both sides, forward and then back on the other side. I think a standard HashLife implementation will get slowed down by this more and more as the debris chain gets longer, so that there will be much more than a logarithmic increase in simulation time each time the recipe doubles in length.

There isn't a way to re-work the design so that we get an elbow block back at the end of each cycle of crystal growth and decay... is there? It would be really nice to be able to leave out the BLSE entirely.
testitemqlstudop wrote:Then what about the original 385 [Cordership]/gun recipe? That should be easier to clean up, and we can generalize that to the 35 glider recipe.

Also, I'm the kind of skeptic that doesn't believe something before seeing it in action.
It might even make sense to allow up to say 999 gliders, and also build the self-destruct circuitry for the guns as part of the initial recipe.

Otherwise, even if you're building something simple like a pulsar, the great majority of the incoming bits would be needed to build the self-destruct circuitry that has to be included with every construction. That might still push the incoming Cordership out far enough that it would be very time-consuming to simulate the pattern to completion.

Moosey
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### Re: Thread for basic questions

If you can’t build a pulsar reasonably, could you do a proof of concept to just synthesize the first non-nothing object the RCT can make, with out worrying about all the junk to clean up?

Also, I’m assuming that 35 gliders for any object means:
34 Gs to build the UCC, ready to interpret the final G.
1 more to give instructions. Or something along those lines
Last edited by Moosey on July 5th, 2019, 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"