## Soup search results

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.
Hdjensofjfnen
Posts: 1370
Joined: March 15th, 2016, 6:41 pm
Location: r cis θ

### Re: Soup search results

Sorry, can anyone explain the difference between C1 and G1?
"A man said to the universe:
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'" -Stephen Crane

Code: Select all

``````x = 7, y = 5, rule = B3/S2-i3-y4i
4b3o\$6bo\$o3b3o\$2o\$bo!
``````

Moosey
Posts: 2792
Joined: January 27th, 2019, 5:54 pm
Location: A house, or perhaps the OCA board. Or [click to not expand]
Contact:

### Re: Soup search results

Hdjensofjfnen wrote:Sorry, can anyone explain the difference between C1 and G1?
G1 only saves soups with interesting stuff.
I am a prolific creator of many rather pathetic googological functions

My CA rules can be found here

Also, the tree game
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"

Hdjensofjfnen
Posts: 1370
Joined: March 15th, 2016, 6:41 pm
Location: r cis θ

### Re: Soup search results

Moosey wrote:
Hdjensofjfnen wrote:Sorry, can anyone explain the difference between C1 and G1?
G1 only saves soups with interesting stuff.
So that would increase the search speed?
"A man said to the universe:
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'" -Stephen Crane

Code: Select all

``````x = 7, y = 5, rule = B3/S2-i3-y4i
4b3o\$6bo\$o3b3o\$2o\$bo!
``````

Apple Bottom
Posts: 1027
Joined: July 27th, 2015, 2:06 pm
Contact:

### Re: Soup search results

Hdjensofjfnen wrote:Sorry, can anyone explain the difference between C1 and G1?
Please, post in the right thread. There's no need to ping everyone who's subscribed to this one, on the assumption that the only new posts will be for interesting new objects. Basic questions don't belong here.
If you speak, your speech must be better than your silence would have been. — Arabian proverb

Catagolue: Apple Bottom • Life Wiki: Apple Bottom • Twitter: @_AppleBottom_

Proud member of the Pattern Raiders!

Ian07
Posts: 393
Joined: September 22nd, 2018, 8:48 am

### Re: Soup search results

Hdjensofjfnen wrote:Sorry, can anyone explain the difference between C1 and G1?
Ditto what Apple Bottom said, but to give a more specific answer, the G1 search uses a GPU to increase the speed of the search. The GPU runs soups but does not census them on its own; instead, it looks for soups meeting one of the following criteria:
• The population does not become periodic with period 6 within 12,000 generations.
• The pattern, excluding escaping spaceships, escapes the boundaries of the finite universe it's simulated in.
These soups are then simulated by the CPU afterwards to get a full census since they're considered "interesting." This means that the GPU considers high-period oscillators/spaceships, methuselahs, and megasized soups interesting, but ignores still lifes, low-period oscillators, and diehards.

testitemqlstudop
Posts: 1241
Joined: July 21st, 2016, 11:45 am
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### Re: Soup search results

Sorry for the profound necropost, but to just comment on this:
calcyman wrote:
testitemqlstudop wrote:wow, congratulations!

(so much for the 42K is the answer to life)
Interestingly, 42 now has a double special significance in Catagolue:
• The last time there was a contiguous range of still-life bit counts was {..., 40, 41, 42};
• The last time there was a contiguous range of methuselah bins was {..., 40, 41, 42};
and, with high probability, that will remain the case forever.
There's a strong bias on even-bitted still lives, anyways, as a common way they form (i.e. cloverleaf) is by the soup attaining some form of symmetry. Look in any census with symmetry (excl. 2x128, 4x64 and 8x32), and you'll see that the last few rows in the "still life" column are dominated (90% ~ 100%) by even-bitted still lives.

Furthermore, "forever" is quite a long time; this (the most common xs43 in D8_1) seems bound to occur soon, given that C1 has 20x the amount of soups as D8_1:

Code: Select all

```x = 11, y = 12, rule = B3/S23 bo7bo\$obo5bobo\$o2bo3bo2bo\$b3o3b3o2\$b3o3b3o\$o3bobo3bo\$obobobobobo\$b2obobob2o\$ 4bobo\$4bobo\$5bo!```

testitemqlstudop
Posts: 1241
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### Re: Soup search results

When alphabet soup searching (soup searching with words), I arguably found the fourth occurrence of cis-boat-with-tail-siamese-long-boat-with-tail (xs17_xggka53z6a43):

Code: Select all

``````x = 39, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
b3ob4o2b2o3b3ob4ob4ob4ob4o\$o4bo4bo2bobo4bo2bo2bo3bo2bobo\$b2o2b3o2b4o2b
2o2bo2bo2bo3b4ob3o\$3bobo4bo2bo4bobo2bo2bo3bo4bo\$3o2b4obo2bob3o2bo2bob
4obo4b4o!
[[ STOP 1139 ]]
``````
A weird object forms at T=1139.

Posts: 1930
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: Soup search results

testitemqlstudop wrote:A weird object forms at T=1139.
The core junk reaction is incredibly simple:

Code: Select all

``````x = 10, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
6b2o\$5bo2bo\$4bo4bo\$5bo2bo\$6b2o\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o!
[[ STOP 30 ]]
``````
Cleaning the top is easy:

Code: Select all

``````x = 14, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
11bo\$11bobo\$11b2o7\$6b2o\$5bo2bo\$4bo4bo\$5bo2bo\$6b2o\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o!
[[ STOP 30 ]]
``````
Not sure how to fix the left, perhaps somebody could throw gliders at it and see if anything good pops out.
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

calcyman
Posts: 2108
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Soup search results

testitemqlstudop wrote:There's a strong bias on even-bitted still lives, anyways, as a common way they form (i.e. cloverleaf) is by the soup attaining some form of symmetry. Look in any census with symmetry (excl. 2x128, 4x64 and 8x32), and you'll see that the last few rows in the "still life" column are dominated (90% ~ 100%) by even-bitted still lives.

Furthermore, "forever" is quite a long time; this (the most common xs43 in D8_1) seems bound to occur soon, given that C1 has 20x the amount of soups as D8_1:
But to obtain a contiguous range, since we have the 56-bit cloverleaf interchange, we'd need to observe still-lifes of bit-counts {43, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55} before any 58-or-higher still-life occurs. That's highly implausible.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

testitemqlstudop
Posts: 1241
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### Re: Soup search results

Half of your prediction is already off, with the appearance of a methuselah_43k in the G1 census:

http://gol.hatsya.co.uk/object/methuselah_43k/b3s23

44k and 45k have ("arguably naturally") occurred in C1 and 2x128, respectively.

As for a 43-bit still life, I am sure it will occur soon, before a still life < 56 bits appears.
(It may have appeared in a g1 soup already)

calcyman
Posts: 2108
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Soup search results

testitemqlstudop wrote:Half of your prediction is already off, with the appearance of a methuselah_43k in the G1 census:
No, because there are still gaps at 45k and 46k. My prediction is that more gaps will be created (beyond 47k) before you manage to fill those.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

testitemqlstudop
Posts: 1241
Joined: July 21st, 2016, 11:45 am
Location: in catagolue
Contact:

### Re: Soup search results

45k is already seminatural (2x128 is not symmetric.)

As for 46k, I am very sure it would occur before <47k occurs.

Furthermore, I have reason to believe that cloverleaf interchange WILL be the highest bitted SL for several years to come unless some astounding SHA-256 hash comes. CI has not just D2_1 symmetry but D8_1 symmetry making it a high attractor (in terms of 100 trillion soups, anyhow) and there is plenty of time for 43 to at least 50 to fill.

... And oh, you meant contiguous as "appearing at the same time", not just "consecutive appearing range"? Ah...

testitemqlstudop
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### Re: Soup search results

Also, on this:
Macbi wrote:
calcyman wrote:Indeed. I wouldn't classify that as a methuselah unless the reaction managed to destroy the switch-engines (as was the case for the 750k methuselah from b38s23/C1).
I see that there's something different about this pattern compared to other methuselahs, but I don't see why destroying the switch-engines or not would be an important part of the requirements. Is it because you don't think that an infinite-growth pattern can be said to have stabilised? I would say that an infinite growth pattern can be considered stabilised so long as it is growing in a regular way. (The phrase "regular way" isn't precisely defined, but I think switch engines definitely satisfy it.)
This got me thinking - what if an unusual type of breeder can be made, such that some switch engines and junk together fire the correct gliders backwards to create the same junk and switch engines again?

Of course, this is highly improbable, but at least it may be possible for the backward-firing gliders to spawn one new switch engine.

Hdjensofjfnen
Posts: 1370
Joined: March 15th, 2016, 6:41 pm
Location: r cis θ

### Re: Soup search results

testitemqlstudop wrote:A weird object forms at T=1139.
The core junk reaction is incredibly simple:

Code: Select all

``````x = 10, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
6b2o\$5bo2bo\$4bo4bo\$5bo2bo\$6b2o\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o!
[[ STOP 30 ]]
``````
Cleaning the top is easy:

Code: Select all

``````x = 14, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
11bo\$11bobo\$11b2o7\$6b2o\$5bo2bo\$4bo4bo\$5bo2bo\$6b2o\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o!
[[ STOP 30 ]]
``````
Not sure how to fix the left, perhaps somebody could throw gliders at it and see if anything good pops out.
Almost.

Code: Select all

``````x = 28, y = 26, rule = B3/S23
19bo\$19bobo\$19b2o\$25bo\$7bo17bobo\$8b2o15b2o\$7b2o\$2bo\$3b2o\$2b2o3\$20b2o\$
19bo2bo\$18bo4bo\$19bo2bo\$20b2o\$15b2o\$14bo2bo\$b2o12b2o\$obo\$2bo2\$4bo\$4b2o
\$3bobo!
``````
"A man said to the universe:
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'" -Stephen Crane

Code: Select all

``````x = 7, y = 5, rule = B3/S2-i3-y4i
4b3o\$6bo\$o3b3o\$2o\$bo!
``````

Jormungant
Posts: 127
Joined: May 27th, 2016, 1:01 am

### Re: Soup search results

Intriguing variations?

Code: Select all

``````x = 215, y = 52, rule = LifeHistory
8\$36.A\$34.2A\$13.A21.2A\$14.2A50.A50.A81.A\$13.2A51.A.A48.A.A77.2A\$66.2A
49.2A57.A21.2A\$72.A50.A53.2A\$54.A17.A.A30.A17.A.A50.2A\$55.2A15.2A32.
2A15.2A\$54.2A49.2A\$49.A\$50.2A\$27.2A20.2A\$26.A2.A\$25.A4.A\$26.A2.A37.2A
49.2A70.2A\$27.2A37.A2.A47.A2.A68.A2.A\$22.2A41.A4.A45.A4.A66.A4.A\$21.A
2.A41.A2.A47.A2.A68.A2.A\$22.2A43.2A49.2A70.2A\$62.2A49.2A70.2A\$61.A2.A
47.A2.A68.A2.A\$62.2A49.2A70.2A\$7.3AB\$9.A\$7.BA14.2A\$22.2A146.3AB\$24.A
147.A\$63.2A49.2A54.BA14.2A\$62.2A49.2A70.2A\$64.A50.A71.A
``````

wildmyron
Posts: 1312
Joined: August 9th, 2013, 12:45 am

### Re: Soup search results

testitemqlstudop wrote:A weird object forms at T=1139.
The core junk reaction is incredibly simple:

Code: Select all

``````x = 10, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
6b2o\$5bo2bo\$4bo4bo\$5bo2bo\$6b2o\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o!
[[ STOP 30 ]]
``````
Cleaning the top is easy:

Code: Select all

``````x = 14, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
11bo\$11bobo\$11b2o7\$6b2o\$5bo2bo\$4bo4bo\$5bo2bo\$6b2o\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o!
[[ STOP 30 ]]
``````
Not sure how to fix the left, perhaps somebody could throw gliders at it and see if anything good pops out.
Three extra gliders yields xs21_bd0mkk8z3543. Using a 4G reaction for the hive + spark (from popseq) requires a total of 8G.

Code: Select all

``````x = 42, y = 39, rule = B3/S23
bo\$2bo36bo\$3o36bobo\$39b2o11\$15bo\$16bo\$14b3o3\$31bo\$31bobo\$31b2o2\$27bo\$
27bobo\$27b2o\$24bo\$25bo\$23b3o2\$2bo\$2b2o\$bobo4\$b3o\$3bo\$2bo!``````
The latest version of the 5S Project contains over 226,000 spaceships. There is also a GitHub mirror of the collection. Tabulated pages up to period 160 (out of date) are available on the LifeWiki.

Gustone
Posts: 529
Joined: March 6th, 2019, 2:26 am

### Re: Soup search results

Bun on bun AND dock on block from the FIRST ctrl5 soup

Code: Select all

``````x = 58, y = 43, rule = B3/S23
bob2ob2obobob2o3bo2bobobobobo6bobo2bob2o5bo6bo\$b2obo2b5o2bo2bo3bo2b3ob
o2bo2b3ob4o2bo3b2o2bob3o\$2o2b3obo6bobo3b2o3b2ob2o2b5ob2o3b3o7bob2o\$13b
o4b2o3bob2o3b2ob4obobo3bob3o2bo3b2o\$obobobo4b3ob4o4b2o2bob2ob2ob2obo4b
obob2ob4o3bo\$3b2ob2obo2bob2obob2o2b3o2bob6o2bob2ob2ob4obo2bob2o\$b3o3b
2o3bob2o2b3ob2ob5obo4bobo2bob3ob2ob3obobo\$2obob5o2bob3o3b4o2b4o2b4o5b
4o2bob2obo2b2o\$o2bo2b8o2b2obob2ob3obo3bo4bob3obo4b2ob3obobo\$b2ob3o2b3o
2bo2b3ob4obobobo2b2o2bob3obo4b4o3bo\$2bobobobob6o2b3obo3b2ob4ob2obo3bob
o3bob2ob2o2b2o\$2b3o4b2o2b2obob2o6b4obo2bo2b6obo2bo6b3o\$2obo2bobob2o2bo
2b2o2bo2b4o2bo2bo3bobo3bobobo2bob3o2bo\$3o4bobo2b2o2b3ob2obo2bob2o2bobo
4bobo2b5o3bob3o\$b2o2bo2b2ob2o3b4ob4o5bobo3bob3o3b4ob2o3b4o\$bob2ob2o2b
2o2bobo3b2obo3bo7b3ob2ob4obo2bobobo\$bobo3b3obo2b3o2bob2o2bob2ob2o3b2o
2bob3ob2ob2o4bobo\$b2obo2bo2bo6bobobo3bobo2b3o2bo2b2ob9o2bo2bobo\$ob2o2b
o3bob3o4bobo3b5ob2obo3bo2b3o2b2o8bo\$ob2obo2bo2b5o3b2o2bobo3b6ob2ob3o3b
3ob3o3b3o\$5o3b3o2b2o2bo2bo2b2o3b3ob2ob4o2b3obobo2bobobo2bo\$2bobobobo4b
2o2b8o2bo2bob2o4b3obobo3b7ob2o\$2bo2b2obobo2b2o2bob3o2bo4bo4b2o2bob3o2b
4o2b2ob2o\$o2b2ob3o7bobo2bo2bobobo2bo2bob3ob2obo2b2o2bob2o2bo\$3bo2b4ob
5obo2b3obob4o4b2o2bo2b2o2bob2ob2o4bo\$bo4b8obobob2o2b2o6bobob2o3b9o2b2o
bo\$5b2o3b4o4b2o2b5obobo3bobob3o3b2ob2o3b2o2bo\$b3o4bobob3obo5bob4o2b2o
4b4ob2obo6b2obob2o\$6bo2b2o3bo2bobo3bo2bo3bob4o2b4obobobo3b2o2b2o\$6ob3o
6b4obo2b2o2bo3b6ob2obo4bobob2o3bo\$2o2b3o2bob5ob4o2bo4b2o6b3o2b2ob3o3bo
2b2o2bo\$b2o3bobobob3o2b4o2bob2o2bobob3o2b3o3b2o2bobo3bo\$obobob6obobob
2ob4o2b2ob2ob3o3bo2bo2b4ob4o2b2o\$2b3o3b2obob3ob3o3b3ob2obobo2b4o2b2ob
2o3b3o2b3o\$5bobo3b4o3b3o4bobo6bobo6b2o2bobob6o\$o7bobo2b5ob2ob2o2b2ob3o
5b2o3b2ob2o3b5ob2o\$ob5ob3obo2b2ob8o4b2o2b2o2b2obo2bo4b4obo2bo\$2o5bo2b
2o4b2ob3o3b2ob3ob3o4bo2bobo4b2o2bobo\$obob2o2bo3bob2ob3o2bo4bo4b2o3bo2b
o2bo3bobob6o\$obob2o2bo2b2obobo4bo2b2obobob3obobob6o2bobo3b2obo\$bob2o3b
o2bo3bo2b3o4b3obob3o2bo2bobobobo5b2ob3o\$5b3obobob2ob4obo7bobo2b4o3b2o
2b2ob2ob4o\$b2ob2o5b2o2b5ob2obo2b2o2bo2bo2bob2o5bob2o2bo4bo!
``````

Code: Select all

``````x = 43, y = 9, rule = B3/S23
11bo\$11bobo25bo\$2o9b3o23bobo\$2o11bo27bo\$19bo19b4o\$19bo22bo\$19bo17b3o2\$
21b3o!
``````
Also i think these will fit here

Code: Select all

``````x = 27, y = 7, rule = B3/S23
20bo\$21b2o2bo\$20b2o2bobo\$24bobo\$25bo\$2o\$2o!
``````

Code: Select all

``````x = 17, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
15bo\$14bobo\$bobo9bobo\$bobo9b2o\$b3o6\$2o\$2o!
``````
eurasia

Code: Select all

``````x = 19, y = 2, rule = B3/S23
13o\$12b7o!
``````

Hdjensofjfnen
Posts: 1370
Joined: March 15th, 2016, 6:41 pm
Location: r cis θ

### Re: Soup search results

Gustone wrote:Bun on bun AND dock on block from the FIRST ctrl5 soup
More accurately, that's a trans-rotated R-bee from the predecessor you provided.
"A man said to the universe:
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'" -Stephen Crane

Code: Select all

``````x = 7, y = 5, rule = B3/S2-i3-y4i
4b3o\$6bo\$o3b3o\$2o\$bo!
``````

testitemqlstudop
Posts: 1241
Joined: July 21st, 2016, 11:45 am
Location: in catagolue
Contact:

### Re: Soup search results

This reaction should be able to reduce the most expensive xs20 from 145 to 11 or 10.

Code: Select all

``````x = 22, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
19b2o\$19b2o\$b2o\$o2bo8b2o\$b2o7b2o2bo\$10b2o3bo\$9bo4bo\$10bo\$10bobo3\$16bob
3o\$15bo5bo\$16b5o\$17bo!
``````

mniemiec
Posts: 1065
Joined: June 1st, 2013, 12:00 am

### Re: Soup search results

testitemqlstudop wrote:This reaction should be able to reduce the most expensive xs20 from 145 to 11 or 10. ,,,
The second soup from https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xs ... rz11/b3s23
provides this 11-glider synthesis:

Code: Select all

``````x = 59, y = 31
20bobo\$21boo\$21bo\$28bobo\$28boo\$29bo4bo\$32boo6bo\$20bobo10boo3boo\$21boo
16boo\$21bo\$\$14bobo\$15boo\$15bo\$\$36boo\$35boo\$37bo14booboo\$52boobobbo\$24b
oo31boo\$23boo27boobobo\$25bo26boboobbo\$57boo\$27b3o\$27bo\$28bo\$24b3o\$26bo
\$boo22bo\$obo\$bbo!
``````
EDIT: 10 gliders:

Code: Select all

``````x = 59, y = 27, rule = B3/S23
26bobo\$26boo6bo\$27bo4boo6bo\$33boo3boo\$39boo3\$14bobo\$15boo\$15bo\$20b3o\$
22bo13boo\$21bo13boo\$37bo14booboo\$52boobobbo\$24boo31boo\$23boo27boobobo\$
25bo26boboobbo\$57boo\$27b3o\$27bo\$28bo\$24b3o\$26bo\$boo22bo\$obo\$bbo!
``````

Hdjensofjfnen
Posts: 1370
Joined: March 15th, 2016, 6:41 pm
Location: r cis θ

### Re: Soup search results

This looks like it might be a challenge:

Code: Select all

``````x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
2ob2o2b2obob2obo\$2obobobobob2o\$o4bob2ob2o3bo\$o2b4ob2o3b2o\$2bob2obobobo
b3o\$ob9ob3o\$b7o2b5o\$b3o2b2obob2o2bo\$ob2obo5b2o\$2bo2b2o4bobo\$2o4b2obo4b
2o\$2bob2o2bo2b4o\$2b2o3bob2o2b2o\$2b4o4bobobo\$3bo2bobob3o2bo\$ob4ob2ob3ob
2o!
``````
"A man said to the universe:
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'" -Stephen Crane

Code: Select all

``````x = 7, y = 5, rule = B3/S2-i3-y4i
4b3o\$6bo\$o3b3o\$2o\$bo!
``````

NickGotts
Posts: 86
Joined: November 10th, 2011, 6:20 pm

### Re: Soup search results

dvgrn wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 10:08 am

However, it's definitely true that infinite-growth patterns haven't traditionally been included in the "methuselah" category. Otherwise there are all kinds of difficult cases that would have to be considered, especially from Nick Gotts' old "Patterns with Eventful Histories" blog, from back in the days when weblogs were so new that not many people knew how to use them yet.

I'm not sure if anyone has figured out yet whether this 32-bit pattern ever goes boring, for example:

Code: Select all

``````#C nikk-nikkm1r90-w4s906
#C http://nickgotts-nikk-nikkm1r90-w4s906.blogspot.com/
#C pattern given at http://nickgotts-eventful.blogspot.com/
x = 38, y = 940, rule = S23/B3
6bo\$5bobo\$\$4bobbo\$4boo\$4bo25\$34bobo\$37bo\$33bobbo\$32b3o873\$28bo3bo\$29bo
bo\$30bobbo\$33bo\$33bo24\$o\$bo\$bbo\$bo\$o\$bb3o!``````
I think I'd vote against adding the new two-switch-engine soup to the methuselah list, to avoid opening yet another can of methuselah-worms.
FWIW, my hunch is that all the patterns in the category that one exemplifies will eventually become "boring", either by lapsing into some kind of "predictability without actually having to keep running it" (there must be some way to formalize that concept!) while the arks (switch-engine pairs) continue interacting, or by one of those arks being destroyed. This is because as long as they remain un-boring, these patterns are liable to generate *WSSs that cross in front of an ark, as well as gliders that run parallel and close to them. Sooner or later, there will be a collision that blocks a switch-engine path in a destructive way.

Sometime, I must go back to that old "blog" and reformat it, and maybe resume investigation of the categories of pattern investigated there - but it could be some while...

mniemiec
Posts: 1065
Joined: June 1st, 2013, 12:00 am

### Re: Soup search results

Unfortunately, there are some metrics that apply to methuselahs (e.g. TTS=time to stabilize, EF=evolutionary factor=TTS/initial population, etc.) that rely on a precise point at which "stabilization" is reached; I guess that in patterns like this one, that would be the time at which "boredom" is achieved, which may be difficult to define objectively, let alone measure accurately.