## 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (DONE!)

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.
BlinkerSpawn
Posts: 1969
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (18 SLs remain)

9G 15.839:

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``````x = 47, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
8bo\$9b2o\$8b2o\$12bobo\$12b2o\$13bo27b2o\$7bobo31bobo\$7b2o34bo\$8bo19b2o11bo
b2o\$bo26b2o10bobo2bo\$2bo8bo20b2o7bo2bobo\$3o8bobo17bobo11bo\$11b2o19bo2\$
28b3o\$30bo\$29bo2\$5bo\$3bobo3bo\$4b2o2b2o\$8bobo3b2o\$14bobo\$14bo!
``````
Possibly reducible via constellations.
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

mniemiec
Posts: 1152
Joined: June 1st, 2013, 12:00 am

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (18 SLs remain)

BlinkerSpawn wrote:9G 15.839: ... Possibly reducible via constellations.
This is actually 15.855. The boat and block can be made simultaneously; unfortunately, the block is too close to the forming pi to be useful - it must be added later.

BlinkerSpawn
Posts: 1969
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (17 SLs remain)

Reaction for 15.598:

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``````x = 11, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
8bo\$9bo\$3bo3b3o\$2bobo\$3b2o\$o7bobo\$obo4bo2bo\$2b2o3bo2bo\$2bo4bo2bo\$3bo4b
2o\$4bo!
``````
The lower right can be easily obtained from sparking an R, and anything with an equivalent spark can go on the left.
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

Kazyan
Posts: 988
Joined: February 6th, 2014, 11:02 pm

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (17 SLs remain)

BlinkerSpawn wrote:Reaction for 15.598:

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``````x = 11, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
8bo\$9bo\$3bo3b3o\$2bobo\$3b2o\$o7bobo\$obo4bo2bo\$2b2o3bo2bo\$2bo4bo2bo\$3bo4b
2o\$4bo!
``````
The lower right can be easily obtained from sparking an R, and anything with an equivalent spark can go on the left.
14G solution (the shillelagh takes 4):

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``````x = 48, y = 50, rule = B3/S23
bo\$2bo\$3o5\$8bo\$9bo7bo\$7b3o8bo\$16b3o4\$27bo13bo\$25b2o14bobo\$26b2o13b2o\$
45bo\$44bo\$44b3o4\$24b2o\$24bobo\$26bo\$25bo\$25b2o10\$9bo\$9b2o9bo\$8bobo9b2o\$
19bobo5\$18b2o\$19b2o\$18bo27bo\$45b2o\$45bobo!``````
Tanner Jacobi
Coldlander, a novel, available in paperback and as an ebook.

BlinkerSpawn
Posts: 1969
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (17 SLs remain)

15.934 looks like it shouldn't have been on the list to begin with:

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``````x = 118, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
92bo\$91bo\$91b3o\$89bo\$90bo\$88b3o\$93bo\$92bo\$92b3o\$o3bo106b2o\$b2obobo45b
3o31bo25bo\$2o2b2o42bo3bo34b2o22bo\$21b2o18b2o6b2o2bo7b2o23b2o3b2o18b2o\$
22bo19bo5b2o12bo29bo19bo\$4bobo15bob2o16bob2o16bob2obo24bob2obo14bob2ob
o\$4b2o17bo2bo16bo2bo16b2ob2o19b3o3b2ob2o15b2ob2o\$5bo18bobo17bobo40bo\$
25bo19bo38bo3bo\$b2o81b2o\$obo38b3o39bobo\$2bo40bo\$42bo!
``````
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

gmc_nxtman
Posts: 1149
Joined: May 26th, 2015, 7:20 pm

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (17 SLs remain)

BlinkerSpawn wrote:15.934 looks like it shouldn't have been on the list to begin with:

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``````x = 118, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
92bo\$91bo\$91b3o\$89bo\$90bo\$88b3o\$93bo\$92bo\$92b3o\$o3bo106b2o\$b2obobo45b
3o31bo25bo\$2o2b2o42bo3bo34b2o22bo\$21b2o18b2o6b2o2bo7b2o23b2o3b2o18b2o\$
22bo19bo5b2o12bo29bo19bo\$4bobo15bob2o16bob2o16bob2obo24bob2obo14bob2ob
o\$4b2o17bo2bo16bo2bo16b2ob2o19b3o3b2ob2o15b2ob2o\$5bo18bobo17bobo40bo\$
25bo19bo38bo3bo\$b2o81b2o\$obo38b3o39bobo\$2bo40bo\$42bo!
``````
Here it is in 12 gliders but very bulky:

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``````x = 86, y = 94, rule = B3/S23
83bo\$82bo\$82b3o\$6bo\$7bo\$5b3o\$84bo\$83bo\$83b3o2\$3bo\$4b2o\$3b2o45\$39b2o\$
40b2o\$39bo15b2o\$55bobo\$55bo5\$45bo4bo\$45b2ob2o\$44bobo2b2o8\$35b2o17bo\$
36b2o15b2o\$35bo17bobo11\$78b3o\$78bo\$bo77bo\$b2o\$obo!
``````

BlinkerSpawn
Posts: 1969
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (15 SLs remain)

My 15.1024 synthesis from the 7th optimized by 4 gliders; now 9G:

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``````x = 79, y = 68, rule = B3/S23
19bo\$20bo\$18b3o3\$bo\$2bo\$3o6\$36b2o\$36b2o8\$44b2o\$44bo\$44bobo\$45b2o35\$76b
2o\$76bobo\$76bo3\$63bo\$62b2o\$62bobo!
``````
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

Goldtiger997
Posts: 619
Joined: June 21st, 2016, 8:00 am

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (15 SLs remain)

15.578 in 11 gliders by using an easier method of construction:

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``````x = 39, y = 31, rule = B3/S23
32bo\$31bo\$31b3o\$6bo8bo\$7b2o4bobo\$6b2o6b2o7\$29bo\$27bobo\$28b2o\$37b2o\$36b
2o\$38bo2\$15b3o\$17bo3bo\$16bo2b2o10bo\$20b2o8b2o\$25b2o3bobo\$24b2o\$26bo2\$
9b3o\$3o8bo\$2bo7bo\$bo!
``````
While doing this, I found a tail-adding mechanism.

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``````x = 18, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
3\$10b2o\$11bo\$8bo\$8b2o4b2o\$14b2o\$11b2o\$10b3o\$5bo5b2o\$5b3o6b2o\$8bo5b2o\$
7bo\$7b2o!
``````
Is this new or useful?

BlinkerSpawn
Posts: 1969
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (15 SLs remain)

Goldtiger997 wrote:While doing this, I found a tail-adding mechanism.

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``````QB + beacon = tail
``````
I don't recognize it, but that's not saying much.
Reducible:

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``````x = 11, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
3bo\$2bobo\$2bo2bo\$3b2o4b2o\$9b2o\$6b2o\$5b3o\$o5b2o\$3o6b2o\$3bo5b2o\$2bo\$2b2o
!``````
Also found this:

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``````x = 12, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
4bobo\$5b2o\$5bo4b2o\$10b2o\$7b2o\$2o4b3o\$o6b2o\$b3o6b2o\$4bo5b2o\$b3o\$bo!
``````
(EDIT: Which does nothing in this case because that's a 4G still life and there's a 3G component that does the same thing and without the extra block)
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

mniemiec
Posts: 1152
Joined: June 1st, 2013, 12:00 am

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (14 SLs remain)

BlinkerSpawn wrote:15.934 looks like it shouldn't have been on the list to begin with: ...
gmc_nxtman wrote:Here it is in 12 gliders but very bulky: ...
This also reduces 11.29 to 6 gliders. Is that 4-glider add-siamese-snake converter new? I hadn't seen it before.
Goldtiger997 wrote:15.578 in 11 gliders by using an easier method of construction: ...
I wasn't aware of that 5-glider tail-added. I've added it to my collection.
Goldtiger997 wrote:While doing this, I found a tail-adding mechanism. ... Is this new or useful?
BlinkerSpawn wrote:I don't recognize it, but that's not saying much. Reducible: ...
I didn't recognize it either. The beacon can be replaced by a forming block, for the same cost as a loaf:

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``````x = 42, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
29bo\$29bobo\$29boo\$8bo\$6bobo\$7boo9\$9bo\$oo8bo\$boo5b3o\$o4boo\$4bobo29boo\$
6bo14bo15bo3bo\$19b3o15bob3o\$18bo19bo\$19bo19bo\$18boo18boo!
``````
BlinkerSpawn wrote:Also found this: ... (EDIT: Which does nothing in this case because that's a 4G still life and there's a 3G component that does the same thing and without the extra block)
It's still worth knowing, in case the extra block is needed, e.g. when adding an inducting snake, carrier, or eater, or a siamese snake or canoe.

BobShemyakin
Posts: 214
Joined: June 15th, 2014, 6:24 am

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (14 SLs remain)

15.751 in 14G (New converter on last step):

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``````x = 115, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
2bo55bobo\$3bo54b2o\$b3o45bo9bo\$42bo5bo\$4bobo17bo18b2o3b3o3bo3bo13b2o18b
2o18b2o\$4b2o17bobo16b2o9bobobo14bobo9bo7bobo17bobo\$5bo16bobo27bobo2b3o
8bob2o2bo10bo2bob2o2bo15b2o2bo\$21bobo23bo3bobo14b2obobo9b3o2b2obobo15b
obobo\$3o19bo25bo3bo19bo19bo13bobo3bo\$2bo36b3o4b3o57b2o\$bo39bo44b2o\$40b
o40bobo2bobo\$45bo5bo30b2o2bo\$45b2o3b2o30bo\$44bobo3bobo!
``````
Bob Shemyakin

Extrementhusiast
Posts: 1843
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (14 SLs remain)

15.1001 in fourteen gliders, via improving a known method:

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``````x = 36, y = 30, rule = B3/S23
6bo\$4bobo8bo\$5b2o7bo\$14b3o5\$6bo21b2o\$5bobo21bo\$6bo2b2o18bob2o\$10bo19bo
bo\$10bob2o18bob2o\$11bobo17bobobo\$32bo2\$bo\$b2o\$obo3\$3b3o9b2o\$5bo8b2o\$4b
o11bo2\$9b2o\$8b2o\$10bo8b3o\$19bo\$20bo!
``````
EDIT: 15.960 in nine gliders:

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``````x = 68, y = 65, rule = B3/S23
10bobo\$11b2o\$11bo11\$35b2o\$34bo2bo\$35bobo\$36bo3\$21bo\$20bo40bo\$20b3o37bo
bo\$61bobo\$63b3o\$21b3o38bo3bo\$21bo40b2obobo\$22bo43bo12\$20b2o\$21b2o\$20bo
23b3o\$44bo\$39b2o4bo\$39bobo\$39bo18\$3o\$2bo\$bo!
``````
Yet another glider could be saved if an appropriate three-glider loaf producer was found that also left a bit of debris in the right place to cancel that extra block.
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

BlinkerSpawn
Posts: 1969
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (11 SLs remain)

Luck (n) /lək/: When the first C1 soup you check for 15.839 gives a predecessor like this:

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``````x = 12, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
2ob2o\$2obobo\$4bo\$9b3o\$9bo\$9bo\$5bo4bo\$4bobo\$3b2ob2o\$5bo!
``````
Satisfaction (n) /ˌsadəsˈfakSH(ə)n/: Knowing there's only 10 SLs remaining at 1 glider/bit or above!
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

mniemiec
Posts: 1152
Joined: June 1st, 2013, 12:00 am

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (10 SLs remain)

BlinkerSpawn wrote:Luck (n) /lək/: 1) When the first C1 soup you check for 15.839 gives a predecessor like this: ...
Which leads to this 8-glider synthesis:

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``````x = 102, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
35bo\$36boo5bo\$35boo5boo\$42bobo3\$56bo19bo19bo\$55bobo17bobo17bobo\$56bobo
bbo14bobobbo14bobobbo\$o31bo25b4o16b4o16b4o\$boo19bo7bobo9bo14bo19bo19bo
\$oo19bobo7boo8bobo13bobo17bobo17bobo\$22boo18boo14boo18boo18boo\$33b3o\$
22boo11bo6boo18boo18boo\$b3o18boo10bo7boo18boo18boo\$3bo\$bbo81boo\$4b3o
77bobo\$4bo79bo\$5bo!
``````

Kazyan
Posts: 988
Joined: February 6th, 2014, 11:02 pm

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (10 SLs remain)

15.619 in 11 gliders:

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``````x = 55, y = 47, rule = B3/S23
obo42bo\$b2o41bo\$bo12bo29b3o\$12bobo\$13b2o3\$14bobo32bo\$15b2o32bobo\$15bo
33b2o13\$37b3o\$37bo\$38bo2\$8bo\$8b2o\$7bobo12\$6b2o\$5bobo33b3o8b3o\$7bo33bo
10bo\$42bo10bo\$46b2o\$46bobo\$46bo!``````
Tanner Jacobi
Coldlander, a novel, available in paperback and as an ebook.

gmc_nxtman
Posts: 1149
Joined: May 26th, 2015, 7:20 pm

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (14 SLs remain)

mniemiec wrote: Is that 4-glider add-siamese-snake converter new? I hadn't seen it before.
It was initially seen here.

Sokwe
Moderator
Posts: 1665
Joined: July 9th, 2009, 2:44 pm

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (10 SLs remain)

Kazyan wrote:15.619 in 11 gliders
Not surprisingly, 15.891 can be made in 12 gliders using the same technique:

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``````x = 46, y = 52, rule = B3/S23
34bo\$32b2o\$33b2o2\$29bo\$28bo\$28b3o13\$8bo\$6bobo\$7b2o19b2o\$27b2o\$9b3o17bo
8bo\$11bo24b2o\$10bo26b2o\$21bo\$20bo\$5b2o13b3o\$4bobo\$6bo8\$25b2o\$24b2o\$26b
o8\$b2o\$obo41b2o\$2bo40b2o\$45bo!``````
-Matthias Merzenich

Gamedziner
Posts: 795
Joined: May 30th, 2016, 8:47 pm
Location: Milky Way Galaxy: Planet Earth

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (10 SLs remain)

Sokwe wrote:
Kazyan wrote:15.619 in 11 gliders
Not surprisingly, 15.891 can be made in 12 gliders using the same technique:

Code: Select all

``````x = 46, y = 52, rule = B3/S23
34bo\$32b2o\$33b2o2\$29bo\$28bo\$28b3o13\$8bo\$6bobo\$7b2o19b2o\$27b2o\$9b3o17bo
8bo\$11bo24b2o\$10bo26b2o\$21bo\$20bo\$5b2o13b3o\$4bobo\$6bo8\$25b2o\$24b2o\$26b
o8\$b2o\$obo41b2o\$2bo40b2o\$45bo!``````
You would need one more glider for cleanup.

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``````x = 81, y = 96, rule = LifeHistory
58.2A\$58.2A3\$59.2A17.2A\$59.2A17.2A3\$79.2A\$79.2A2\$57.A\$56.A\$56.3A4\$27.
A\$27.A.A\$27.2A21\$3.2A\$3.2A2.2A\$7.2A18\$7.2A\$7.2A2.2A\$11.2A11\$2A\$2A2.2A
\$4.2A18\$4.2A\$4.2A2.2A\$8.2A!
``````

BlinkerSpawn
Posts: 1969
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:48 pm
Location: Getting a snacker from R-Bee's

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (10 SLs remain)

Gamedziner wrote:
Sokwe wrote:Not surprisingly, 15.891 can be made in 12 gliders using the same technique:

Code: Select all

``rle``
You would need one more glider for cleanup.
The twelfth glider *is* the cleanup glider; there's only eleven shown in Sokwe's synthesis.
LifeWiki: Like Wikipedia but with more spaceships. [citation needed]

Gamedziner
Posts: 795
Joined: May 30th, 2016, 8:47 pm
Location: Milky Way Galaxy: Planet Earth

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (10 SLs remain)

BlinkerSpawn wrote: The twelfth glider *is* the cleanup glider; there's only eleven shown in Sokwe's synthesis.
Oh.

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``````x = 81, y = 96, rule = LifeHistory
58.2A\$58.2A3\$59.2A17.2A\$59.2A17.2A3\$79.2A\$79.2A2\$57.A\$56.A\$56.3A4\$27.
A\$27.A.A\$27.2A21\$3.2A\$3.2A2.2A\$7.2A18\$7.2A\$7.2A2.2A\$11.2A11\$2A\$2A2.2A
\$4.2A18\$4.2A\$4.2A2.2A\$8.2A!
``````

Extrementhusiast
Posts: 1843
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (8 SLs remain)

15.653 in thirteen gliders:

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``````x = 75, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
obo\$b2o33b2o29b2o\$bo27bo6bobo10bo17bobo\$30b2o6bo8b2o20bo\$14b2o13b2o7b
2ob2o5b2o18bob2o\$5bo8b2o23bob2o25bobobobo\$5b2o29b3o30bo3b2o\$4bobo28bo
20bobo\$35b2o15b2o2b2o\$52bobo2bo\$40b2o10bo\$39bobo\$10b2o29bo\$6b2o2bobo
36bo\$5bobo2bo37b2o\$7bo40bobo3\$4b2o\$3bobo\$5bo!
``````
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

mniemiec
Posts: 1152
Joined: June 1st, 2013, 12:00 am

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (8 SLs remain)

Extrementhusiast wrote:15.653 in thirteen gliders: ...
That 14.149 synthesis is nice - I wasn't aware of it (plus the fact that it can be added to existing objects is even better). This mechanism reduces 15.901 from 13 gliders to 11:

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``````x = 109, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
52bo\$52bobo\$52boo3\$50bo\$47bobbobo31bobo\$45bobobboo32boo\$46boo37bo\$83bo
\$84bo\$82b3o\$bbo65boo18boo\$bo49bobo15bo19bo12boo\$b3o47boo13b3o17b3o3boo
9bobbo\$22boo18boo8bo9boobo12bo3boobo5boo10bobobo\$bo19bobo17bobo17bobob
oo12boboboboo6bo10boobo\$boo19bo19bo19bo3bo10b3obbo3bo19bo\$obo53bo9bobo
17bobo17bobo\$55boo10boo18boo18boo\$55bobo!
``````

Extrementhusiast
Posts: 1843
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (7 SLs remain)

15.949 in eight gliders:

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``````x = 40, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
9bobo\$10b2o\$10bo2\$15bo\$15bobo\$obo5bo6b2o\$b2o3b2o\$bo5b2o25bo\$17b2o14bob
o\$16b2o16bobo\$18bo17bo\$35b2ob2o\$36bo2bo\$36bobo\$37bo4\$17b2o\$8b2o6b2o\$9b
2o7bo\$8bo3b3o\$12bo\$13bo!
``````
Mirroring the bottom domino spark also gives 15.951 for the same cost.

EDIT: 15.942 in eleven gliders:

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``````x = 31, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
7b2o18b2o\$7bo19bo\$8bo19bo\$9bo19bo\$3b2o3b2o13b2o5bo\$3bobo17bobob3o\$4bob
o19b2o\$5bo\$10b2o\$9b2o\$3o8bo\$2bo\$bo7b2o\$8bobo\$10bo4\$2b2o\$bobo\$3bo!
``````
EDIT 2: 15.723 in thirteen gliders:

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``````x = 67, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
12bo\$11bo\$11b3o5bo20bo\$17b2o21bobo\$8bo9b2o20b2o\$6b2o\$4bo2b2o\$2bobo39bo
bo3bo\$3b2o34bo4b2o4bobo12b2o\$38bobo4bo4b2o11bo2bo\$38b2o23b2o\$o13bobo
19b2o9b3o11b2o\$b2o11b2o5b3o13bo9bo14bo\$2o13bo5bo14bo11bo12bo\$22bo13bob
o6bo15bobo\$37bobo4b2o16bobo\$38bo5bobo16bo5\$4b2o\$3bobo\$5bo!
``````
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)

mniemiec
Posts: 1152
Joined: June 1st, 2013, 12:00 am

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (7 SLs remain)

Extrementhusiast wrote:15.949 in eight gliders: ... Mirroring the bottom domino spark also gives 15.951 for the same cost.
A slight adjustment also reduces 14.587 from 10 to 8 gliders. (Mirroring it gives 14.585, but that could already be done from 7).

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``````x = 67, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
7bobo37bobo\$7boo38boo\$8bo39bo\$\$3bo39bo\$bobo37bobo\$bboo38boo\$15bobo37bo
bo\$15boo38boo\$oo14bo8boo13boo14bo8boo\$boo21bobo14boo21bobo\$o4b3o16bo
15bo4b3o16bo\$7bo13booboo21bo13booboo\$6bo14bobbo21bo15bobbo\$22bobo37bob
o\$23bo39bo4\$oo43boo\$boo6boo25boo6boo\$o7boo27boo7bo\$4b3o3bo25bo3b3o\$6bo
33bo\$5bo35bo!
``````

Extrementhusiast
Posts: 1843
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 11:24 pm
Location: USA

### Re: 15 in 15: Efficient 15-bit Synthesis Project (5 SLs remain)

Reaction for 15.849, synthesizable in no more than thirteen gliders:

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``````x = 76, y = 65, rule = B3/S23
2bo\$obo\$b2o16\$36b3o7\$34bo11b2o\$33bobo9b2o\$33bo2bo9bo\$34b2o3\$37b2o\$37b
2o3\$40bo\$40bo\$40bo2\$36b3o3b3o2\$40bo\$40bo\$40bo19\$73b2o\$73bobo\$73bo!
``````
I Like My Heisenburps! (and others)