31c/240 caterpillar working notes

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 11th, 2014, 1:59 pm

codeholic wrote:Did you mean something like {backward glider stream + horizontal LWSS produces boat trail}?
Yes, that was one option -- though I hadn't thought of re-using a horizontal *WSS in that way. I was thinking of avoiding the need for backward glider streams from ahead of the block trails, something along these lines:

Code: Select all

x = 4552, y = 850, rule = B3/S23
3512bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$3294b4o213bo300b4o213bo300b4o213bo$3294bo3bo
212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo$3294bo216b4o297bo216b4o297bo
216b4o$102b4o198b4o198b4o2785bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$4b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o
99b2o95b6o$4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$6o99b2o95b6o
99b2o95b6o99b2o$b4o198b4o198b4o23$3392bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$3174b4o
213bo300b4o213bo300b4o213bo$3174bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo
212bo3bo$3174bo216b4o297bo216b4o297bo216b4o$222b4o198b4o198b4o2545bo2b
o514bo2bo514bo2bo$124b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o$120b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b
4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$120b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o$121b4o
198b4o198b4o23$3272bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$3054b4o213bo300b4o213bo300b4o
213bo$3054bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo$3054bo216b4o
297bo216b4o297bo216b4o$342b4o198b4o198b4o2305bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$
244b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o$240b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4o
b2o94b4ob2o$240b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o$241b4o198b4o198b4o23$3152b
o2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$2934b4o213bo300b4o213bo300b4o213bo$2934bo3bo212bo
3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo$2934bo216b4o297bo216b4o297bo216b4o
$462b4o198b4o198b4o2065bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$364b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b
2o95b6o$360b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$360b6o99b2o
95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o$361b4o198b4o198b4o23$3032bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$
2814b4o213bo300b4o213bo300b4o213bo$2814bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo
296bo3bo212bo3bo$2814bo216b4o297bo216b4o297bo216b4o$582b4o198b4o198b4o
1825bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$484b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o$480b4ob2o94b
4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$480b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o$
481b4o198b4o198b4o23$2912bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$2694b4o213bo300b4o213bo
300b4o213bo$2694bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo$2694bo
216b4o297bo216b4o297bo216b4o$702b4o198b4o198b4o1585bo2bo514bo2bo514bo
2bo$604b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o$600b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o
94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$600b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o$601b4o198b4o198b4o23$
2792bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$2574b4o213bo300b4o213bo300b4o213bo$2574bo3bo
212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo$2574bo216b4o297bo216b4o297bo
216b4o$822b4o198b4o198b4o1345bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$724b2o95b6o99b2o95b
6o99b2o95b6o$720b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$720b6o
99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o$721b4o198b4o198b4o23$2672bo2bo514bo2bo514bo
2bo$2454b4o213bo300b4o213bo300b4o213bo$2454bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo
3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo$2454bo216b4o297bo216b4o297bo216b4o$942b4o198b4o
198b4o1105bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$844b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o$840b4o
b2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$840b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o
99b2o$841b4o198b4o198b4o23$2552bo2bo514bo2bo514bo2bo$2334b4o213bo300b
4o213bo300b4o213bo$2334bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo296bo3bo212bo3bo$
2334bo216b4o297bo216b4o297bo216b4o$1062b4o198b4o198b4o865bo2bo514bo2bo
514bo2bo$964b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o$960b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o94b
4ob2o94b4ob2o94b4ob2o$960b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o95b6o99b2o$961b4o198b4o198b
4o8$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
30$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o
13$2228bo$2227b3o$2226bo2b2o$2225b2o$2224b2ob3o$1958bobo263b2o2bo45bob
o$1958bo2bo265b3o44bo2bo$1957bo3b2o262b2o46bo3b2o$1957bo267b2o46bo2$
1957bo2b3o310bo2b3o$1957b2o274bo39b2o$1915b3o41b3o269bobo41b3o$1914bo
2bo41b3o270b2o41b3o$1914b2o2$1916bo2bo$1917b2o147b2o56b2o$1914b2o150b
2o56b2o$1914b3o$1906b2o7bo52b2o314b2o$1906b2o7bo2bo39b2o8b2o262b2o40b
2o8b2o$1916b2o40b2o9bo262b2o40b2o9bo$1970bo315bo$1969b2o314b2o$1968b3o
313b3o$1968b2o307b2o5b2o$1905bo68bo303b2o10bo$1904bobo370bo$1904b2o$
1905bo$1905bo11b3o$1905bo11bo$1918bo6$1908b2o56b2o256b2o56b2o$1908b2o
56b2o256b2o56b2o7$2064b3o$2064bo2bo$2064b2ob2o$2068bo$2061bo2b2ob2o$
1916b2o40b2o102bob4o50b3o111b2o40b2o$1916b2o40b2o157b2o2bo110b2o40b2o$
2116bobob2o$2074b3o42b3o4b3o88b2o$2218b2o$2217bo3$1977b3o$1977bo$1978b
o83b2o64b2o$2062b2o64b2o7$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b
2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$2023bo$2024bo$2022b3o3$2036bobo125bo$2036b2o
124b2o$2037bo125b2o2$2159bo$2160bo$2074b2o40b2o40b3o$2074b2o40b2o17$
1908b2o56b2o98b2o35bo20b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o36bo19b2o98b2o
56b2o$2102b3o3$2084bo$2082b2o$2083b2o6$2074b2o40b2o$2074b2o40b2o110bo$
2227b3o$2226bo2b2o$2225b2o$2224b2ob3o$1958bobo263b2o2bo45bobo$1958bo2b
o265b3o44bo2bo$1957bo3b2o262b2o46bo3b2o$1957bo267b2o46bo2$1957bo2b3o
310bo2b3o$1957b2o274bo39b2o$1915b3o41b3o269bobo41b3o$1914bo2bo41b3o
270b2o41b3o$1914b2o2$1916bo2bo$1917b2o147b2o56b2o$1914b2o150b2o56b2o$
1914b3o$1906b2o7bo52b2o314b2o$1906b2o7bo2bo39b2o8b2o262b2o40b2o8b2o$
1916b2o40b2o9bo262b2o40b2o9bo$1970bo315bo$1969b2o314b2o$1968b3o313b3o$
1968b2o307b2o5b2o$1905bo68bo303b2o10bo$1904bobo370bo$1904b2o$1905bo$
1905bo11b3o$1905bo11bo$1918bo6$1908b2o56b2o256b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o
256b2o56b2o7$2064b3o$2064bo2bo$2064b2ob2o$2068bo$2061bo2b2ob2o$1916b2o
40b2o102bob4o50b3o111b2o40b2o$1916b2o40b2o157b2o2bo110b2o40b2o$2116bob
ob2o$2074b3o42b3o4b3o88b2o$2218b2o$2217bo3$1977b3o$1977bo$1978bo83b2o
64b2o$2062b2o64b2o7$1908b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o
56b2o98b2o56b2o$2023bo$2024bo$2022b3o3$2036bobo125bo$2036b2o124b2o$
2037bo125b2o2$2159bo$2160bo$2074b2o40b2o40b3o$2074b2o40b2o17$1908b2o
56b2o98b2o35bo20b2o98b2o56b2o$1908b2o56b2o98b2o36bo19b2o98b2o56b2o$
2102b3o3$2084bo$2082b2o$2083b2o6$2074b2o40b2o$2074b2o40b2o!
But I don't think this is as good as your design. My plan was to build and activate the *WSSes with forward rakes -- so the forward glider streams would have to cross quite a few active horizontal *WSS streams, at least in this design where all the *WSSes are in the same row.

Each LWSS-HWSS pair can be arbitrarily adjusted, and with this particular collision the block trails can be built in any order. So maybe there's a way to keep all the *WSSes in safe zones somehow. All I know at the moment is that the above spacing causes a bad G/HWSS interaction almost immediately...!
codeholic wrote:By the way, as you may know, boats can also be used as trails (but no other single spartan objects, I did an exhaustive gencols search).
Good to know. I had just noticed this morning that it worked to swap in a boat, but didn't do a thorough search beyond that.

EDIT: A rough diagram reassures me somewhat, that it might be possible to avoid forward glider/horizontal *WSS crossings, at the cost of laying out larger and larger right triangles at the head of the spaceship. The *WSSes should be able to get past any columns of untriggered seeds, since the seeds are edge-shooters...

-- I have the feeling I'm still missing an obvious conflict, but I don't see it immediately. Anyway, this design definitely needs forward rakes, plus some kind of helix at the head of each seed construction column to provide targets for the forward slow salvos. So I think I'll drop this blueprint for now, and see what else can be done with backrakes only, along the lines of your suggestion.

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 2:15 am

Here are some *WSS seeds consisting of 2 spartan objects:

Code: Select all

x = 462, y = 67, rule = B3/S23
b2o49b3o48b2o49b2o50b2o49bo49bo49b2o49b3o48b2o$2bo50b3o47b2o49b2o51bo
49bo49bo48bo2bo47b3o48bo$o107bo43b2o50b3o50bo49bo49b2o42b2o58bo$2o56bo
48bobo42b2o50bo195bobo56b2o$15b2o40bobo48bobo291bo$14bobo40b2o50bo141b
2o54b2o50b2o45b2o$15bo85b2o147bobo55bo51bo44bobo$51b2o47bobo56bo47b2o
43bo55bobo46bo47b2o$50bobo49bo48b2o5bobo46bo93b2o6b2o40b2o4b2o$8b2o42b
o97bobo4bobo41b2o7bo89bobo47bobo$7bobo142bo4b2o41bobo6b2o91bo49bo$9bo
192bo2$254b2o202bo$255bo201bobo$252bo204bo2bo$252b2o204b2o$451b2o$450b
obo$452bo31$9b2o48b2o49b2o48b2o49b2o50bo51b2o$9bo49bo50b2o49bo48bo51bo
bo43bo7bo$7bobo47bobo98bo54bo48bobo42bobo3bo$7b2o48b2o48bo50b2o46b2o3b
2o50bo43bo2bo2b2o$b2o48b2o53bobo97bo101b2o$obo47bobo54bobo98bo$2bo49bo
55bo49bo48b2o49b2o$157bobo99bo41b2o$158bobo96bo42bobo$101b2o56b2o96b2o
43bo$100bobo98b2o48b2o$102bo48b2o47bobo47bobo$150bobo49bo49bo$5b2o48b
2o95bo$4bobo47bobo$3bobo49bo$4bo!
The corresponding script was:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
wd=genesis

./makepatlist.pl obj/block.life obj/hive?.life obj/loaf?.life obj/boat?.life obj/pond.life obj/tub.life obj/lboat?.life obj/barge?.life obj/ship?.life obj/carrier?.life obj/eater_*.life >$wd/still.list
./makepatlist.pl obj/blinker.life obj/toad?.life obj/beacon?.life >$wd/p2.list

./gencols -pat obj/glider_ne.life $wd/still.list -tc 10 11 >$wd/genesis1.col
./gencols -pat obj/glider_ne.life $wd/p2.list -nph 2 -tc 10 11 >>$wd/genesis1.col
wc -l $wd/genesis1.col

./gencols -pat $wd/genesis1.col $wd/still.list -tc 10 190 -gen 190 -filt ap >$wd/genesis.col
./gencols -pat $wd/genesis1.col $wd/p2.list -nph 2 -tc 10 190 -gen 190 -filt ap >>$wd/genesis.col
wc -l $wd/genesis.col
Besides the HWSS seed you've already mentioned, only another one fits our requirements for slow salvo synthesis, though not quite:

Code: Select all

x = 75, y = 104, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o61$67b2o$67bo$69bo$68b2o3$73bo$72bobo$72bobo$73bo19$62bo$
60bobo$61b2o$67b2o$67bo$69bo$68b2o3$73bo$72bobo$72bobo$73bo!
The LWSS is created closer to the glider source than its seed, so previous gliders for slow salvo synthesis should be timed in order not to collide with the counterstream of spaceships.

Now I'm out for filtering not-so-dirty *WSS seeds from gencols output. It will take a bit more time.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 4:15 am

I've just thought whether it would make sense to define pulsars as spartan objects as well. They are just somewhat rarer that aircraft carriers, and twice as common as snakes. It might result in new interesting spartan seeds, under the new definition :)
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 4:33 am

codeholic wrote:The LWSS is created closer to the glider source than its seed, so previous gliders for slow salvo synthesis should be timed in order not to collide with the counterstream of spaceships.
Argh, timing won't help, relative period is always different. Another (useless) seed of this kind:

Code: Select all

x = 71, y = 100, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o60$69bo$67bo2bo$67bo2bo$68bo3$64b3o23$62bo$60bobo$61b2o6bo$
67bo2bo$67bo2bo$68bo3$64b3o!
EDIT: Or could it work? Ah, screw it anyway. There should be better seeds out there.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 6:32 am

HWSS + blinker seed (related to clean HWSS seed):

Code: Select all

x = 68, y = 99, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o49$66b2o$66bo$64bobo$64b2o11$67bo$67bo$67bo15$66b2o$66bo$
64bobo$64b2o6$62bo$60bobo$61b2o3$67bo$67bo$67bo!
EDIT: HWSS + block seeds

Code: Select all

x = 68, y = 99, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o49$66b2o$66b2o$64b2o$64b2o11$67bo$67bo$67bo15$66b2o$66b2o$
64b2o$64b2o6$62bo$60bobo$61b2o3$67bo$67bo$67bo!

Code: Select all

x = 68, y = 99, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o49$62bo$62b3o$65bo$64b2o11$67bo$67bo$67bo15$62bo$62b3o$65bo
$64b2o6$62bo$60bobo$61b2o3$67bo$67bo$67bo!
EDIT: Finally, some good LWSS seeds:

Code: Select all

x = 66, y = 101, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o61$54b2o$55bo$53bo$53b2o$63b2o$63bobo$64bo22$61bo$62bo$60b3o$
54b2o$55bo$53bo$53b2o$63b2o$63bobo$64bo!

Code: Select all

x = 66, y = 101, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o61$54b2o$55bo$53bo$53b2o$63b2o$63bobo$64b2o22$61bo$62bo$60b3o
$54b2o$55bo$53bo$53b2o$63b2o$63bobo$64b2o!
EDIT: Oh, here is a nice one, a spark from the century turns a barge into LWSS:

Code: Select all

x = 73, y = 101, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o39$70bo$69bobo$70bobo$71bo23$66b2o$66bo2bo$68b2o3$70bo$69bobo
$70bobo$71bo16$61bo$62bo$60b3o5$66b2o$66bo2bo$68b2o!
EDIT: Two variations of "some good LWSS seeds" with eaters:

Code: Select all

x = 66, y = 101, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o61$54b2o$53bobo$53bo$52b2o$63b2o$63bobo$64bo22$61bo$62bo$60b
3o$54b2o$53bobo$53bo$52b2o$63b2o$63bobo$64bo!

Code: Select all

x = 66, y = 101, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o60$53b2o$53bobo$55bo$55b2o2$63b2o$63bobo$64bo22$61bo$62bo$53b
2o5b3o$53bobo$55bo$55b2o2$63b2o$63bobo$64bo!
And here goes the champion!

Code: Select all

x = 66, y = 101, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o61$54b2o$54b2o3$63b2o$63bobo$64bo22$61bo$62bo$60b3o$54b2o$54b
2o3$63b2o$63bobo$64bo!
All three work also with a ship instead of a boat.

EDIT: The rightmost hive in the junk may be a problem for building spaceships in into an existing salvo, but it seems that some additional objects in the seed (probably, even available for free) may prevent its appearance.

EDIT: More HWSS seed variants:

Code: Select all

x = 68, y = 99, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o49$65b2o$66bo$64bo$64b2o11$67bo$67bo$67bo15$65b2o$66bo$64bo
$64b2o6$62bo$60bobo$61b2o3$67bo$67bo$67bo!

Code: Select all

x = 68, y = 99, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o49$63b2o$63bo$65bo$64b2o11$67bo$67bo$67bo15$63b2o$63bo$65bo
$64b2o6$62bo$60bobo$61b2o3$67bo$67bo$67bo!

Code: Select all

x = 68, y = 99, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o49$62b2o$62b2o$64b2o$64b2o11$67bo$67bo$67bo15$62b2o$62b2o$
64b2o$64b2o6$62bo$60bobo$61b2o3$67bo$67bo$67bo!

Code: Select all

x = 68, y = 99, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o49$62b2o$62bobo$64bo$64b2o11$67bo$67bo$67bo15$62b2o$62bobo$
64bo$64b2o6$62bo$60bobo$61b2o3$67bo$67bo$67bo!
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 3:03 pm

codeholic wrote:One just needs a glider + spaceship salvo reaction that produces a LWSS in the orthogonal direction. I think it will take 3-4 spaceships.
Ha! It took only 2:

Code: Select all

x = 413, y = 49, rule = B3/S23
11bo201bo196bo$11bobo199bobo194bobo$11b2o200b2o195b2o24$203b3o$202bo2b
o$2bo202bo195bo$b3o201bo194b3o$2obo198bobo195bob2o$3o398b3o$3o398b2o$
3o$b2o199bo$201b3o$200b2obo200bo$200b3o200b3o$201b2o199b2obo$402b3o$
402b3o$402b3o$403b2o2$13b3o$13bo2bo$13bo$13bo$14bobo!
EDIT: I've successfully found a small optimization I had in mind:

Code: Select all

x = 713, y = 362, rule = B3/S23
710bo$710bobo$710b2o23$625bo$625bobo$625b2o48$475bo$475bobo$475b2o14$
650bo$650bobo$650b2o11$388bo$388bobo$388b2o10$565bo$565bobo$565b2o36$
238bo$238bobo$238b2o10$415bo$415bobo$415b2o14$590bo$151bo438bobo$151bo
bo436b2o$151b2o10$328bo$328bobo$328b2o10$505bo$505bobo$505b2o29$o2bo$
4bo$o3bo$b4o4$178bo$178bobo$178b2o10$355bo$355bobo$355b2o7$100bo$99bob
o$100b2o$120bo2bo$124bo$120bo3bo$121b4o$530bo$530bobo$530b2o11$268bo$
268bobo$268b2o9$100bo57bo$99bobo55bobo285bo$100b2o56b2o285bobo$240bo2b
o201b2o$244bo$240bo3bo$241b4o25$100bo57bo99bo57bo$99bobo55bobo97bobo
55bobo$100b2o56b2o98b2o56b2o$360bo2bo$364bo$360bo3bo$361b4o25$100bo57b
o99bo57bo99bo$99bobo55bobo97bobo55bobo97bobo56b2o$100b2o56b2o98b2o56b
2o98b2o56b2o!
Ivan Fomichev

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dvgrn
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 12th, 2014, 3:38 pm

codeholic wrote:
codeholic wrote:One just needs a glider + spaceship salvo reaction that produces a LWSS in the orthogonal direction. I think it will take 3-4 spaceships.
Ha! It took only 2...
The first one on the left looks workable, for sure! The other two look dangerously close together, even for the new *WSS seeds to construct, but I haven't checked yet to see if they squeak through.

No MWSS edge-shooter seeds yet?

I see I have some work to do to put together reasonable slow-salvo syntheses for some of the new 2-Spartan-seed constellations. Aircraft carriers are expensive in some orientations, but maybe not too bad. Beacons are fairly common, and eaters and boats and so on are certainly easy enough. Further bulletins as events warrant.

EDIT: An eminently usable beacon is pretty close to a traffic light -- that's a good start, anyway:

Code: Select all

x = 23, y = 20, rule = B3/S23
2b3o$10b2o$o5bo3bobo$o5bo3bo$o5bo2$2b3o5$11b2o8b2o$11bobo6b2o$11bo10bo
4$10b2o$10bobo$10bo!
On another topic, maybe I've been optimizing the wrong thing in my rephaser and backrake variants. I was thinking that it would be good for the block trails to be as permeable as possible for crossing glider streams, especially forward glider streams, so I tried hiding blocks more or less in each others' diagonal shadows.

But we can do *WSS constructions mostly with slow salvos from backrakes. If forerakes still turn out to be worth having at the front of the ship, we might need just one possible lane through the block trails, not twelve.

Maybe we'll have twelve block trails for a short distance at the front, but then just six after that, with a long series of backrakes. Or maybe we don't even need forerakes. In either of those cases, no glider streams will ever cross those six trails at all!

I'm thinking about this because it seems as if construction of the block trails might be quite easily done by reflected forward gliders, as long as the blocks aren't hiding in each other's shadows (where I carefully put them to improve the permeability). Something like this, but without the red collision points -- I haven't figured out the optimal trail locations yet:

Code: Select all

x = 1431, y = 515, rule = LifeHistory
518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.
2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.
2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$
692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2D292.2D52.2A$518.2A52.2D292.2D52.2A2$692.2A
52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$
692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.
2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.
2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A
292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A
52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$
518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2D292.2D
52.2A$518.2A52.2D292.2D52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2A52.2A
292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$518.2D
52.2A292.2A52.2D$518.2D52.2A292.2A52.2D2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.2A27$
518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.2A52.
2A27$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A$518.2A52.2A292.2A52.2A2$692.2A52.2A$692.
2A52.2A30$250.3A$252.A$251.A$1243.3A$1243.A$1244.A3$413.3A$415.A$414.
A$1428.3A$1428.A$1429.A4$1033.3A$1033.A$1034.A$3A$2.A1205.3A$.A1206.A
$1209.A$173.3A$175.A$174.A11$1107.3A$1107.A$1108.A$34.3A$36.A1367.3A$
35.A1368.A$1405.A$323.3A$325.A$324.A!

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 12th, 2014, 4:08 pm

A note came in this morning from Calcyman, suggesting that once six trails are built (or seven, including an appropriate piece of junk somewhere to use for a slow-salvo target) the other six trails can most easily be constructed by slow salvos from backrakes running on the first six trails. Seems very plausible at first glance -- am I missing anything?

Now I'm wondering if it might be possible to cut the initial front-end construction down to the four outermost trails in a set of twelve. It would be a matter of getting the timing and spacing right, so that the first eight output gliders from each Herschel pair collide with each other to produce the inner eight block trails. No idea if this is possible, but it seems vaguely plausible at least, given all the degrees of freedom available.

That would leave eight extra backward gliders escaping on the outside, but those could easily be caught with forerakes running on the twelve tracks, either to make absorbing junk for other gliders, or maybe even to be kicked back to build the four initial trails.

Another part of Calcyman's suggestion was to avoid using LWSSes altogether. But I think that that still requires an unknown "glider helix" that pushes a block up 31 cells while releasing a 90-degree forward glider, all in 240 ticks or less. I'm pretty sure such things can be found, but I'm not so sure that I'd enjoy figuring out how to build such a salvo, either with a slow-salvo seed or with a series of kickbacks or whatever.

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 12th, 2014, 5:12 pm

Now that I look, there are over a hundred aircraft carrier recipes in the truncated block-move table, some with as few as five gliders. They mostly have extra junk left over, and no doubt 7/8 of them will be the wrong orientation, and most of the rest won't work out for some other annoying reason.

But that should still leave a few workable ones -- looks like the aircraft carrier seeds aren't as close to the LWSS lane as the beacon is to the HWSS, so intermediate targets won't be as much of a problem.

Code: Select all

blinkerB carrierB1 block blinkerA:E-9 E-1 E-17 E-15 O3 O-3 O-23
block carrierA2:E9 E7 O-11 O-7 E-3 E27 E25 O-15
block beehiveB carrierB1:E-9 E-1 E-17 E13 E7 E19 E21
block carrierB1:E-9 E-1 E-17 E13 E7 E19 E21 E-27
block++ carrierA2 beehiveA:E-9 E-1 E-17 O-31 O11
block carrierA2 beehiveA:E-9 E-1 E-17 O-31 O11 O41
block+ carrierA2:E-9 E-1 E-17 O-31 O11 O41 O9
block carrierA2:E-9 E-1 E-5 E7 O9 O19 E11
block carrierA2:E-9 E-1 E-5 E7 O9 O19 E11 E13
blinkerB carrierA1:E-9 E-15 E-11 E-23 E1 O-27 O-37 O-17
block carrierA2:E-9 E-15 E-29 E-31 O-13 O-23 O7 E11
beehiveA carrierA2 block:E-9 E-15 E1 E-29 E-23 E-35 E-37
block carrierA2:E-9 E-15 E1 E-7 O-33 E1 O-11 E-15
block carrierA2:E-9 E-15 O-17 O-13 O-19 E-5 E-21 O-43
block carrierA2:E-9 E-23 E-27 E13 E-11 E21 E17 E13
block carrierB1:E-9 E-23 E7 O-23 E-11 O-17 E-27 O-23
block carrierB1:E-9 E-3 E-3 O3 O-3 E-9 O-19 E-15
block carrierB1:E-9 E-7 E-11 E3 E-9 O-15 E-25 O-21
blinkerA carrierA1 blinkerB:E-9 E-7 O-31 O-3 E-23 O-27 O-47
block carrierA1:E-9 E-7 O-31 O-3 E-23 O-27 O-47 O-57
block carrierA1:E9 E9 O-15 O13 E-7 O-11 O-31 O-41
blinkerA carrierA1 blinkerB:E9 E9 O-15 O13 E-7 O-11 O-31
block carrierA2:E-9 E-9 O-27 O-23 E-19 E11 E9 O-31
block carrierB1:E-9 E-9 O7 E19 O13 O-19 E3 O7
block carrierB1:E-9 E11 E3 E-7 E-23 E-55 E-51 E-47
block carrierB1:E9 E9 E5 E19 E7 O1 E-9 O-5
block carrierB1:E-9 E7 E11 E-29 E-5 E-37 E-33 E-29
block carrierB1:E9 E-7 E23 O-7 E5 O-1 E-11 O-7
block carrierA2:E9 E1 E-13 E-15 O3 O-7 O23 E27
beehiveA carrierA2 block:E9 E1 E17 E-13 E-7 E-19 E-21
blinkerB carrierA1:E9 E1 E5 E-7 E17 O-11 O-21 O-1
block carrierA2:E9 E1 O-1 O3 O-3 E11 E-5 O-27
block carrierB1:E9 E27 E19 E9 E-7 E-39 E-35 E-31
block carrierB1:E9 E13 E13 O19 O13 E7 O-3 E1
blinkerB carrierB1 block blinkerA:E9 E15 E-1 E1 O19 O13 O-7
carrierA2 block:E9 E3 E3 O-3 O3 E9 O19 E15
carrierA2 block:E9 E9 O-7 E-19 O-13 O19 E-3 O-7
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-7 O-23 E-35 O-29 O3 E-19 O-23
carrierB2:E-9 E-15 O-31 E-43 O-13 O17 O-19
carrierB1 block++:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-7
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-59 O-21
carrierB1 block+ beehiveB:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-59
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-57 O-55 O-29
carrierB1 block beehiveB:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-57 O-55
carrierB1 block beehiveB:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-57 O-33
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-57 O-25 O-49
carrierB1 block+:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-57 O-25
carrierB1 block beehiveB:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-57
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-45 O-7 O-59
carrierB1 block+:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-45 O-7
carrierB1 beehiveB block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-45 O-29
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-45 O-19
carrierB1 beehiveB block+:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-45
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-19 O-75 O-39
carrierB1 block+:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-19 O-75
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-19 O-53 O-39
carrierB1 block+:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-19 O-53
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-19 O-33 O-59
carrierB1 block+:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-19 O-33
carrierB1 block+:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27 O-19
carrierA2 block:E9 E7 O11 O29 O11 O-29 E7 O-27
carrierB1 block++ beehiveB:E-9 E-15 E1 O15 O-27
carrierA2 block blinkerA:E9 E7 O11 O29 O11 O-29 E7
carrierA2 tub block blinkerA:E9 E7 O11 O29 O11 O-29
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-9 E-5 E-19 E-7 O-1 E9 O5
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-15 E1 E-29 E-23 E-35 E-37 E11
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-15 E1 E-23 O-11 O-17 E-33
carrierA2 tub block blinkerA:E-9 E-9 O-5 O13 O-5 O-45
carrierA2 block blinkerA:E-9 E-9 O-5 O13 O-5 O-45 E-9
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-9 O-5 O13 O-5 O-45 E-9 O-43
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E-11 E-23 O-25 O-35 E-27 E-29
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-15 E-11 E-23 O-25 O-35 E-27
carrierA2 block:E-9 E7 E-23 O7 E-5 O1 E11 O7
carrierA2 block:E-9 E7 E-5 E1 O-5 O-7 E-7 O-17
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-23 E7 E-35 E-37 O-31 E-21 O-25
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-13 E-13 O-19 O-13 E-7 O3 E-1
carrierA2 block:E9 E-7 E23 E-19 E-21 O-15 E-5 O-9
carrierA1:E-9 E-1 O15 E27 O-3 O-33 O3
carrierA2 block:E9 E1 E17 E-13 E-7 E-19 E-21 E27
carrierA2 block:E9 E1 E17 E-7 O5 O-1 E-17
carrierB1 block++ beehiveB:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11
carrierB1 beehiveB block+:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-29
carrierB1 beehiveB block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-29 O-13
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-29 O-3
carrierB1 block+:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-29 O9
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-29 O9 O-43
carrierB1 block+:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-3
carrierB1 block+:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-3 O-17
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-3 O-17 O-43
carrierB1 block+:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-3 O-37
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-3 O-37 O-23
carrierB1 block+:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-3 O-59
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-3 O-59 O-23
carrierB1 block beehiveB:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-41
carrierB1 block beehiveB:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-41 O-17
carrierB1 block beehiveB:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-41 O-39
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-41 O-39 O-13
carrierB1 block+ beehiveB:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-43
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O-43 O-5
carrierB1 block++:E9 E1 E17 O31 O-11 O9
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E5 E-7 O-9 O-19 E-11
carrierB1 block:E9 E1 E5 E-7 O-9 O-19 E-11 E-13
carrierA2 block:E-9 E-1 E-17 O-31 O11 O41 O9 O33
carrierB1 block:E-9 E-1 E-17 E-9 O17 E-17 O-5 E-1
carrierA2 block:E9 E23 E11 E17 O11 O9 E9 O-1
pond carrierA1 blinkerA:E-9 E-15 E1 O-1 O-7 E-25
pond carrierA1 blinkerA:E9 E1 E17 O15 O9 E-9
pond blinkerB carrierB2:E-9 E-1 E-17 O-15 O-9 E9

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 6:27 pm

Could you please take a look if any of these selected seeds are easily constructible?

Code: Select all

x = 433, y = 1430, rule = B3/S23
bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o6$122b2o
206bo$20bo100bobo105b2o98bobo$19bobo100bo106b2o98b2o$19b2o407b2o$428b
2o11$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o
98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$
bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o5$322b2o$
122bo100bo97bo2bo95bo$22b2o97bobo98bobo97b2o95bobo$22b2o98b2o98b2o196b
2o13$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o
98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$
bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o5$121bo
102b2o99b2o$20b2o98bobo100bo2bo97bo2bo$19bo2bo96bo2bo101b2o98bobo$19bo
bo98b2o203bo$20bo398b2o$419b2o11$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o
98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97b
obo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o
97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o8$19bo99b2o99bo99b2o101b2o$18bobo97bo2bo97bobo97bo
bo101b2o$19b2o98b2o98b2o99bo11$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b
2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo
$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o
97b3o97b3o97b3o6$224b2o$19b2o99bo102bo2bo93b2o101bo$18bo2bo97bobo102b
2o93bobo100bobo$19bobo97bobo198bo102b2o$20bo99bo11$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b
2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97b
obo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99b
o99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o6$125b2o293b2o$23b2o99bo2bo192b2o
97bo2bo$23b2o99bobo92b2o98bo2bo97b2o$125bo93bobo97bobo$220bo99bo11$14b
2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o
98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo
99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o5$326bo$227bo97bobo
98b2o$125b2o99bobo96b2o99bobo$124bobo98bo2bo198bo$125bo100b2o$30b2o$
30bobo$31bo9$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b
2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo
99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o5$
221bo105bo$27b2o191bobo103bobo$26bobo191bo2bo101bo2bo100b2o$27bo193b2o
103b2o100bobo$129b2o298bo$129b2o11$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b
2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo
97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$
3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o6$28b2o$27bo2bo188b2o103b2o104b2o$28bobo188b2o
102bo2bo102bo2bo$29bo88b2o204b2o104bobo$118b2o311bo11$14b2o98b2o98b2o
98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo
97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo
99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o4$423bo$322bo99bobo$321bobo97bo
2bo$26bo100b2o101bo89bo2bo98b2o$25bobo99b2o100bobo89b2o$26b2o201b2o12$
14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o
98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99b
o99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o6$125bo100bo
98bo$25b2o97bobo98bobo96bobo100b2o$25b2o98b2o98b2o97bobo99bobo$325bo
101bo12$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b
2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo
71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o5$21b
2o103b2o$20bo2bo101bo2bo90bo108bo$20bobo102bobo90bobo106bobo$21bo104bo
92b2o105bo2bo88bo$327b2o88bobo$418b2o11$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b
2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo
97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo
99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o6$222b2o99bo$122b2o97bo2bo97bobo$19b2o101bo
bo97bobo97bobo$18bo2bo101bo99bo99bo$18bobo408b2o$19bo409bobo$430bo9$
14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o
98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo71$bo99b
o99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b3o4$325b2o$324bo
2bo$21b2o102b2o198bobo95bo$20bo2bo100bobo199bo95bobo$21b2o102bo91b2o
204b2o$217b2o12$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$
23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo
99bo99bo71$bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$2bo99bo99bo99bo99bo$3o97b3o97b3o97b3o97b
3o6$118bo100b2o102b2o$117bobo98bo2bo101b2o93b2o$19bo97bo2bo98bobo195bo
2bo$18bobo97b2o100bo196bobo$18b2o398bo11$14b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$14b
2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o3$23b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o98b2o$23bobo97bobo97bobo
97bobo97bobo$24bo99bo99bo99bo99bo!
If there aren't any, I will post some more.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 6:53 pm

dvgrn wrote:A note came in this morning from Calcyman, suggesting that once six trails are built (or seven, including an appropriate piece of junk somewhere to use for a slow-salvo target) the other six trails can most easily be constructed by slow salvos from backrakes running on the first six trails. Seems very plausible at first glance -- am I missing anything?
Well, the question is whether it's really needed.
dvgrn wrote:Another part of Calcyman's suggestion was to avoid using LWSSes altogether. But I think that that still requires an unknown "glider helix" that pushes a block up 31 cells while releasing a 90-degree forward glider, all in 240 ticks or less. I'm pretty sure such things can be found, but I'm not so sure that I'd enjoy figuring out how to build such a salvo, either with a slow-salvo seed or with a series of kickbacks or whatever.
I wrote a couple of scripts, that I used in order to find block pushers for Extrementhusiast's project. They could be used for finding also glider salvos, that turn a glider 90 degrees, but the question is again whether it's needed. I agree with you that building such a tight salvo (even if it's just 5-6 gliders per cycle) will be another big challenge, and will certainly require something like kickback cascades.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 6:58 pm

dvgrn wrote:Now that I look, there are over a hundred aircraft carrier recipes in the truncated block-move table, some with as few as five gliders. They mostly have extra junk left over, and no doubt 7/8 of them will be the wrong orientation, and most of the rest won't work out for some other annoying reason.
Once my current gencols searches are over :P I'm going to elaborate on HWSS seed and replace the aircraft carrier with two "superspartan" objects (blinker, block, beehive, loaf, boat), that might be easier to synthesise than an aircraft carrier or a beacon. Hopefully there will be something to choose from.
dvgrn wrote:No MWSS edge-shooter seeds yet?
No :( I went through all not-so-dirty seeds consisting of 2 spartan objects, but no luck. Hopefully LWSS and HWSS will be enough.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 12th, 2014, 7:12 pm

I'm currently trying to build in a slow salvo target generator into the burning helix. Here's an interesting side-product of this search:

Code: Select all

x = 36, y = 316, rule = B3/S23
16b2o$16bobo$10b3o3bo$9bo2bo$12bo$12bo$9bobo3$4b3o$3bo2bo$6bo$6bo$3bob
o10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo14b2o$17b2o5$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4bobo3$26b3o$
25bo2bo$28bo$28bo$25bobo5b3o$32bo2bo$35bo$35bo$32bobo10$17b2o$17b2o30$
17b2o$17b2o$10b3o$9bo2bo$12bo$12bo$9bobo3$4b3o$3bo2bo$6bo$6bo$3bobo10$
b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo4$17b2o$17b2o$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4bobo3$26b3o$25b
o2bo$28bo$28bo$25bobo5b3o$32bo2bo$35bo$35bo$32bobo14$17b2o$17b2o28$10b
3o$9bo2bo$12bo4b2o$12bo4b2o$9bobo3$4b3o$3bo2bo$6bo$6bo$3bobo10$b3o$o2b
o$3bo$3bo$obo6$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo9b2o$7bo9b2o$4bobo3$26b3o$25bo2bo$28bo$
28bo$25bobo5b3o$32bo2bo$35bo$35bo$32bobo18$17b2o$17b2o24$10b3o$9bo2bo$
12bo$12bo$9bobo2$17b2o$4b3o10b2o$3bo2bo$6bo$6bo$3bobo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$
3bo$obo6$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4bobo2$17b2o$17b2o7b3o$25bo2bo$28bo$28bo$
25bobo5b3o$32bo2bo$35bo$35bo$32bobo!
But I'd like to find one that would leave a seed closer to the spaceship's body, not between helix wings.

EDIT: Another interesting helix:

Code: Select all

x = 37, y = 316, rule = B3/S23
17b2o$17bobo$11b3o3bo$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10bobo3$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4b
obo8$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo$27b3o$26bo2bo$29bo$
29bo$26bobo5b3o$33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo43$11b3o$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10b
obo3$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4bobo8$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3b
o$obo$27b3o$26bo2bo$29bo$29bo$26bobo5b3o$33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo43$
11b3o$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10bobo3$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4bobo8$b3o$o2bo$3b
o$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo$27b3o$26bo2bo$29bo$29bo$26bobo5b3o$
33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo43$11b3o$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10bobo3$5b3o$4bo2bo
$7bo$7bo$4bobo8$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo$27b3o$26bo
2bo$29bo$29bo$26bobo5b3o$33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo!
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 12th, 2014, 11:28 pm

codeholic wrote:Could you please take a look if any of these selected seeds are easily constructible?
If there aren't any, I will post some more.
A ten-second search (once I got it set up) tells me that the common boat-and-block constellation can be made from six slow gliders aimed at a block:

Code: Select all

x = 83, y = 60, rule = B3/S23
obo$b2o$bo12$17bo$15bobo14bo$16b2o12bobo$31b2o14$47bo$45bobo$46b2o5$
62bo$60bobo$61b2o17$77bo$75bobo3b2o$76b2o3b2o!
The leftover blinker is in a good place to pull and convert into one of the many possible third objects.

So one of those constellations can certainly be constructed with less than a dozen gliders -- and if I search for longer than ten seconds, I may yet find a cheaper starting recipe.

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 13th, 2014, 5:22 am

dvgrn wrote:A ten-second search (once I got it set up) tells me that the common boat-and-block constellation can be made from six slow gliders aimed at a block:
Here are raw results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl5c9mgf2xuoc2u/lwssseed.col

They are roughly sorted by dirtiness.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 13th, 2014, 8:23 am

dvgrn wrote:...one of those constellations can certainly be constructed with less than a dozen gliders...
It's nice with a prediction like this works out right away:

EDIT: Bother, I knew it was too good to be true. Fixed the intermediate-target overlap problem at the cost of one extra glider. There may well be a cheaper way to turn the blinker into a good suppressor, but I'm not finding it immediately, and I'm out of time for today.

Code: Select all

#C backward LWSS edge-shooter seed, 11 slow gliders from a block
#C leftover junk after trigger glider is a boat and block
#C back-LWSS:E-9 E-1 E-17 E-15 E-43 O-45 O3 E-7 O-1 E9 E11 E-19
x = 228, y = 218, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o3$22bo$20bobo$21b2o19$42bo$40bobo$41b2o23$60bobo$61b2o$61bo
21$82bo$80bobo$81b2o13$100bobo$101b2o$101bo42$120bobo$121b2o$121bo17$
142bo$140bobo$141b2o4$162bo$160bobo$161b2o19$182bo$180bobo$181b2o10$
202bo$200bobo$201b2o22$222bo$220bobo3b2o$221b2o3b2o!
Here's the full test pattern to prove I haven't forgotten anything this time:

Code: Select all

x = 3837, y = 4944, rule = B3/S23
bo$2bo$3o89$61bo$62bo$60b3o42$151bo$152bo$150b3o45$121bo$122bo$120b3o
42$211bo$212bo$210b3o45$181bo$182bo$180b3o11$301bo$302bo$300b3o29$271b
o$272bo$270b3o45$241bo$242bo$240b3o11$361bo$362bo$360b3o29$331bo$332bo
$330b3o31$450bo$451b2o$450b2o12$301bo$302bo$300b3o11$421bo$422bo$420b
3o29$391bo$392bo$390b3o31$510bo$511b2o$510b2o12$361bo$362bo$360b3o11$
481bo$482bo$480b3o29$451bo$452bo$450b3o2$601bo$602bo$600b3o27$570bo$
571b2o$570b2o12$421bo$422bo$420b3o11$541bo$542bo$540b3o29$511bo$512bo$
510b3o2$661bo$662bo$660b3o27$630bo$631b2o$630b2o12$481bo$482bo$480b3o
9$750bo$751b2o$601bo148b2o$602bo$600b3o29$571bo$572bo$570b3o2$721bo$
722bo$720b3o27$690bo$691b2o$690b2o12$541bo$542bo$540b3o9$810bo$811b2o$
661bo148b2o$662bo$660b3o29$631bo$632bo$630b3o2$781bo$782bo$780b3o27$
750bo$751b2o$750b2o12$601bo$602bo$600b3o$900bo$901b2o$900b2o6$870bo$
871b2o$721bo148b2o$722bo$720b3o29$691bo$692bo$690b3o2$841bo$842bo$840b
3o27$810bo$811b2o$810b2o12$661bo$662bo$660b3o$960bo$961b2o$960b2o6$
930bo$931b2o$781bo148b2o$782bo$780b3o29$751bo$752bo$750b3o2$901bo$902b
o$900b3o11$1051bo$1052bo$1050b3o14$870bo$871b2o$870b2o12$721bo$722bo$
720b3o$1020bo$1021b2o$1020b2o6$990bo$991b2o$841bo148b2o$842bo$840b3o
29$811bo$812bo$810b3o2$961bo$962bo$960b3o11$1111bo$1112bo$1110b3o14$
930bo$931b2o$930b2o12$781bo$782bo$780b3o$1080bo$1081b2o$1080b2o6$1050b
o$1051b2o$901bo148b2o$902bo$900b3o298bo$1202bo$1200b3o27$871bo$872bo$
870b3o2$1021bo$1022bo$1020b3o11$1171bo$1172bo$1170b3o14$990bo$991b2o$
990b2o12$841bo$842bo$840b3o$1140bo$1141b2o$1140b2o6$1110bo$1111b2o$
961bo148b2o$962bo$960b3o298bo$1262bo$1260b3o27$931bo$932bo$930b3o2$
1081bo$1082bo$1080b3o11$1231bo$1232bo$1230b3o12$1351bo$1352bo$1050bo
299b3o$1051b2o$1050b2o12$901bo$902bo$900b3o$1200bo$1201b2o$1200b2o6$
1170bo$1171b2o$1021bo148b2o$1022bo$1020b3o298bo$1322bo$1320b3o27$991bo
$992bo$990b3o2$1141bo$1142bo$1140b3o11$1291bo$1292bo$1290b3o12$1411bo$
1412bo$1110bo299b3o$1111b2o$1110b2o12$961bo$962bo$960b3o$1260bo$1261b
2o$1260b2o6$1230bo$1231b2o$1081bo148b2o$1082bo$1080b3o298bo$1382bo$
1380b3o18$1501bo$1502bo$1500b3o7$1051bo$1052bo$1050b3o2$1201bo$1202bo$
1200b3o11$1351bo$1352bo$1350b3o12$1471bo$1472bo$1170bo299b3o$1171b2o$
1170b2o12$1021bo$1022bo$1020b3o$1320bo$1321b2o$1320b2o6$1290bo$1291b2o
$1141bo148b2o$1142bo$1140b3o298bo$1442bo$1440b3o18$1561bo$1562bo$1560b
3o7$1111bo$1112bo$1110b3o2$1261bo$1262bo$1260b3o11$1411bo$1412bo$1410b
3o12$1531bo$1532bo$1230bo299b3o$1231b2o$1230b2o12$1081bo$1082bo$1080b
3o$1380bo$1381b2o$1380b2o2$1651bo$1652bo$1650b3o2$1350bo$1351b2o$1201b
o148b2o$1202bo$1200b3o298bo$1502bo$1500b3o18$1621bo$1622bo$1620b3o7$
1171bo$1172bo$1170b3o2$1321bo$1322bo$1320b3o11$1471bo$1472bo$1470b3o
12$1591bo$1592bo$1290bo299b3o$1291b2o$1290b2o12$1141bo$1142bo$1140b3o$
1440bo$1441b2o$1440b2o2$1711bo$1712bo$1710b3o2$1410bo$1411b2o$1261bo
148b2o$1262bo$1260b3o298bo$1562bo$1560b3o18$1681bo$1682bo$1680b3o7$
1231bo$1232bo$1230b3o2$1381bo$1382bo$1380b3o11$1531bo$1532bo$1530b3o
12$1651bo$1652bo$1350bo299b3o$1351b2o$1350b2o12$1201bo$1202bo$1200b3o$
1500bo$1501b2o$1500b2o2$1771bo$1772bo$1770b3o2$1470bo$1471b2o$1321bo
148b2o$1322bo$1320b3o298bo$1622bo$1620b3o18$1741bo$1742bo$1740b3o7$
1291bo$1292bo$1290b3o2$1441bo$1442bo$1440b3o11$1591bo$1592bo$1590b3o
12$1711bo$1712bo$1410bo299b3o$1411b2o$1410b2o12$1261bo$1262bo$1260b3o$
1560bo$1561b2o$1560b2o2$1831bo$1832bo$1830b3o2$1530bo$1531b2o$1381bo
148b2o$1382bo$1380b3o298bo$1682bo$1680b3o18$1801bo$1802bo$1800b3o7$
1351bo$1352bo$1350b3o2$1501bo$1502bo$1500b3o11$1651bo$1652bo$1650b3o
12$1771bo$1772bo$1470bo299b3o$1471b2o$1470b2o12$1321bo$1322bo$1320b3o$
1620bo$1621b2o$1620b2o2$1891bo$1892bo$1890b3o2$1590bo$1591b2o$1441bo
148b2o$1442bo$1440b3o298bo$1742bo$1740b3o18$1861bo$1862bo$1860b3o7$
1411bo$1412bo$1410b3o2$1561bo$1562bo$1560b3o11$1711bo$1712bo$1710b3o
12$1831bo$1832bo$1530bo299b3o$1531b2o$1530b2o12$1381bo$1382bo$1380b3o$
1680bo$1681b2o$1680b2o2$1951bo$1952bo$1950b3o2$1650bo$1651b2o$1501bo
148b2o$1502bo$1500b3o298bo$1802bo$1800b3o18$1921bo$1922bo$1920b3o7$
1471bo$1472bo$1470b3o2$1621bo$1622bo$1620b3o11$1771bo$1772bo$1770b3o
12$1891bo$1892bo$1590bo299b3o$1591b2o$1590b2o12$1441bo$1442bo$1440b3o$
1740bo$1741b2o$1740b2o2$2011bo$2012bo$2010b3o2$1710bo$1711b2o$1561bo
148b2o$1562bo$1560b3o298bo$1862bo$1860b3o18$1981bo$1982bo$1980b3o7$
1531bo$1532bo$1530b3o2$1681bo$1682bo$1680b3o11$1831bo$1832bo$1830b3o
12$1951bo$1952bo$1650bo299b3o$1651b2o$1650b2o12$1501bo$1502bo$1500b3o$
1800bo$1801b2o$1800b2o2$2071bo$2072bo$2070b3o2$1770bo$1771b2o$1621bo
148b2o$1622bo$1620b3o298bo$1922bo$1920b3o18$2041bo$2042bo$2040b3o7$
1591bo$1592bo$1590b3o2$1741bo$1742bo$1740b3o11$1891bo$1892bo$1890b3o
12$2011bo$2012bo$1710bo299b3o$1711b2o$1710b2o12$1561bo$1562bo$1560b3o$
1860bo$1861b2o$1860b2o2$2131bo$2132bo$2130b3o2$1830bo$1831b2o$1681bo
148b2o$1682bo$1680b3o298bo$1982bo$1980b3o18$2101bo$2102bo$2100b3o7$
1651bo$1652bo$1650b3o2$1801bo$1802bo$1800b3o11$1951bo$1952bo$1950b3o
12$2071bo$2072bo$1770bo299b3o$1771b2o$1770b2o12$1621bo$1622bo$1620b3o$
1920bo$1921b2o$1920b2o2$2191bo$2192bo$2190b3o2$1890bo$1891b2o$1741bo
148b2o$1742bo$1740b3o298bo$2042bo$2040b3o18$2161bo$2162bo$2160b3o7$
1711bo$1712bo$1710b3o2$1861bo$1862bo$1860b3o11$2011bo$2012bo$2010b3o
12$2131bo$2132bo$1830bo299b3o$1831b2o$1830b2o12$1681bo$1682bo$1680b3o$
1980bo$1981b2o$1980b2o2$2251bo$2252bo$2250b3o2$1950bo$1951b2o$1801bo
148b2o$1802bo$1800b3o298bo$2102bo$2100b3o18$2221bo$2222bo$2220b3o7$
1771bo$1772bo$1770b3o2$1921bo$1922bo$1920b3o11$2071bo$2072bo$2070b3o
12$2191bo$2192bo$1890bo299b3o$1891b2o$1890b2o12$1741bo$1742bo$1740b3o$
2040bo$2041b2o$2040b2o2$2311bo$2312bo$2310b3o2$2010bo$2011b2o$1861bo
148b2o$1862bo$1860b3o298bo$2162bo$2160b3o18$2281bo$2282bo$2280b3o7$
1831bo$1832bo$1830b3o2$1981bo$1982bo$1980b3o11$2131bo$2132bo$2130b3o
12$2251bo$2252bo$1950bo299b3o$1951b2o$1950b2o12$1801bo$1802bo$1800b3o$
2100bo$2101b2o$2100b2o2$2371bo$2372bo$2370b3o2$2070bo$2071b2o$1921bo
148b2o$1922bo$1920b3o298bo$2222bo$2220b3o18$2341bo$2342bo$2340b3o7$
1891bo$1892bo$1890b3o2$2041bo$2042bo$2040b3o11$2191bo$2192bo$2190b3o
12$2311bo$2312bo$2010bo299b3o$2011b2o$2010b2o12$1861bo$1862bo$1860b3o$
2160bo$2161b2o$2160b2o2$2431bo$2432bo$2430b3o2$2130bo$2131b2o$1981bo
148b2o$1982bo$1980b3o298bo$2282bo$2280b3o18$2401bo$2402bo$2400b3o7$
1951bo$1952bo$1950b3o2$2101bo$2102bo$2100b3o11$2251bo$2252bo$2250b3o
12$2371bo$2372bo$2070bo299b3o$2071b2o$2070b2o12$1921bo$1922bo$1920b3o$
2220bo$2221b2o$2220b2o2$2491bo$2492bo$2490b3o2$2190bo$2191b2o$2041bo
148b2o$2042bo$2040b3o298bo$2342bo$2340b3o18$2461bo$2462bo$2460b3o7$
2011bo$2012bo$2010b3o2$2161bo$2162bo$2160b3o11$2311bo$2312bo$2310b3o
12$2431bo$2432bo$2130bo299b3o$2131b2o$2130b2o12$1981bo$1982bo$1980b3o$
2280bo$2281b2o$2280b2o2$2551bo$2552bo$2550b3o2$2250bo$2251b2o$2101bo
148b2o$2102bo$2100b3o298bo$2402bo$2400b3o18$2521bo$2522bo$2520b3o7$
2071bo$2072bo$2070b3o2$2221bo$2222bo$2220b3o11$2371bo$2372bo$2370b3o
12$2491bo$2492bo$2190bo299b3o$2191b2o$2190b2o12$2041bo$2042bo$2040b3o$
2340bo$2341b2o$2340b2o2$2611bo$2612bo$2610b3o2$2310bo$2311b2o$2161bo
148b2o$2162bo$2160b3o298bo$2462bo$2460b3o18$2581bo$2582bo$2580b3o7$
2131bo$2132bo$2130b3o2$2281bo$2282bo$2280b3o11$2431bo$2432bo$2430b3o
12$2551bo$2552bo$2250bo299b3o$2251b2o$2250b2o12$2101bo$2102bo$2100b3o$
2400bo$2401b2o$2400b2o2$2671bo$2672bo$2670b3o2$2370bo$2371b2o$2221bo
148b2o$2222bo$2220b3o298bo$2522bo$2520b3o18$2641bo$2642bo$2640b3o7$
2191bo$2192bo$2190b3o2$2341bo$2342bo$2340b3o11$2491bo$2492bo$2490b3o
12$2611bo$2612bo$2310bo299b3o$2311b2o$2310b2o12$2161bo$2162bo$2160b3o$
2460bo$2461b2o$2460b2o2$2731bo$2732bo$2730b3o2$2430bo$2431b2o$2281bo
148b2o$2282bo$2280b3o298bo$2582bo$2580b3o18$2701bo$2702bo$2700b3o7$
2251bo$2252bo$2250b3o2$2401bo$2402bo$2400b3o11$2551bo$2552bo$2550b3o
12$2671bo$2672bo$2370bo299b3o$2371b2o$2370b2o15$2520bo$2521b2o$2520b2o
2$2791bo$2792bo$2790b3o2$2490bo$2491b2o$2341bo148b2o$2342bo$2340b3o
298bo$2642bo$2640b3o18$2761bo$2762bo$2760b3o7$2311bo$2312bo$2310b3o2$
2461bo$2462bo$2460b3o11$2611bo$2612bo$2610b3o12$2731bo$2732bo$2430bo
299b3o$2431b2o$2430b2o15$2580bo$2581b2o$2580b2o2$2851bo$2852bo$2850b3o
2$2550bo$2551b2o$2401bo148b2o$2402bo$2400b3o298bo$2702bo$2700b3o18$
2821bo$2822bo$2820b3o11$2521bo$2522bo$2520b3o11$2671bo$2672bo$2670b3o
12$2791bo$2792bo$2490bo299b3o$2491b2o$2490b2o15$2640bo$2641b2o$2640b2o
2$2911bo$2912bo$2910b3o2$2610bo$2611b2o$2461bo148b2o$2462bo$2460b3o
298bo$2762bo$2760b3o18$2881bo$2882bo$2880b3o11$2581bo$2582bo$2580b3o
11$2731bo$2732bo$2730b3o12$2851bo$2852bo$2550bo299b3o$2551b2o$2550b2o
15$2700bo$2701b2o$2700b2o2$2971bo$2972bo$2970b3o2$2670bo$2671b2o$2670b
2o2$2821bo$2822bo$2820b3o18$2941bo$2942bo$2940b3o11$2641bo$2642bo$
2640b3o11$2791bo$2792bo$2790b3o12$2911bo$2912bo$2610bo299b3o$2611b2o$
2610b2o15$2760bo$2761b2o$2760b2o2$3031bo$3032bo$3030b3o2$2730bo$2731b
2o$2730b2o2$2881bo$2882bo$2880b3o18$3001bo$3002bo$3000b3o11$2701bo$
2702bo$2700b3o11$2851bo$2852bo$2850b3o12$2971bo$2972bo$2970b3o17$2820b
o$2821b2o1012b2o$2820b2o1013b2o2$3091bo$3092bo$3090b3o2$2790bo$2791b2o
$2790b2o2$2941bo$2942bo$2940b3o18$3061bo773b2o$3062bo772b2o$3060b3o11$
2761bo$2762bo$2760b3o11$2911bo$2912bo$2910b3o3$3835b2o$3835b2o8$3031bo
$3032bo$3030b3o17$2880bo$2881b2o$2880b2o$3835b2o$3151bo683b2o$3152bo$
3150b3o2$2850bo$2851b2o$2850b2o2$3001bo$3002bo$3000b3o18$3121bo$3122bo
$3120b3o712b2o$3835b2o23$2971bo$2972bo$2970b3o5$3835b2o$3835b2o6$3091b
o$3092bo$3090b3o17$2940bo$2941b2o$2940b2o2$3211bo$3212bo622b2o$3210b3o
622b2o2$2910bo$2911b2o$2910b2o2$3061bo$3062bo$3060b3o18$3181bo$3182bo$
3180b3o2$3835b2o$3835b2o21$3031bo$3032bo$3030b3o7$3835b2o$3835b2o4$
3151bo$3152bo$3150b3o17$3000bo$3001b2o$3000b2o2$3271bo$3272bo$3270b3o$
3835b2o$3835b2o4$3121bo$3122bo$3120b3o18$3241bo$3242bo$3240b3o4$3835b
2o$3835b2o19$3091bo$3092bo$3090b3o9$3835b2o$3835b2o2$3211bo$3212bo$
3210b3o17$3060bo$3061b2o$3060b2o2$3331bo$3332bo$3330b3o3$3835b2o$3835b
2o2$3181bo$3182bo$3180b3o18$3301bo$3302bo$3300b3o6$3835b2o$3835b2o17$
3151bo$3152bo$3150b3o11$3835b2o$3271bo563b2o$3272bo$3270b3o21$3391bo$
3392bo$3390b3o5$3835b2o$3241bo593b2o$3242bo$3240b3o18$3361bo$3362bo$
3360b3o8$3835b2o$3835b2o15$3211bo$3212bo$3210b3o12$3331bo$3332bo502b2o
$3330b3o502b2o21$3451bo$3452bo$3450b3o6$3301bo$3302bo532b2o$3300b3o
532b2o18$3421bo$3422bo$3420b3o10$3835b2o$3835b2o27$3391bo$3392bo$3390b
3o$3835b2o$3835b2o19$3511bo$3512bo$3510b3o6$3361bo$3362bo$3360b3o$
3835b2o$3835b2o16$3481bo$3482bo$3480b3o12$3835b2o$3835b2o25$3451bo$
3452bo$3450b3o3$3835b2o$3835b2o17$3571bo$3572bo$3570b3o11$3835b2o$
3835b2o14$3541bo$3542bo$3540b3o14$3835b2o$3835b2o23$3511bo$3512bo$
3510b3o5$3835b2o$3835b2o15$3631bo$3632bo$3630b3o13$3835b2o$3835b2o12$
3601bo$3602bo$3600b3o16$3835b2o$3835b2o30$3835b2o$3835b2o13$3691bo$
3692bo$3690b3o15$3835b2o$3835b2o10$3661bo$3662bo$3660b3o18$3835b2o$
3835b2o30$3835b2o$3835b2o11$3751bo$3752bo$3750b3o17$3835b2o$3835b2o30$
3835b2o$3835b2o30$3835b2o$3835b2o9$3811bo$3812bo$3810b3o19$3835b2o$
3835b2o!
codeholic wrote:Hmm... If you've written a script it may be easier just to give you raw results...
Unfortunately I haven't written a good script yet for this kind of thing. What I really need a reasonably optimized pattern matcher to run through and look for multiple orientations of multiple possible patterns among a few million small intermediate targets. With the tools I'm using, I can only realistically deal with a few thousand recipes at a time.

To give you a better picture of my currrent set of ugly workarounds, here's what I did for this case. The block-and-boat constellation was obviously of interest, so I did a text search to get all the "boatC block" recipes in my annotated list of half a million intermediate targets from the p2 block-move table.

There were 4379 "boatC block" recipes; #64 just happened to have the two objects in the right relative locations, there was some extra junk deleted by the final glider that could be saved and modified, and none of the intermediate targets got in the way of the LWSS lane.

That was very lucky, it turns out. None of the later recipes are shorter. There are a few that are the same length, but they're not as useful. This one has extra junk, but in the wrong place --

Code: Select all

x = 97, y = 118, rule = Life
o$b2o$2o38$28bo$29bo$27b3o23$41bo$42b2o$41b2o13$60bo$61bo$59b3o13$83bo
$84bo$82b3o13$95bo$96bo$94b3o4$95b2o$95b2o!
-- and the other ones all have intermediate targets in the LWSS lane. It's too bad that this one doesn't work starting from the traffic light, for example:

Code: Select all

x = 124, y = 123, rule = Life
o$b2o$2o18$13bo$14b2o$13b2o18$29bo$30bo$28b3o18$44bo$45bo$43b3o18$64bo
$65b2o$64b2o18$99bo$100bo$98b3o18$118bo$119bo2b2o$117b3o2b2o!
It's quite possible that somewhere in the full database of 500K intermediate targets, there's a three-object constellation that matches one of your gencols results, maybe with an extra object or two to shoot down.

If so, that would guarantee a recipe with eight to ten gliders. Not less than that; if there had been a cheaper recipe, Glue would have shot down the extra objects and produced another matching seven-glider "boatC block" variant -- but nothing like that showed up in the search.

Anyway, I'd have to write a completely new search script to do that kind of partial matching, and the search would take a lot longer than ten seconds. Once I'm investing that much work, the right thing to do is clearly to rewrite Glue to allow an exhaustive search for *WSS edge shooter seeds -- and other useful things, like seeds for both directions of forward glider.

NewGlue should include the option to do the search a width-31 torus, too. Interference between adjacent targets isn't actually a problem as long as you get the spaceship out in the end...! That way we could be sure that we had the shortest possible recipe -- and it might well be down around five or six gliders.

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 13th, 2014, 11:28 am

While I'm thinking about it: wouldn't a variant of this slow-salvo method work very nicely for the original Caterpillar's little brother?

The original Caterpillar is a strange beast, moving faster than a glider but slower than a *WSS. But I think the helix construction could work basically the same way as in the 31c/240: starting from the front of the ship, backward rakes would slow-construct the innermost *WSS first, then push some leftover junk out to the next lane and construct the next stream, and so on.

That's assuming that a decent edge-shooter MWSS seed synthesis will eventually show up in a gencols or NewGlue search, of course, and that enough seeds can be found to handle all the closely-spaced cases in the Caterpillar helix. This current champion LWSS recipe certainly can't do everything -- there's a troublesome little spark just behind and outside the insertion point. But the current seed can still reach a surprising distance into an existing *WSS salvo to add a new LWSS:

Code: Select all

x = 153, y = 429, rule = B3/S23
obo$b2o$bo89$60bobo$61b2o$61bo22$126b2o$126b2o13$121b2o$121b2o3$130b2o
$130bobo$131bo11$126b2o$126b2o13$121b2o$121b2o3$130b2o$130bobo$131bo
11$126b2o$126b2o4$120bobo$121b2o$121bo7$121b2o$121b2o3$130b2o$130bobo$
131bo16$143bo$142b3o$142bob2o$143b3o$143b2o5$149b3o$149bo2bo$149bo$
149bo$150bobo13$150bo$149b3o$148b2obo$148b3o$149b2o3$143b3o$142bo2bo$
145bo$145bo$142bobo52$143bo$142b3o$142bob2o$143b3o$143b2o5$149b3o$149b
o2bo$149bo$149bo$150bobo13$150bo$149b3o$148b2obo$148b3o$149b2o3$143b3o
$142bo2bo$145bo$145bo$142bobo52$143bo$142b3o$142bob2o$143b3o$143b2o5$
149b3o$149bo2bo$149bo$149bo$150bobo13$150bo$149b3o$148b2obo$148b3o$
149b2o3$143b3o$142bo2bo$145bo$145bo$142bobo!
It wouldn't take many more gliders to build each *WSS in a 6x helix than the Caterpillar uses, though no doubt pushing the junk to the next insertion point would at least double the cost. But the construction gliders would all be from backrakes, which could be packed fairly tightly -- no need for those big oblique triangles to give backrake and forerake streams enough space to meet. Wouldn't that cut the Caterpillar length down by something like an order of magnitude?

I don't understand enough detail about thowers and catchers and filter streams to guess whether the Caterpillar's little brother could get away with using fewer blinker trails. Probably safest to just try to build the original Caterpillar front end with slow salvo methods.

At least, anything that works at 31c/240 (like the above insertion) should also work at 6*(17c/45) = 102c/270, right?

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by Sphenocorona » January 13th, 2014, 4:19 pm

Well, anything that relies on gliders moving faster than the ship will not work for 102c/270, even though such setups can be used here. But what you are talking about seems to be something unrelated to that fact.

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 13th, 2014, 4:41 pm

Sphenocorona wrote:Well, anything that relies on gliders moving faster than the ship will not work for 102c/270, even though such setups can be used here. But what you are talking about seems to be something unrelated to that fact.
Right, sorry. What I meant was: any slow-salvo construction of a *WSS that works for the 31c/240 spaceship should also work to build a similar *WSS in a 102c/270 Caterpillar helix.

I was wrong about that in one obvious important way, though. The Caterpillar takes more time between insertions -- 30 more ticks -- but because of the higher speed, successive insertion points are farther apart, so there's a lot less actual space for insertion reactions to fit into. You end up with 89 cells between successive *WSSes in a 31c/240 lane, but only a 33-cell gap in the forward Caterpillar *WSS streams. [The Doppler effect gets pretty impressive when you're traveling at relativistic speeds.]

However, the LWSS-seed test pattern from my last message manages to fit an LWSS between two existing LWSSes that are separated by 33 cells. So I think there's definitely some hope for this method. Also, some of codeholic's recent edge-shooter HWSS seeds do their insertions with much less of a spark on the far side of the lane. I'm thinking that slow-salvo synthesis might work particularly well in a rebuilt Caterpillar sibling, replacing the current awkward two-stage HWSS synthesis.

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by HartmutHolzwart » January 13th, 2014, 5:06 pm

At least some of the syntheses seem to be much easier to use with pi rakes!

Codeholics HWSS generator just needs a blinker and a hook that can be generated quite easily without any kickbacks. As only the last step generates the space ship there are few constraints in terms of timing and a lot of variations. <in this way it might be possible to build a shorter caterpilliar and maybe even generate tighter helices.

Alas, you still need a new version of robocat to assemble the ship!

Could you post again your best constructions, one for LWSS, MWSS and HWSS each?

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 13th, 2014, 6:15 pm

codeholic wrote:EDIT: Another interesting helix:

Code: Select all

x = 37, y = 316, rule = B3/S23
17b2o$17bobo$11b3o3bo$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10bobo3$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4b
obo8$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo$27b3o$26bo2bo$29bo$
29bo$26bobo5b3o$33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo43$11b3o$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10b
obo3$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4bobo8$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3b
o$obo$27b3o$26bo2bo$29bo$29bo$26bobo5b3o$33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo43$
11b3o$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10bobo3$5b3o$4bo2bo$7bo$7bo$4bobo8$b3o$o2bo$3b
o$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo$27b3o$26bo2bo$29bo$29bo$26bobo5b3o$
33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo43$11b3o$10bo2bo$13bo$13bo$10bobo3$5b3o$4bo2bo
$7bo$7bo$4bobo8$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo10$b3o$o2bo$3bo$3bo$obo$27b3o$26bo
2bo$29bo$29bo$26bobo5b3o$33bo2bo$36bo$36bo$33bobo!
Forward and backward glider streams from one helix -- this looks very useful indeed. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the pair of LWSSes used to turn the "burning" glider can't be constructed in this orientation with the new champion LWSS seed -- the annoying far-side spark kills off any trailing LWSS at (+7, +4).

I think the mirror image LWSS salvo might be buildable, and that might still come in handy somewhere, I suppose. But I'd say mainly what this means is that we need more slow-salvo *WSS edge-shooter recipes.

Probably it's time to write a prototype NewGlue, or maybe NewGlue%N (with N=31 for this project). If I do it, it will probably be in Python, at least at first -- might try to borrow Paul Chapman's RLife DLL to speed things up later on.

But I'm hoping not to have to go past seven or eight gliders to find edge-shooters for all three spaceships, so possibly even plain old Golly Python will be fast enough to find everything that's needed eventually.

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 13th, 2014, 6:32 pm

dvgrn wrote:Forward and backward glider streams from one helix -- this looks very useful indeed. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the pair of LWSSes used to turn the "burning" glider can't be constructed in this orientation with the new champion LWSS seed -- the annoying far-side spark kills off any trailing LWSS at (+7, +4).
Yeah, I've already noticed that. Too late, unfortunately. Currently I'm elaborating on another helix backbone, and this time I made sure in advance that it is constructible with already known seeds :)

Code: Select all

x = 30, y = 398, rule = B3/S23
26b3o$21b2o2bo2bo$20bobo5bo$22bo5bo$25bobo11$28bo$27b3o$26b2obo$26b3o$
27b2o9$3o$o2bo$o$o3bo$o3bo$o$bobo3$bo$3o$ob2o$b3o$b2o48$26b3o$25bo2bo$
28bo$28bo$25bobo11$28bo$27b3o$26b2obo$26b3o$27b2o9$3o$o2bo$o$o3bo$o3bo
$o$bobo3$bo$3o$ob2o$b3o$b2o48$26b3o$25bo2bo$28bo$28bo$25bobo11$28bo$
27b3o$26b2obo$26b3o$27b2o9$3o$o2bo$o$o3bo$o3bo$o$bobo3$bo$3o$ob2o$b3o$
b2o48$26b3o$25bo2bo$28bo$28bo$25bobo11$28bo$27b3o$26b2obo$26b3o$27b2o
9$3o$o2bo$o$o3bo$o3bo$o$bobo3$bo$3o$ob2o$b3o$b2o48$26b3o$25bo2bo$28bo$
28bo$25bobo11$28bo$27b3o$26b2obo$26b3o$27b2o9$3o$o2bo$o$o3bo$o3bo$o$bo
bo3$bo$3o$ob2o$b3o$b2o!
I think I'm pretty close to building a front for the spaceship. I've finally got a clear understanding how it should work. I just need a couple of components. I think there will be under 20 supporting spaceships in total, less than number of spaceships only in the caterpillar's helix!
Ivan Fomichev

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by dvgrn » January 13th, 2014, 7:11 pm

codeholic wrote:I think I'm pretty close to building a front for the spaceship. I've finally got a clear understanding how it should work. I just need a couple of components. I think there will be under 20 supporting spaceships in total, less than number of spaceships only in the caterpillar's helix!
Just six block trails, then? Any reason to adjust the 58:100:58:100:58 spacing, or should we leave well enough alone?

It looks pretty trivial to build a compiler script to add backward rakes to the body, to match any slow salvo one might want to ask for. I'll probably work on that first, just to make sure there aren't any snags, and then drop out of sight for a while and see if I can throw together a prototype NewGlue%31. As usual, feature creep will be the big danger with that project...!

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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 13th, 2014, 7:33 pm

dvgrn wrote:Just six block trails, then? Any reason to adjust the 58:100:58:100:58 spacing, or should we leave well enough alone?
No, this is just fine. It's good, that they're lined up, because I will use LWSS heisenburps, just like I posted above.
dvgrn wrote:It looks pretty trivial to build a compiler script to add backward rakes to the body, to match any slow salvo one might want to ask for. I'll probably work on that first, just to make sure there aren't any snags, and then drop out of sight for a while and see if I can throw together a prototype NewGlue%31. As usual, feature creep will be the big danger with that project...!
I salute to your decision. Let's make the thing work first. It is a great advantage of slow salvo construction method compared to the caterpillar's approach, that if new better syntheses are discovered later, it will be pretty straightforward to build them in.

EDIT: Oops... it may happen, that the idea with heisenburps doesn't work out :( One degree of freedom too little.

EDIT: Could you please take a look, if there are other tracks, that are all lined up? Preferably with a formula (explanation in words would be also ok :)) I need badly that one degree of freedom from somewhere.
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Re: 31c/240 caterpillar working notes

Post by codeholic » January 14th, 2014, 6:35 am

Here is an interesting backward MWSS seed I found:

Code: Select all

x = 215, y = 203, rule = B3/S23
2o$2o7$4b2o$4bobo$4bo50$63b3o$63bo$64bo41$108b3o$108bo$109bo51$163b2o$
162b2o$164bo42$212b3o$212bo$213bo!
It's not an edge-shooter, unfortunately.
Ivan Fomichev

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