Thread for basic questions
Re: Thread for basic questions
Why does B7 make Liferelated rules interesting? (e.g. Life, tlife)
\100\97\110\105
 toroidalet
 Posts: 1084
 Joined: August 7th, 2016, 1:48 pm
 Location: My computer
 Contact:
Re: Thread for basic questions
That is down to coincidence.drc wrote:Why does B7 make Liferelated rules interesting? (e.g. Life, tlife)
Compare:
Code: Select all
x = 5, y = 8, rule = B3e/S23
b3o$o3bo$2ob2o3$2bo$bobo$2bo!
Code: Select all
x = 5, y = 8, rule = B3e7/S23
b3o$o3bo$2ob2o3$2bo$bobo$2bo!
"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett
Re: Thread for basic questions
Well, I never got SLmake to run. I even tried it again on my laptop. doesn't work, but for different reasons. However, I found a much easier way to do what I was trying to, which does not require SLMake. Thanks everyone for your help!
Tangentially related question: In the Herschel conduit collection, why are there some conduits that destroy the conduit immediately with a block, turning it into a traffic light and not giving the labelled output? Example:
For reference:
Tangentially related question: In the Herschel conduit collection, why are there some conduits that destroy the conduit immediately with a block, turning it into a traffic light and not giving the labelled output? Example:
Code: Select all
x = 53, y = 48, rule = LifeHistory
D3.D.D3.D.5D3.D4.3D2.5D3.D6.D2.D$D3.D.2D2.D.D6.2D3.D7.D4.2D5.2D2.D$D
3.D.D.D.D.D7.D3.D7.D5.D4.D.D2.4D$5D.D2.2D.3D5.D3.4D4.D5.D3.D2.D2.D3.D
$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D3.5D.D3.D$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D6.D2.D
3.D$D3.D.D3.D.5D2.3D3.3D4.D4.3D5.D2.4D10$41.3B$40.4B$39.4B$38.4B$37.
4B$36.4B$21.B13.4B$20.3B11.4B$18.6B8.5B$12.4B2.7B3.8B$10.26B$9.4BD23B
$9.4BDBD21B.3B$9.4B3DB2A22B$9.6BDB2A21B2A$10.28B.B2A$14.23B3.B$16.B2.
18B$19.17B$19.17B$19.19B$20.18B$20.4B2.12B$26.11B$26.8B$26.10B$22.A.
2AB.4B2.2A$20.3AB2AB7.A$19.A4.B10.3A$20.3A.2A11.A$22.2A2.A$25.2A!
Code: Select all
x = 53, y = 48, rule = LifeHistory
D3.D.D3.D.5D3.D4.3D2.5D3.D6.D2.D$D3.D.2D2.D.D6.2D3.D7.D4.2D5.2D2.D$D
3.D.D.D.D.D7.D3.D7.D5.D4.D.D2.4D$5D.D2.2D.3D5.D3.4D4.D5.D3.D2.D2.D3.D
$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D3.5D.D3.D$D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D3.D3.D5.D6.D2.D
3.D$D3.D.D3.D.5D2.3D3.3D4.D4.3D5.D2.4D10$41.3B$40.4B$39.4B$38.4B$37.
4B$36.4B$21.B13.4B$20.3B11.4B$18.6B8.5B$12.4B2.7B3.8B$10.26B$9.4BA23B
$9.4BABA21B.3B$9.4B3AB2A22B$9.6BAB2A21B2A$10.28B.B2A$14.23B3.B$16.B2.
18B$19.17B$19.17B$19.19B$20.18B$20.4B2.12B$26.11B$26.8B$26.10B$22.A.
2AB.4B2.2A$20.3AB2AB7.A$19.A4.B10.3A$20.3A.2A11.A$22.2A2.A$25.2A!
"It's not easy having a good time. Even smiling makes my face ache."  Frank N. Furter
Re: Thread for basic questions
Those are the socalled "dependent" conduits  they interact with an active reaction three ticks before it becomes a Herschel.Ethanagor wrote:Tangentially related question: In the Herschel conduit collection, why are there some conduits that destroy the conduit immediately with a block, turning it into a traffic light and not giving the labelled output?
So if you connect another conduit's output to that conduit's input, it will work fine  but don't expect to get a glider out in the usual place, since the interaction with the block suppresses that output.
 gameoflifemaniac
 Posts: 1050
 Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 11:17 am
 Location: There too
Re: Thread for basic questions
Where are all the saved rules stored in Golly?
I was so socially awkward in the past and it will haunt me for my entire life.
Re: Thread for basic questions
It's OSspecific. See File > Preferences > Control to see the path for your system. This came up just a couple of weeks ago.gameoflifemaniac wrote:Where are all the saved rules stored in Golly?
Re: Thread for basic questions
What is a good estimate/guess of the minimum population of the smallest possible universal constructorbased spaceship? (Geminilike)
As in, how small would the smallest be likely to be?
As in, how small would the smallest be likely to be?
Re: Thread for basic questions
There's some kind of answer to that in response to muzik's question, in the lower part of this post. If you're optimizing population it seems hard to beat a design like the Demonoid with two 180degree reflectors to hold the signals that run the universal constructor(s).Rhombic wrote:What is a good estimate/guess of the minimum population of the smallest possible universal constructorbased spaceship? (Geminilike)
As in, how small would the smallest be likely to be?
We could probably improve the current 0hd Demonoid from 27,250 cells down to somewhere below 20,000 cells by obsessively optimizing the existing design. The current version uses suboptimal slow salvos, suboptimal selfdestruct circuitry, and suboptimal 0hd gliderpair recipes. Maybe not suboptimal by all that much, but a whole lot more searching would improve things in each subcategory.
Smallest Findable, or Smallest "Out There"?
By "smallest possible" do you mean the absolute smallest population selfconstructing spaceship that's waiting out there somewhere to be discovered  a pattern of Go stones in the corner of Plato's Cave, let's say? That's going to depend on whether Plato's Cave also has an undiscovered stable glider splitter that's easy to construct, and/or a much cheaper way to build a Snark or a similar 90degree reflector.
The odds seem pretty good that Scorbie's Gto2G constructor/reflector isn't the absolute best glider splitter that could ever be discovered. Quite likely there's something that's not based on a syringe, that has a significantly faster recovery time, closer to the Snark's 43 ticks. That would make singlechannel construction arms much much more efficient, by hugely expanding the search space.
Guesses Starting from Where We Are
If we assume there's something out there like that, then the estimate can pretty safely go down into the high fourdigit range  5000 to 9999 ON cells, let's say.
Construction efficiency estimates between the Gemini and the various Demonoids hint that there's something like a factor of two population improvement available by going back to Geministyle construction, with two intersecting streams of gliders. If that works, we'd be down to maybe 2500 to 4999 ON cells.
If we had full access to Plato's Cave it would probably turn out that the optimal construction method is something we're barely even imagining yet. Just for example, it might be vaguely along these lines:
Code: Select all
x = 331, y = 341, rule = LifeHistory
79.2A$79.2A4$77.8B$76.4B2.4B$75.4B4.4B$74.4B6.4B$73.4B8.4B$72.4B10.4B
$71.4B12.4B$70.4B14.4B$69.4B16.4B$68.4B18.4B$67.4B20.4B$66.4B22.4B$
65.4B24.4B$64.4B26.4B$63.4B28.4B$62.4B30.4B$61.4B32.4B$60.4B34.4B$59.
4B36.4B$58.4B38.4B$57.4B40.4B$56.4B42.4B$55.4B44.4B$54.4B46.4B$53.4B
48.4B$52.4B50.4B$51.4B52.4B$50.4B54.4B$49.4B56.4B$48.4B58.4B$47.4B60.
4B$46.4B62.4B$45.4B64.4B$44.4B66.4B$43.4B68.4B$42.4B70.4B$41.4B72.4B$
40.4B74.4B$39.4B76.4B$38.4B78.4B$37.4B80.4B$36.4B82.4B$35.4B84.4B$34.
4B86.4B$33.4B88.4B$32.4B90.4B$31.4B92.4B$30.4B94.4B$29.4B96.4B$28.4B
98.4B$27.4B100.4B$26.4B102.4B$8.2A8.A6.4B104.4B6.A8.2A$7.B2AB5.3A5.4B
106.4B5.3A5.B2AB$8.3B4.A7.4B108.4B7.A4.3B$2A5.B.B5.2A5.4B110.4B5.2A5.
B.B5.2A$.A5.10B4.4B112.4B4.10B5.A$.A.AB2.8B5.4B114.4B5.8B2.BA.A$2.2AB
.11B2.4B116.4B2.11B.B2A$4.18B118.13B2A3B$4.5B2A10B120.12B2A3B$5.4B2A
9B122.15B$5.14B124.14B$5.14B124.14B$4.A.14B122.14B.A$3.A.A5.5B.4B120.
4B.5B5.A.A$4.A7.4B2.4B118.4B2.4B7.A$12.2B5.4B116.4B5.2B$11.4B5.4B114.
4B5.4B$11.B2AB6.4B112.4B6.B2AB$12.2A8.4B110.4B8.2A$23.4B108.4B$24.4B
106.4B$25.4B104.4B$26.4B102.4B$27.4B100.4B$28.4B98.4B$29.4B96.4B$30.
4B94.4B$31.4B92.4B$32.4B90.4B$33.4B88.4B$34.4B86.4B$35.4B84.4B$36.4B
82.4B$37.4B80.4B$38.4B78.4B$39.4B76.4B$40.4B74.4B$41.4B72.4B$42.4B70.
4B$43.4B68.4B$44.4B66.4B$45.4B64.4B$46.4B62.4B$47.4B60.4B$48.4B58.4B$
49.4B56.4B$50.4B54.4B$51.4B52.4B$52.4B50.4B$53.4B48.4B$54.4B46.4B$55.
4B44.4B$56.4B42.4B$57.4B40.4B$58.4B38.4B$59.4B36.4B$60.4B34.4B$61.4B
32.4B$62.4B30.4B$63.4B28.4B$64.4B21.B4.4B16.A11.2A$65.4B19.3B2.4B16.A
.A9.B2AB$66.4B10.2A5.9B17.A.A9.3B$67.4B10.A4.9B12.2A2.3A.2A9.B.B$68.
4B9.A.AB.8B13.A2.A4.B8.5B$69.4B9.2AB.9B3.4B2.BA.A3.3AB2A6.6B$70.4B10.
11B2.5B2.B2A6.A.2A4.8B$71.4B9.11B2.8B10.13B$72.4B8.21B12.13B$73.4B8.
19B12.15B$74.4B6.19B2.B10.15B$75.4B3.26B5.B.17B$76.4B.51B$77.4B.21B2A
13B2A13B$78.25B2A13B2A14B$79.50B3.B2A$80.48B4.A2.A$79.33B2.2B2.B3.6B
5.2A.A$79.16B2.7B2.4B13.6B7.A$79.16B3.6B17.9B6.2A$80.14B5.3B19.2A4.4B
$83.9B.3B4.B21.A5.4B$83.8B3.2A23.3A7.4B$84.4B6.A24.A10.4B$86.4B5.3A
33.4B$88.2A7.A34.4B$88.A44.4B$89.3A42.4B$91.A43.4B$136.4B$137.4B$138.
4B$139.4B$140.4B$141.4B$142.4B$143.4B$144.4B$145.B3A$146.AB.B$147.A3B
$148.4B$149.4B$150.4B$151.4B$152.4B$153.4B$154.4B$155.4B$156.4B$157.
4B$158.4B$159.4B$160.4B$161.4B$162.4B$163.4B$164.4B$165.4B$166.4B$
167.3BA$168.B2AB$169.ABAB$170.4B$171.4B$172.4B$173.4B$174.4B$175.4B$
176.4B$177.4B$178.4B$179.4B$180.4B$181.4B$182.4B$183.4B$184.4B$185.4B
$186.4B$187.4B$188.4B$189.4B$190.2B2A$191.BABA$192.A3B$193.4B$194.4B$
195.4B$196.4B$197.4B$198.4B$199.4B$200.4B$201.4B$202.4B$203.4B$204.4B
$205.4B$206.4B$207.4B$208.4B$209.4B$210.4B$211.4B$212.4B$213.B3A$214.
A3B$215.A3B$216.4B$217.4B$218.4B$219.4B$220.4B$221.4B$222.4B$223.4B$
224.4B$225.4B$226.4B$227.4B$228.4B$229.4B$230.4B$231.4B$232.4B$233.4B
$234.4B$235.2B2A$236.BABA$237.A3B$238.4B$239.4B$240.4B$241.4B$242.4B$
243.4B$244.4B$245.4B$246.4B$247.4B$248.4B$249.4B$250.4B$251.4B$252.4B
$253.4B$254.4B$255.4B$256.4B$257.4B$258.B3A$259.A3B$260.A3B$261.4B$
262.4B$263.4B$264.4B$265.4B$266.4B$267.4B$268.4B$269.4B$270.4B$271.4B
$272.4B$273.4B$274.4B$275.4B$276.4B$277.4B$278.4B$279.4B$280.2B2A$
281.BABA$282.A3B$283.4B$284.4B$285.4B$286.4B$287.4B$288.4B$289.4B$
290.4B$291.4B$292.4B$293.4B$294.4B$295.4B$296.4B$297.4B$298.4B$299.4B
$300.4B$301.4B$302.4B$303.B3A$304.A3B$305.A3B$306.4B$307.4B$308.4B$
309.4B$310.4B$311.4B$312.4B$313.4B$314.4B$315.4B$316.4B$317.4B$318.4B
$319.4B$320.4B$321.4B$322.4B$323.4B$324.4B$325.2B2A$326.BABA$327.A3B$
328.3B$329.2B$330.B!
Slow salvos are horribly inefficient, because they artifically reduce the available search space to something that modern computers can handle. We only use them because... they reduce the search space to something that modern computers can handle.
Still Has To Be Small, But It Can Be Weird
A smallestpossible universal constructor can't be terribly complicated, because it has to be able to build a copy of itself with absoluteminimal programming. Randomsample possible weirdness: the Plato'sCave best might turn out to be something like the above, but with one glider output and one *WSS output. Might save one semiSnark that way.
Probably that would restrict the spaceship's direction of travel in the wrong way  diagonal is probably cheapest  so don't take this specific suggestion seriously.
Still, the Plato'sCave smallest selfconstructing spaceship is very likely to be totally surprising in some way or other: it will just barely happen to work, using a totally impractical corner of the search space. So maybe we should cut the estimate in half or more again  say 1,000 to 2,499 ON cells.
Creeping doubts
Then again, if it's just something that barely happens to work, is it really a universalconstructorbased spaceship, or has it crossed the line into a particularly weird kind of elementary spaceship? It's not "universal" unless somebody can program the constructor to do other things besides construct itself... and I'm not sure it counts if we have to go back to Plato's Cave to get each new recipe, or if the recipe for anything other than the spaceship would be thousands of times longer...!
1000 cells would mean less than 200 gliders in the recipe. That seems insanely optimistic, no matter what the mechanism is. Let's go a bit higher than that, and maybe say that 2,500 cells is the "good estimate/guess" we're looking for.
Re: Thread for basic questions
Doesn't this thing I found count as a RRO?:
Code: Select all
x = 115, y = 35, rule = B3/S23a4i5i6ci
108b2o$107b2o$107b2o$107b2o$109bo$o3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo17b3o$4o36b4o36b4o
18bo$b3o37b3o37b3o18bobo$103b2o2$5bob2o36bob2o36bob2o$5bo2bo36bo2bo36b
o2bo$5b3o37b3o37b3o10$67b3o37b3o$66bo2bo36bo2bo$66b2obo36b2obo2$90b2o$
71b3o16bobo18b3o$71b4o17bo18b4o$70bo3bo15b3o17bo3bo$85bo$86b2o$86b2o$
86b2o$85b2o!
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Re: Thread for basic questions
Yes, thank you so much! That's now the best reflectorless rotating oscillator (4x, as opposed to 2x) in any isotropic 2state Mooreneighbourhood cellular automaton. Well done!drc wrote:Doesn't this thing I found count as a RRO?:Code: Select all
x = 115, y = 35, rule = B3/S23a4i5i6ci 108b2o$107b2o$107b2o$107b2o$109bo$o3bo35bo3bo35bo3bo17b3o$4o36b4o36b4o 18bo$b3o37b3o37b3o18bobo$103b2o2$5bob2o36bob2o36bob2o$5bo2bo36bo2bo36b o2bo$5b3o37b3o37b3o10$67b3o37b3o$66bo2bo36bo2bo$66b2obo36b2obo2$90b2o$ 71b3o16bobo18b3o$71b4o17bo18b4o$70bo3bo15b3o17bo3bo$85bo$86b2o$86b2o$ 86b2o$85b2o!
There's famously a RRO by Dean Hickerson in LtL, which Dave Greene noted has a maximum 12x multiplicity.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the monoclinic!
Re: Thread for basic questions
Thanks! I posted about it in the accidental discoveries thread but I thought I would bring it back up directly.calcyman wrote:Yes, thank you so much! That's now the best reflectorless rotating oscillator (4x, as opposed to 2x) in any isotropic 2state Mooreneighbourhood cellular automaton. Well done!
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 Posts: 796
 Joined: May 30th, 2016, 8:47 pm
 Location: Milky Way Galaxy: Planet Earth
Re: Thread for basic questions
Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)
Code: Select all
x = 81, y = 96, rule = LifeHistory
58.2A$58.2A3$59.2A17.2A$59.2A17.2A3$79.2A$79.2A2$57.A$56.A$56.3A4$27.
A$27.A.A$27.2A21$3.2A$3.2A2.2A$7.2A18$7.2A$7.2A2.2A$11.2A11$2A$2A2.2A
$4.2A18$4.2A$4.2A2.2A$8.2A!
Re: Thread for basic questions
1. Take a garden of EdenGamedziner wrote:Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)
2. Mirror it until you have a symmetric shape
There's also the bottom row of this image
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 Posts: 796
 Joined: May 30th, 2016, 8:47 pm
 Location: Milky Way Galaxy: Planet Earth
Re: Thread for basic questions
Thanksdrc wrote:1. Take a garden of EdenGamedziner wrote:Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)
2. Mirror it until you have a symmetric shape
There's also the bottom row of this image
Code: Select all
x = 81, y = 96, rule = LifeHistory
58.2A$58.2A3$59.2A17.2A$59.2A17.2A3$79.2A$79.2A2$57.A$56.A$56.3A4$27.
A$27.A.A$27.2A21$3.2A$3.2A2.2A$7.2A18$7.2A$7.2A2.2A$11.2A11$2A$2A2.2A
$4.2A18$4.2A$4.2A2.2A$8.2A!

 Posts: 1
 Joined: July 17th, 2017, 5:17 pm
Re: Thread for basic questions
This may seem stupid or is listed on some wiki page that I don't know the name of, but how do I get the code for a pattern in Golly? There seems to be no clear way to export it, and what export function there is exports this:
Whereas others post something like this:
How do I get to the latter format?
Code: Select all
[M2] (golly 2.8)
#R 01245678/3/8:P180,180
1 0 1 0 1
2 0 0 0 1
1 1 1 0 0
1 1 0 1 0
2 0 0 3 4
3 0 0 2 5
2 0 0 1 3
2 0 0 4 0
3 0 0 7 8
1 0 1 0 0
2 0 10 0 0
1 1 0 0 0
2 3 12 0 0
3 11 13 0 0
2 10 3 0 0
2 12 0 0 0
3 15 16 0 0
4 6 9 14 17
Code: Select all
x = 8, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
2o$o$o$bo4b2o$6bo!
Re: Thread for basic questions
It's surprisingly simple: when you copy a pattern, it actually goes into the same clipboard you use for text, so you can copy patterns directly from Golly as text.
Bored of using the Moore neighbourhood for everything? Introducing the Range2 von Neumann isotropic nontotalistic rulespace!
Re: Thread for basic questions
WaywardHorizons wrote:This may seem stupid or is listed on some wiki page that I don't know the name of, but how do I get the code for a pattern in Golly? There seems to be no clear way to export it...
So to be unnecessarily specific  select a rectangular area, or Edit > Select All, then Edit > Copy or Ctrl+C.muzik wrote:It's surprisingly simple: when you copy a pattern, it actually goes into the same clipboard you use for text, so you can copy patterns directly from Golly as text.
The format you quoted was macrocell format. That's what you get in Golly if you File > Save when the current algorithm is set to Hashlife or RuleLoader. Set the algo to QuickLife  Control > Set Algorithm > QuickLife  and then when you save a pattern, find it in the Show Files pane and rightclick on it, and it will be in the RLE format you're looking for.
Re: Thread for basic questions
The LifeWiki says in at least two places that the fourfold rotationally symmetric Garden of Eden 6 is the smallest known Garden of Eden. Which just shows how far out of date the LifeWiki can get sometimes. That was true for four years until Steven Eker started generating smaller asymmetrical ones, none of which have had their pictures taken for LifeWiki articles yet. (They're all in the list in the first link above, though.)drc wrote:1. Take a garden of EdenGamedziner wrote:Does a symmetric GoE exist? (orthogonal, diagonal, and/or rotational symmetries)
2. Mirror it until you have a symmetric shape
There's also the bottom row of this image
The symmetric GoE #6 was the product of an exhaustive search with an SAT solver, if I remember right  fourfold symmetry really cuts down on the size of the search space.
Re: Thread for basic questions
What is the usual speed of apgmera and why might it be running slower than expected on my computer?
 Apple Bottom
 Posts: 1033
 Joined: July 27th, 2015, 2:06 pm
 Contact:
Re: Thread for basic questions
For B3/S23/C1? I'm getting ~1450 soups/sec per hyperthreading core on a Core i73770K (supporting AVX1 but not AVX2). Other rules can be much faster  or much slower.Rhombic wrote:What is the usual speed of apgmera and why might it be running slower than expected on my computer?
If you speak, your speech must be better than your silence would have been. — Arabian proverb
Catagolue: Apple Bottom • Life Wiki: Apple Bottom • Twitter: @_AppleBottom_
Proud member of the Pattern Raiders!
Catagolue: Apple Bottom • Life Wiki: Apple Bottom • Twitter: @_AppleBottom_
Proud member of the Pattern Raiders!
Re: Thread for basic questions
I'm on a Core i7, and I ran apgmera with p 4, but the rate at which hauls are submitted seems to be much higher for other people.Apple Bottom wrote:For B3/S23/C1? I'm getting ~1450 soups/sec per hyperthreading core on a Core i73770K (supporting AVX1 but not AVX2). Other rules can be much faster  or much slower.Rhombic wrote:What is the usual speed of apgmera and why might it be running slower than expected on my computer?
Re: Thread for basic questions
Others use multiple computers, like calcyman uses upwards of 20(probably innacurate because I forgot how much). I use one and occasionally run 23 instances.Rhombic wrote:I'm on a Core i7, and I ran apgmera with p 4, but the rate at which hauls are submitted seems to be much higher for other people.
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 Apple Bottom
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Re: Thread for basic questions
I've never tried parallel searching  I just run several instances in parallel (makes it easier to shut down some when I need the CPU for other things).Rhombic wrote:I'm on a Core i7, and I ran apgmera with p 4, but the rate at which hauls are submitted seems to be much higher for other people.
Keep in mind you can run one searcher instance per hyperthreading core  my CPU has four physical cores, for instance, but since it supports hyperthreading I can run up to 8 searchers at the same time. It doesn't quite double the overall search speed, but it provides a significant boost, and I can get about 1820 billion objects per day that way (at an average of 21.8 objects/soup).
People who're submitting *much* more than that are probably using multiple computers.
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Re: Thread for basic questions
Why are symmetric objects generally more interesting?
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 gmc_nxtman
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Re: Thread for basic questions
Define "interesting".