Thread for basic questions

For general discussion about Conway's Game of Life.
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Tropylium
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by Tropylium » October 3rd, 2021, 8:49 am

mniemiec wrote:
June 22nd, 2021, 2:06 pm
pcallahan wrote:
June 22nd, 2021, 10:26 am
The question gave me a flashback to 49P88, which I have never thought of as a shuttle, despite taking a 180° turn. I still would not call it a shuttle. The classic shuttles are p30 and p46, which are both symmetric (ignoring catalysts) and can be thought of as flips as well as 180° turns. Maybe that is too strict as a definition, but I think it's my intuition when looking at something and deciding if it's a shuttle.
MathAndCode wrote:
June 22nd, 2021, 10:34 am
I would arguable that 49P88 is more of a shuttle than the p29 pre-pulsar hassler, which is commonly called a shuttle, because in 49P88, the hassled region goes both directions in the same way, which is impossible for any odd-period oscillator.
The LifeWiki definition is close, but I don't think it's exactly correct, at least from my memory of how the term was initially used back in the Scientific American and Lifeline days. They key feature of shuttles (as distinguished from other pulsators) is that their active regions move a substantial distance. While it's true that all of Life's common natural shuttles (e.g. queen bee and twin bees) share two additional properties (i.e. bilateral glide symmetry, and the fact that their mechanisms must be assisted by additional non-moving components), these are not necessary properties, and there are common shuttles in other rules that don't share them, e.g. ones that operate without any outside assistance, or ones with C4 rotational symmetry, or ones with no glide symmetry, that move forwards and backwards using different mechanisms (so are capable of having odd periods).
I always thought that the difference between a shuttle and a hassler is in what the other components do:
– a shuttle regenerates itself and other components are needed (if needed) only to suppress exhaust;
– a hassler involves a reaction that regenerates itself only after interacting with other active components;
– and something like 49p88 is neither, it's just a track / conduit loop (with no active hasslers, just eaters).

This seems further somewhat analogous to tagalong versus escort / pushalong, where the former depends on a spaceship for its growth in the first place but the latter depends on a spaceship just for stabilization.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » October 3rd, 2021, 11:14 am

GUYTU6J wrote:
October 2nd, 2021, 11:19 am
LifeWiki says that RNE-19T84 is not Spartan, which I think is due to the eater2 variant to minimize bounding box. Do we really need it elsewhere, apart from an L156-based edge-shooter where it also catalyzes the HLx69R stage? Can't we just use a simple block as can be seen in this post?
It may well be listed as not Spartan because when the article was originally written, the definition of "Spartan" hadn't changed to include eater2s yet, because slsparse and its eater2 recipes had only just appeared on the scene.

It doesn't seem like the eater2 is needed "elsewhere" than the L156-based edgeshooter -- but that's because I can't find any connections for the form of the conduit that uses just a block. I just did a scan through the B->R, C->R, H->R, P->R, and Gn->R elementary conduits, and none of them seem to connect successfully.

Did I miss something good? It would actually be very nice to have an X-to-R that the block form of RNE-19T84 would connect to. RNE-19T84 is an extraordinarily good edge shooter, made significantly less good by the fact that it has to be prefixed by HLx69R, which spews out an awkward extra perpendicular glider that has to be expensively suppressed (e.g., the "extra reset glider" mentioned here).

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by mniemiec » October 3rd, 2021, 11:27 am

Tropylium wrote:
October 3rd, 2021, 8:49 am
I always thought that the difference between a shuttle and a hassler is in what the other components do:
– a shuttle regenerates itself and other components are needed (if needed) only to suppress exhaust;
– a hassler involves a reaction that regenerates itself only after interacting with other active components;
– and something like 49p88 is neither, it's just a track / conduit loop (with no active hasslers, just eaters).

This seems further somewhat analogous to tagalong versus escort / pushalong, where the former depends on a spaceship for its growth in the first place but the latter depends on a spaceship just for stabilization.
This can be a bit difficult to quantify objectively, because there's no rigorous definition of exhaust. E.g. it's easy to consider that the beehive egg dropped by the queen bee is exhaust, but there may be other cases where the distinction is not so obvious. E.g. a still-life or a spark left one space away from the engine, that attacks it immediately. It's probably best to consider many of the category labels we put on patterns as subjective guidelines, rather than objective definitions.

The same thing could be applied to pattern nomenclature. E.g. which is more appropriate, integral with tub, or tub with nine? Both describe the same pattern, but which "ought" to be the "official" name? There's no good answer to that, other than "whatever people happen to use most often", which is necessarily a subjective definition, as there's no objective criteria within the Life rules itself that ought to favor either name.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by GUYTU6J » October 4th, 2021, 12:09 pm

Can I remove the eater 5 from Bx222 and claim it to be Spartan...
(No, this is not simply reviving someone's idea)
...by putting another eater 1 and requiring that it connects to F117-like conduits where the original eater for suppressing first natural block is removed?

Code: Select all

x = 43, y = 37, rule = B3/S23
9b2o$9bo$7bobo10bo$7b2o11b3o$23bo$2o20b2o$2o29bo6bo$29b3o5bobo$28bo8bo
bo$28b2o6b2ob3o$42bo$3bo15b2o15b2ob3o$3bo15b2o15b2obo$b3o$bo3$41b2o$
41bo$39bobo$39b2o7$7bo$7bobo$7b3o$9bo20b2o$30bo$19b2o10b3o$19b2o2b2o8b
o$23bobo$25bo$25b2o!

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » October 4th, 2021, 12:25 pm

GUYTU6J wrote:
October 4th, 2021, 12:09 pm
Can I remove the eater 5 from Bx222 and claim it to be Spartan...
(No, this is not simply reviving someone's idea)
...by putting another eater 1 and requiring that it connects to F117-like conduits where the original eater for suppressing first natural block is removed?
Definitely! So Entity Valkyrie was right after all ... with some limitations. This seems like a variant that it would be reasonable to document in the LifeWiki article -- even if the main variant is still listed as non-Spartan and keeps the TWIT.

Funny thing, I don't think I've ever managed to make any use of the Bx125 or Bx222 conduits in any actual circuitry. Limitations or no limitations, they're just a bit too awkward to be practical. No doubt there are some exceptions from the mid-2000s where smallest-possible circuit connections were found by Hersrch, though.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by creeperman7002 » October 4th, 2021, 3:32 pm

I'm using the oscillator script in B36/S125, so I need to change the domino spark into a block spark. How do I do that?
B2n3-jn/S1c23-y is an interesting rule. It has a replicator, a fake glider, an OMOS and SMOS, a wide variety of oscillators, and some signals. Also this rule is omniperiodic.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4856

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by hotdogPi » October 4th, 2021, 4:20 pm

creeperman7002 wrote:
October 4th, 2021, 3:32 pm
I'm using the oscillator script in B36/S125, so I need to change the domino spark into a block spark. How do I do that?
Unfortunately, that's going to require a rewrite of the code. The program only places spark cells exactly two rows behind the leading edge.

Code: Select all

if len(edge) == 1:
    sparks = [(-2,-1),(-1,0),(0,1),(1,2)]
if len(edge) == 2:
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(2,),(-2,-1),(-1,0),(1,2),(2,3)]
if len(edge) == 3:
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(1,),(2,),(3,),(-2,-1),(-1,0),(2,3),(3,4)]
if len(edge) >= 4:
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(1,),(2,),(3,),(4,),(-2,-1),(-1,0),(0,1),(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5)]
What it does is find the length of the leading edge, truncating it to one segment if there's more than one disconnected segment. It then places sparks at the relative offsets from the first cell in the leading edge and exactly two cells back. Note that some pairs are skipped for CGOL, like (0,1) for edge length 3; this domino is equivalent to a dot in position 2.

S1 is going to mess up dominoes, but dots should still work (as should obo, if you have decent obo sparkers in B36/S125, although the numbers above will need to change; I initially had a few but removed them quite early since I found that almost all the results were uncompletable).
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries

Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576

S: SKOP
G: gun

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by creeperman7002 » October 4th, 2021, 6:31 pm

hotdogPi wrote:
October 4th, 2021, 4:20 pm

Unfortunately, that's going to require a rewrite of the code. The program only places spark cells exactly two rows behind the leading edge.

Code: Select all

if len(edge) == 1:
    sparks = [(-2,-1),(-1,0),(0,1),(1,2)]
if len(edge) == 2:
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(2,),(-2,-1),(-1,0),(1,2),(2,3)]
if len(edge) == 3:
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(1,),(2,),(3,),(-2,-1),(-1,0),(2,3),(3,4)]
if len(edge) >= 4:
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(1,),(2,),(3,),(4,),(-2,-1),(-1,0),(0,1),(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5)]
What it does is find the length of the leading edge, truncating it to one segment if there's more than one disconnected segment. It then places sparks at the relative offsets from the first cell in the leading edge and exactly two cells back. Note that some pairs are skipped for CGOL, like (0,1) for edge length 3; this domino is equivalent to a dot in position 2.

S1 is going to mess up dominoes, but dots should still work (as should obo, if you have decent obo sparkers in B36/S125, although the numbers above will need to change; I initially had a few but removed them quite early since I found that almost all the results were uncompletable).
Could a version of the script suited for B36/S125 be provided?
B2n3-jn/S1c23-y is an interesting rule. It has a replicator, a fake glider, an OMOS and SMOS, a wide variety of oscillators, and some signals. Also this rule is omniperiodic.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4856

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by hotdogPi » October 4th, 2021, 7:02 pm

creeperman7002 wrote:
October 4th, 2021, 6:31 pm
Could a version of the script suited for B36/S125 be provided?
If you simply want dot sparks, this should work, although I haven't tested it:

Code: Select all

if len(edge) == 1:
    sparks = []
if len(edge) == 2:
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(2,)]
if len(edge) >= 3:
    num = 3
    sparks = [(-1,),(0,),(1,),(2,),(3,)]
    while num < len(edge):
        num += 1
        sparks += (num,)
By the way, you can delete these lines, since B36/S125 doesn't have c/4 gliders. It's not actively harmful (it does nothing if there are no c/4 [any direction] mechanisms disconnected from the main area), but it's not necessary, either.

Code: Select all

recent_min_x.append(min_x)
recent_min_x.pop(0)
''Checking for gliders'''
if g.getcells([min_x+3,min(edge)-8,3,16]): #not by itself
    recent_min_x[-1] = 123
if recent_min_x == [recent_min_x[0]]*4 + [recent_min_x[4]]*4 \
                           and recent_min_x[4] == recent_min_x[0] - 1:
    for i in range(min_x, min_x+3):
        for j in range(min(edge),min(edge)+3):
            g.setcell(i,j,0) #delete glider
        test1 = True
        current_gen = g.getcells(g.getrect())[:]
        continue
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries

Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576

S: SKOP
G: gun

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C28
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by C28 » October 4th, 2021, 7:44 pm

what would the growth rate of a breeder that makes sawtooths look like?
- Christopher D'Agostino

adopted father of the U-turner

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
9bo$8bobo$8bobo$9bo8$b3o$b3o$obo$2o!
the U-turner gallery
255P132
B3/S234z (Zlife)

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » October 5th, 2021, 11:43 am

C28 wrote:
October 4th, 2021, 7:44 pm
what would the growth rate of a breeder that makes sawtooths look like?
Unless it's a really complicated breeder with a universal computer in it, each new sawtooth won't be able to be lined up with the minimum population of previous sawtooth patterns. I think in most cases you'd end up with some kind of quadratic growth, wouldn't you? It would just be slightly weird quadratic growth that's it's hard to come up with a simple summary formula for.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by NimbleRogue » October 5th, 2021, 6:08 pm

How do I make golly stop speeding up when running certain rules eg. history?

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 3, rule = B3-cnqy4e5kr6n7c/S2-i3-ay4einrtyz5cejn6cin78
bo$3o$ob2o!

Code: Select all

#14c/85265o
x = 10, y = 4, rule = B2-an3-iqy4iknrtz5aijqy6aei78/S02ck3nqy4eiqrtwy5-ekq6-i78
2bo4bo$3b4o$ob6obo$2b6o!

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » October 5th, 2021, 6:29 pm

NimbleRogue wrote:
October 5th, 2021, 6:08 pm
How do I make golly stop speeding up when running certain rules eg. history?
There's a setting that you have to know about. Make sure Control > Hyperspeed is not checked. I haven't turned it on for about a decade, so I often forget that it exists... it never speeds up at quite the speed that I want it to speed up, anyway.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by NimbleRogue » October 5th, 2021, 7:10 pm

thanks for the info

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 3, rule = B3-cnqy4e5kr6n7c/S2-i3-ay4einrtyz5cejn6cin78
bo$3o$ob2o!

Code: Select all

#14c/85265o
x = 10, y = 4, rule = B2-an3-iqy4iknrtz5aijqy6aei78/S02ck3nqy4eiqrtwy5-ekq6-i78
2bo4bo$3b4o$ob6obo$2b6o!

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by bubblegum » October 6th, 2021, 6:25 pm

NimbleRogue wrote:
October 5th, 2021, 7:10 pm
thanks for the info
(Here's a tip: now that the forums have the like post feature, you can just heart the response rather than posting a separate message to thank!)
dvgrn wrote:
October 5th, 2021, 6:29 pm
[…] it never speeds up at quite the speed that I want it to speed up, anyway.
How is Hyperspeed's speed-up calculated?  I always thought it was calculated based on what Golly could handle efficiently, but a more plausible explanation would be that it just speeds up at a constant rate.
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July 2nd, 2020, 8:33 pm
conwaylife signatures are amazing[citation needed]
anything

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by calcyman » October 6th, 2021, 6:38 pm

bubblegum wrote:
October 6th, 2021, 6:25 pm
How is Hyperspeed's speed-up calculated?  I always thought it was calculated based on what Golly could handle efficiently, but a more plausible explanation would be that it just speeds up at a constant rate.
IIRC, it bumps up the step size every 64 steps.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by mniemiec » October 7th, 2021, 3:14 am

Kiran wrote:
February 25th, 2016, 4:37 pm

Code: Select all

#N 13hw.rle ...
This pattern looks like the result of a corrupted rle.
It's not corrupted. It's a large number of before-and-after images of various different ways of synthesizing a HWSS. There is one layout error, where the garbage blinker from one synthesis is hit by an HWSS from the synthesis below it.

Such files are intended to be able to run with all parts running simultaneously without interference, but that one part was overlooked. My most up-to-date version on my hard drive contains the same error, so I'm going to need to reposition some of the pieces so that the offending collision has nothing below it that could hit the blinker. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by GUYTU6J » October 7th, 2021, 4:26 am

mniemiec wrote:
October 7th, 2021, 3:14 am
Kiran wrote:
February 25th, 2016, 4:37 pm

Code: Select all

#N 13hw.rle ...
This pattern looks like the result of a corrupted rle.
It's not corrupted. It's a large number of before-and-after images of various different ways of synthesizing a HWSS. There is one layout error, where the garbage blinker from one synthesis is hit by an HWSS from the synthesis below it.

Such files are intended to be able to run with all parts running simultaneously without interference, but that one part was overlooked. My most up-to-date version on my hard drive contains the same error, so I'm going to need to reposition some of the pieces so that the offending collision has nothing below it that could hit the blinker. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Please make sure you have checked the post time before replying! :wink:
mniemiec wrote:
January 22nd, 2021, 12:36 pm
Kiran wrote:
February 25th, 2016, 4:37 pm
... This pattern looks like the result of a corrupted rle.
Are you referring to the use of the "x" state? In my synthesis database, I have always "o" for "before" cells and "x" for "after" cells, and sometimes "y" for "junk" cells (for Life programs that choose to differentiate between them). Most programs (e.g. Golly using the QuickLife engine) will just treat them the same under normal Life rules, so you will see a monochromatic pattern.
mniemiec wrote:
January 22nd, 2021, 2:05 pm
bubblegum wrote:
January 22nd, 2021, 1:38 pm
This is a post from 2016.
MathAndCode wrote:
January 22nd, 2021, 1:57 pm
It's on the bottom of the first page, so maybe he saw that there were new posts there but accidentally clicked to go to this thread in general instead of to go to the latest posts, scrolled down in order to go to the latest posts because he realized that he was at the top of the page, and didn't notice the page number.
Ah, yes! That was it! That does happen sometimes, but I usually notice before I start taking a post seriously. This is what happens when I get up and quickly check posts before having to rush out the door.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by mniemiec » October 7th, 2021, 12:29 pm

GUYTU6J wrote:
October 7th, 2021, 4:26 am
Please make sure you have checked the post time before replying! :wink:
Good idea! Ugh! Every time I read posts from this group, I always click on the most recent pages and scroll to the end, to get the most recent posts. For some reason, when I was checking messages yesterday, I erroneously clicked on the FIRST page of each of the threads that had been updated; I caught myself on most of them, but, apparently, one skipped my notice. (This is rare, but it isn't the first time). Comments from somebody I never heard of before should usually be good clue!

It's all good; it ended up pointing out a minor bug in my database that has remained uncorrected for 8 years!

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by creeperman7002 » October 10th, 2021, 9:43 am

Which unknown period partials (19, 34, 38, 41) look the most promising?
B2n3-jn/S1c23-y is an interesting rule. It has a replicator, a fake glider, an OMOS and SMOS, a wide variety of oscillators, and some signals. Also this rule is omniperiodic.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4856

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by C28 » October 11th, 2021, 8:40 am

creeperman7002 wrote:
October 10th, 2021, 9:43 am
Which unknown period partials (19, 34, 38, 41) look the most promising?
this one seems to have potential

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 27, rule = B3/S23
bo2bo$6o5$4b2o3b2o$2b2obo3bob2o$2bo9bo$2bobo5bobo$o2b2ob3ob2o$5bo3bo$
5bo3bo$6b3o2b3o$10bo3bo$10bo3bo$8b2ob3ob2o2bo$7bobo5bobo$7bo9bo$7b2obo
3bob2o$9b2o3b2o5$14b6o$15bo2bo!
- Christopher D'Agostino

adopted father of the U-turner

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
9bo$8bobo$8bobo$9bo8$b3o$b3o$obo$2o!
the U-turner gallery
255P132
B3/S234z (Zlife)

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by hotdogPi » October 11th, 2021, 8:43 am

creeperman7002 wrote:
October 10th, 2021, 9:43 am
Which unknown period partials (19, 34, 38, 41) look the most promising?
34 and 38 look significantly more likely than 19 and 41. The p41 partial I found would have worked if it was even, as one of Kazyan's almost working ones used a clock and actually would have worked at 34 or 38. In addition, there are shuttles like the one below found this year not by me that only work at even periods (this one 22):

Code: Select all

x = 19, y = 20, rule = B3/S23
12b2o$12bo2b2o$9b2obo3bo$2b2o5bo2bobo$3bo6bobob2o$3bobo5b2o3bo$4b2o8b
2o2bo$15bob2o$15bo$7b3o4b2o$3b2o5bo$3bo7bo$2obo6bo$o2bobo3bo3b2o$2bo3b
o6bobo$3b2ob2o7bo$4bobob2o5b2o$2bo3bob2o$2b2o2bo$5b2o!
Two of the three non-sparker oscillators I've found require an even period: 74 and 196. (The other is period 14, which is even but not by necessity).
Then there's the fact that if we find a p17 sparker, we have a p34.

C28, there was a two-day search on that. It found nothing, despite some very close calls.
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries

Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576

S: SKOP
G: gun

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by GUYTU6J » October 25th, 2021, 12:40 am

Is there a non-Google site that provides up-to-date Golly on Android?

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by C28 » October 25th, 2021, 6:26 pm

which conduits/converters have appeared naturally from a soup so far?
- Christopher D'Agostino

adopted father of the U-turner

Code: Select all

x = 11, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
9bo$8bobo$8bobo$9bo8$b3o$b3o$obo$2o!
the U-turner gallery
255P132
B3/S234z (Zlife)

hotdogPi
Posts: 1587
Joined: August 12th, 2020, 8:22 pm

Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by hotdogPi » October 26th, 2021, 8:59 am

C28 wrote:
October 25th, 2021, 6:26 pm
which conduits/converters have appeared naturally from a soup so far?
SW-2: B + beehive: Occurs once every 425,000 soups.
RF28B: R + loaf or R + boat: Occurs once every 1,000,000 soups.
Conduit 1: B + block + fishhook: Has occurred approximately 124 times with a fishhook replacing the snake, since fishhooks are more common than snakes. The fishhook can take two possible positions. The canonical form with the snake has occurred approximately 17 times. An aircraft carrier has replaced the snake approximately 61 times.

The numbers for the ones that list B-heptominoes do not include B-heptominoes that form from R-pentominoes; if they did, the numbers would be higher.
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries

Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576

S: SKOP
G: gun

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