Thread for basic questions

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wwei47
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by wwei47 » June 15th, 2021, 10:56 pm

mniemiec wrote:
June 15th, 2021, 10:49 pm
Once all cells have been mapped without encountering such a problem, you have successfully unwrapped your still life.
Thanks! What about oscillators or spaceships?
Help me find high-period c/2 technology!
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Most wanted periods: 76,116

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by mniemiec » June 15th, 2021, 11:44 pm

wwei47 wrote:
June 15th, 2021, 10:56 pm
mniemiec wrote:
June 15th, 2021, 10:49 pm
Once all cells have been mapped without encountering such a problem, you have successfully unwrapped your still life.
Thanks! What about oscillators or spaceships?
Basically the same thing, except that for oscillators you're effectively dealing with an additional vertical dimension in a cylinder, and you do object-detection and connectivity tracing for 3-dimensional objects. Spaceships are similar, except the connection from the top and bottom are shifted by the spaceship velocity.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by praosylen » June 16th, 2021, 12:15 am

mniemiec wrote:
June 15th, 2021, 11:44 pm
wwei47 wrote:
June 15th, 2021, 10:56 pm
Thanks! What about oscillators or spaceships?
Basically the same thing, except that for oscillators you're effectively dealing with an additional vertical dimension in a cylinder, and you do object-detection and connectivity tracing for 3-dimensional objects. Spaceships are similar, except the connection from the top and bottom are shifted by the spaceship velocity.
I was about to write up an explanation about using cell connectivity graphs with nodes embedded into 3D spacetime, but it looks like you got here before me! One thing I would say is that spaceships are very tricky on toric grids because the only way they can really be distinguished from wicks/agars/infinite objects just via connectivity graphs is the topology of their embedding, which I doubt is easy to find algorithmically. Probably what I would say is the most practical way (still a slow-ish way sometimes, but it shouldn't be awful) to tell if the wick or agar your program spat out is actually infinite or just a spaceship is to put every phase by themselves on an infinite grid and run them — if any of them are spaceships that match the evolution of the pattern on the torus, your pattern is a spaceship, otherwise it's probably not. Do note that this will miss spaceships that "wrap" more than once around the grid, like, say, a lot of the c/5ds here — there are probably clever tricks that could catch more of these cases, but alas since I don't know how to do any kind of computational topology (is that even a thing?) I don't know of an algorithm that would identify spaceships completely accurately.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by ihatecorderships » June 17th, 2021, 12:18 pm

Why is the canonical version of the century this:

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
b3o$3bo$ob2o$2o!
and not the bookend or the normal B-hept-minus-one cell predecessor?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » June 17th, 2021, 12:45 pm

ihatecorderships wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 12:18 pm
Why is the canonical version of the century this:

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
b3o$3bo$ob2o$2o!
and not the bookend or the normal B-hept-minus-one cell predecessor?
I think that I was the one who picked that form for the Elementary Conduits Collection, and I'm not sure if I had any particularly good reason. It seemed less easy to confuse it with B-heptominoes, maybe, and also it was more likely that the various century predecessors would have settled down to exactly that form. (?)

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by hotdogPi » June 17th, 2021, 1:46 pm

I use that form of the century when running my program to make sure everything gets counted. I can't find a common predecessor that doesn't reach its standard parent, but I'm sure there is one and I'm not finding it.
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries

Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by MathAndCode » June 17th, 2021, 2:31 pm

hotdogPi wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 1:46 pm
I use that form of the century when running my program to make sure everything gets counted. I can't find a common predecessor that doesn't reach its standard parent, but I'm sure there is one and I'm not finding it.
I doubt that there's anything common. I've never seen anything converge to the century sequence at the century's great-grandchild.
dvgrn wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 12:45 pm
I think that I was the one who picked that form for the Elementary Conduits Collection, and I'm not sure if I had any particularly good reason. It seemed less easy to confuse it with B-heptominoes, maybe, and also it was more likely that the various century predecessors would have settled down to exactly that form. (?)
Maybe it's done in order to make the name century more accurate?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by mniemiec » June 17th, 2021, 4:38 pm

ihatecorderships wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 12:18 pm
Why is the canonical version of the century this: ... and not the bookend or the normal B-hept-minus-one cell predecessor?
This sometimes comes up instead of a bookend:

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
bboo$3boo$bobo$obo!

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by praosylen » June 17th, 2021, 4:42 pm

mniemiec wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 4:38 pm
ihatecorderships wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 12:18 pm
Why is the canonical version of the century this: ... and not the bookend or the normal B-hept-minus-one cell predecessor?
This sometimes comes up instead of a bookend:

Code: Select all

rle
As does this, which I find to be more common:

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
b3o$o$o$bo!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by MathAndCode » June 17th, 2021, 6:54 pm

mniemiec wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 4:38 pm
This sometimes comes up instead of a bookend:

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
bboo$3boo$bobo$obo!
I've never seen that occur naturally. Can you provide an example?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by mniemiec » June 17th, 2021, 7:18 pm

MathAndCode wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 6:54 pm
I've never seen that occur naturally. Can you provide an example?
Not that one in particular, but I've seen the related predecessor (where the bookend itself has an open hinge) occur occasionally.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by MathAndCode » June 17th, 2021, 7:55 pm

What are the eight-cell predecessors of a clean very long boat and dirty very long ship that Achim Flammenkamp's census page refers to?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » June 18th, 2021, 7:07 am

mniemiec wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 7:18 pm
MathAndCode wrote:
June 17th, 2021, 6:54 pm
I've never seen that occur naturally. Can you provide an example?
Not that one in particular, but I've seen the related predecessor (where the bookend itself has an open hinge) occur occasionally.
Looks like mniemiec's variant is just common enough that a natural result shows up in the octohash database -- just one, though!

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
b2o$obo$bo$4b2o$3bo2bo$3bo2bo$4b2o3$4bo$3b2o$3bobo!

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by hotdogPi » June 18th, 2021, 10:47 am

dvgrn wrote:
June 18th, 2021, 7:07 am
Looks like mniemiec's variant is just common enough that a natural result shows up in the octohash database -- just one, though!

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
b2o$obo$bo$4b2o$3bo2bo$3bo2bo$4b2o3$4bo$3b2o$3bobo!
I think the more common "variant" was this one:

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
bo$3o$o2bo$3bo$2bo!
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries

Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576

S: SKOP
G: gun

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by ColorfulGabrielsp138 » June 19th, 2021, 2:28 am

Is there a Herschel conduit that outputs the xp0_16o4 Herschel parent?
Does xp0_16o4 have a known glider synthesis?

Code: Select all

x = 21, y = 21, rule = LifeColorful
11.E$10.3E$10.E.2E$13.E4$2.2B$.2B$2B$.2B15.2D$19.2D$18.2D$17.2D4$7.C$
7.2C.C$8.3C$9.C!
I have reduced the glider cost of quadratic growth to eight and probably to seven. Looking for conduits...

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » June 19th, 2021, 8:04 am

ColorfulGabrielsp138 wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 2:28 am
Is there a Herschel conduit that outputs the xp0_16o4 Herschel parent?
Does xp0_16o4 have a known glider synthesis?
I don't know of any conduits that produce much of anything besides 4bo$5b2o$obobo$obo! The only exception I can remember is the Fx158, which produces just 2bo$3b2o$obo$o! instead.

Code: Select all

x = 120, y = 48, rule = LifeHistory
86.5D9.D3.5D2.3D$86.D12.2D3.D5.D3.D$86.D5.D3.D3.D3.D5.D3.D$86.3D4.D.D
4.D4.3D3.3D$86.D7.D5.D7.D.D3.D$86.D6.D.D4.D3.D3.D.D3.D$86.D5.D3.D2.3D
3.3D3.3D3$16.5D9.D3.5D2.3D$16.D12.2D3.D5.D3.D$16.D5.D3.D3.D3.D9.D$16.
3D4.D.D4.D4.3D3.3D$16.D7.D5.D7.D5.D$16.D6.D.D4.D3.D3.D.D3.D$16.D5.D3.
D2.3D3.3D3.3D55.2A$99.2A12.A$111.3A$99.4A7.A$96.A.A4.A6.2A$94.3A.2A2.
2A4.4B$93.A4.B3.4B.3B$90.A2.4AB2AB3.6B$90.3A3.A.2AB.7B.B$93.A4.14B$
32.2A58.2AB4.12B3.2B$7.2A24.A58.5B.20B$8.A13.2A6.3A61.25B$8.A.AB9.B2A
2B4.A61.28B$9.2AB.3B6.4B.3B62.28B$11.7B2.11B7.7B.B44.28B$11.22B.B3.
13B.B38.28B$12.24BD21B34.25BADB$11.26BD20BAD31.25B2DCA$9.28B2D18B2DCA
28.20B2.4BADAD$7.29B2D2B2A12BABADAD27.19B5.4BAD$7.2BD26BD3B2A12BABAD
29.2BD16B5.5B$6.3BDBD4B.30B3.2B2.2B30.3BDBD4B.9B6.3B$7.2B3D4B2.16B2.
10B41.2B3D4B2.7B$6.5BD4B2.7B.4B7.6B43.5BD4B3.5B$5.10B4.6B2.2B9.3B44.
10B5.4B$4.4B11.6B13.B45.4B10.4B.B2A$4.3B13.3B14.2A45.3B11.2A3.BA.A$2.
4B12.7B12.A44.4B13.A6.A$2.2A14.2A.B.2A13.3A41.2A12.3A7.2A$3.A15.A3.A
16.A42.A12.A$3A13.3A5.3A53.3A$A15.A9.A53.A!
I also don't think there's a known glider synthesis. I bet someone could come up with one if they really had to, but it's hard to imagine why it would ever be an improvement on a much cheaper standard synthesis. There's nothing for that 2bo$3b2o$b2o$o! active pattern from synthesise_pattern or the octohash database, for example.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by bibunsekibun » June 19th, 2021, 5:59 pm

Does xp2 with apgcode include xp2 exist in Life?
sorry I can only speak Japanese, English is made by machine translation
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by ColorfulGabrielsp138 » June 19th, 2021, 9:55 pm

dvgrn wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 8:04 am
ColorfulGabrielsp138 wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 2:28 am
Is there a Herschel conduit that outputs the xp0_16o4 Herschel parent?
Does xp0_16o4 have a known glider synthesis?
I don't know of any conduits that produce much of anything besides 4bo$5b2o$obobo$obo! The only exception I can remember is the Fx158, which produces just 2bo$3b2o$obo$o! instead.

Code: Select all

x = 120, y = 48, rule = LifeHistory
86.5D9.D3.5D2.3D$86.D12.2D3.D5.D3.D$86.D5.D3.D3.D3.D5.D3.D$86.3D4.D.D
4.D4.3D3.3D$86.D7.D5.D7.D.D3.D$86.D6.D.D4.D3.D3.D.D3.D$86.D5.D3.D2.3D
3.3D3.3D3$16.5D9.D3.5D2.3D$16.D12.2D3.D5.D3.D$16.D5.D3.D3.D3.D9.D$16.
3D4.D.D4.D4.3D3.3D$16.D7.D5.D7.D5.D$16.D6.D.D4.D3.D3.D.D3.D$16.D5.D3.
D2.3D3.3D3.3D55.2A$99.2A12.A$111.3A$99.4A7.A$96.A.A4.A6.2A$94.3A.2A2.
2A4.4B$93.A4.B3.4B.3B$90.A2.4AB2AB3.6B$90.3A3.A.2AB.7B.B$93.A4.14B$
32.2A58.2AB4.12B3.2B$7.2A24.A58.5B.20B$8.A13.2A6.3A61.25B$8.A.AB9.B2A
2B4.A61.28B$9.2AB.3B6.4B.3B62.28B$11.7B2.11B7.7B.B44.28B$11.22B.B3.
13B.B38.28B$12.24BD21B34.25BADB$11.26BD20BAD31.25B2DCA$9.28B2D18B2DCA
28.20B2.4BADAD$7.29B2D2B2A12BABADAD27.19B5.4BAD$7.2BD26BD3B2A12BABAD
29.2BD16B5.5B$6.3BDBD4B.30B3.2B2.2B30.3BDBD4B.9B6.3B$7.2B3D4B2.16B2.
10B41.2B3D4B2.7B$6.5BD4B2.7B.4B7.6B43.5BD4B3.5B$5.10B4.6B2.2B9.3B44.
10B5.4B$4.4B11.6B13.B45.4B10.4B.B2A$4.3B13.3B14.2A45.3B11.2A3.BA.A$2.
4B12.7B12.A44.4B13.A6.A$2.2A14.2A.B.2A13.3A41.2A12.3A7.2A$3.A15.A3.A
16.A42.A12.A$3A13.3A5.3A53.3A$A15.A9.A53.A!
I also don't think there's a known glider synthesis. I bet someone could come up with one if they really had to, but it's hard to imagine why it would ever be an improvement on a much cheaper standard synthesis. There's nothing for that 2bo$3b2o$b2o$o! active pattern from synthesise_pattern or the octohash database, for example.
Why did you prefer RLE instead of apgcode?

Code: Select all

x = 21, y = 21, rule = LifeColorful
11.E$10.3E$10.E.2E$13.E4$2.2B$.2B$2B$.2B15.2D$19.2D$18.2D$17.2D4$7.C$
7.2C.C$8.3C$9.C!
I have reduced the glider cost of quadratic growth to eight and probably to seven. Looking for conduits...

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by wwei47 » June 19th, 2021, 9:59 pm

How can I hack dr to create and load save files? I'm sick of losing my progress every single time the power goes out.
Help me find high-period c/2 technology!
My guide: https://bit.ly/3uJtzu9
My c/2 tech collection: https://bit.ly/3qUJg0u
Overview of periods: https://bit.ly/3LwE0I5
Most wanted periods: 76,116

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by dvgrn » June 19th, 2021, 10:44 pm

ColorfulGabrielsp138 wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 9:55 pm
Why did you prefer RLE instead of apgcode?
I can copy RLE straight out of Golly, and someone can copy and paste RLE straight back into Golly and see what it is -- or get a picture of it by decoding it manually, for small enough patterns.

I'm not as confident of my ability to get the picture exactly right for a small-to-middling apgcode -- just haven't practiced as much.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by bubblegum » June 20th, 2021, 12:01 am

ColorfulGabrielsp138 wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 9:55 pm
Why did you prefer RLE instead of apgcode?
Why did you prefer apgcode instead of RLE?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by yujh » June 20th, 2021, 12:06 am

bubblegum wrote:
June 20th, 2021, 12:01 am
ColorfulGabrielsp138 wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 9:55 pm
Why did you prefer RLE instead of apgcode?
Why did you prefer apgcode instead of RLE?
Yeah, same question
Rule modifier

B34kz5e7c8/S23-a4ityz5k
b2n3-q5y6cn7s23-k4c8
B3-kq6cn8/S2-i3-a4ciyz8
B3-kq4z5e7c8/S2-ci3-a4ciq5ek6eik7

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by mniemiec » June 20th, 2021, 12:23 am

ColorfulGabrielsp138 wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 9:55 pm
Why did you prefer RLE instead of apgcode?
One advantage RLE has over apgcode is that it encodes the rule with the pattern, making it easy to copy/paste a pattern into a progarm like Golly, instead of the rule having to be carried through a separate and independent channel. apgcode is also only suitable for encoding a small subset of patterns (i.e. still-lifes, oscillators, and spaceships); patterns that aren't one of these can't easily be encoded. In particular, linearly expanding patterns are encoded as yl_... which only encodes a histogram of the pattern's population, but not its actual bit image, making the mapping from apgcode to bit image not unique, and also impossible to reverse. xs0_... is a work-around for arbitrary patterns, but apgcode wasn't really designed for that. It also can't encode images in rules with more than two states.

apgcode is useful for encoding many small one-line pattern images together in one large database.

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by ColorfulGabrielsp138 » June 20th, 2021, 12:45 am

dvgrn wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 10:44 pm
ColorfulGabrielsp138 wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 9:55 pm
Why did you prefer RLE instead of apgcode?
I can copy RLE straight out of Golly, and someone can copy and paste RLE straight back into Golly and see what it is -- or get a picture of it by decoding it manually, for small enough patterns.

I'm not as confident of my ability to get the picture exactly right for a small-to-middling apgcode -- just haven't practiced as much.
I had an apgcode to RLE converter program but I can't attach it to Golly.

EDIT: How common is the xp0_16o4 relative to the xp0_15o4 or the Herschel parent from the B-heptomino?
Have you ever seen xp0_16o4 naturally appear from random soup?

EDIT 2: Can this be considered a "turner"? Is it color-preserving or color-changing?

Code: Select all

x = 12, y = 12, rule = TripleB3S23
2F$.F$.2F$2.2F6$9.3F$9.F$10.F!

Code: Select all

x = 21, y = 21, rule = LifeColorful
11.E$10.3E$10.E.2E$13.E4$2.2B$.2B$2B$.2B15.2D$19.2D$18.2D$17.2D4$7.C$
7.2C.C$8.3C$9.C!
I have reduced the glider cost of quadratic growth to eight and probably to seven. Looking for conduits...

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Post by hkoenig » June 20th, 2021, 1:11 am

Also, apgcode will lose any location and transform information which can be necessary when placing objects. If you wanted to use it as an RLE substitute, you need to include that info.

I've found that an object oriented Life editor can have some advantages over the standard infinite bitplane when it comes to manipulating patterns that can be broken down into component parts, like Glider constructions. The editor applies transforms to the canonical objects and then combines them all into the bitpattern that gets run. Make a modification to the transform-- rebuild the pattern and run again.

Also, the apgcode prefix gets in the way, as it is more for gross indexing and a convenience to human readers. (And incomplete, as I would prefer it contain both period and bits for oscillators, for example.) Without the prefix, it does function as a very useful key/index for databases, or in places where you want to compare objects for equality.

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