Catalyst Discussion Thread

[M. I. Wright]

How about this boat+eater combo?

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x = 30, y = 14, rule = LifeHistory
3A$A2.A17.3A$.3A16.A2.A$20.3A5$3.C$2.C.A2.CA13.C$2.2A3.A.A11.C.A2.CA$
9.A11.2A3.A.A$9.2A17.A$28.2A!

[Scorbie]

@Wright I'll try to run that soon.
In the meanwhile can anyone come up with some better names for the catalysts?

Code: Select all

x = 58, y = 9, rule = B3/S23
41b2o$19b2o10b2o9bo$o2bo13bo2bo8bo2bo9bob2o5b2o3b2o$4o10bo2b2o10b2o8b
2ob2obo5bo2bo2bo$6bo6bobobo7bobobo7bo2bo11b5o$2b5o6b2obo2bo5b2obo2bo5b
2obo$2bo13bob2o8bob2o7bo14bo$4bo11bo11bo10bobo11bobo$3b2o10b2o10b2o11b
2o12bo!

I thought to name the first one as "Table-end", but that name is not analogous. (Because the part of the Bookend catalyst corresponding to the table in the "table-end" is a bookend, not a book.) So I would like to hear other's opinions of names to both.
The others... I haven't a clue. Is "Long Dock" okay? @A for awesome Would I name the catalysts you suggested as Pierce-xxx or something else?
I'm not too pleased with the names Kazyan (No offense, Kazyan, but are you okay/how would you like it named?) and "edgy-b-to-g" either. If there's a consensus of names in this thread then I'll use that name later on, if it makes sense.

If you would like to put other names to other catalysts, then post a reply here.

[gameoflifeboy]

My names for the first still life is "Z siamese carrier and table". The next two are "Cis-boat with long leg on ???" and "Hook with long leg on ???", where the ??? represents the siamese-carriers induction coil I haven't thought of or found a name for yet.
The last one should probably be "Tub and very long house", although "Tub and long dock" is okay. I don't have a name for either piece of the fourth one yet.

[Scorbie]

@gameoflifeboy Thanks for your suggestions. I would like to use most of the names you suggested, but would like to elaborate some minor details.

My names for the first still life is "Z siamese carrier and table". 

I forgot to tell you that the forms shown may not be identical to the forms used in the search. For instance, for that catalyst, I use this tetramer form:

Code: Select all

x = 10, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory
3.C2.C$3.4A$A8.A$10A2$10A$A8.A$3.4A$3.C2.C!

Still, I think the name of the monomer is okay. Just showing you in case knowing this would change your mind.
And for the tub... Um that tub is not present at real searches... ( the long-dock/house is inducted to itself ) And others use snakes as an inductor for bounding box reduction, but I appreciate your suggestions. (And this is my personal opinion. If the consensus says tub, it is tub.)


EDIT: Finished the test with Wright's suggestions. The boat+eater combo seems not bad, having 176 catalyses out of 1000 soups, with a relative frequency of 0.176. (Edited the script so that the conditions were the same as the catalyst frequency test.) Note that I only filtered the boat and eater catalyses, which seemed to be enough. Here are the 176 catalyses.

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#P 400 1200
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#P 480 1200
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#P 640 1200
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It can eat a TL in a sort of interesting way:

Code: Select all

x = 10, y = 9, rule = B3/S23
2o4b2o$2bo2bobo$2bo3bo$2bo$2o$6b2o$6bo$7b3o$9bo!

[praosylen]

@A for awesome Would I name the catalysts you suggested as Pierce-xxx or something else?

Hive-tail-eater #1, hive-tail-eater #2, two blocks, block and eater, long hook and block, long hook, eater on dock, modified long hook and block.

[Scorbie]

@A for awesome Would I name the catalysts you suggested as Pierce-xxx or something else?

Hive-tail-eater #1, hive-tail-eater #2, two blocks, block and eater, long hook and block, long hook, eater on dock, modified long hook and block.

Whoops, apologies to A for awesome... Didn't see your big new post of new catalysts... Will census with that next time. I was referring to your first suggestions:

Code: Select all

x = 33, y = 9, rule = B3/S23
28b2o$6b2o10b2o9bo$4bo2bo8bo2bo9bob2o$bo2b2o10b2o8b2ob2obo$obobo7bobob
o7bo2bo$2obo2bo5b2obo2bo5b2obo$3bob2o8bob2o7bo$3bo11bo10bobo$2b2o10b2o
11b2o!

EDIT:

To be honest, I have no earthly idea.

Hehe, yep those are pretty hard to find a good name. I followed gameoflifeboy's suggestions and named the first two boat_with_long_leg_on_sth and hook_with_long_leg_on_sth.
EDIT2:
Meanwhile, here's the search with all catalysts with frequency > 0.3 added to the control group. + with some new catalysts. Yep, that block_eater is what you think. (And yes, I decided to add this independently from A for awesome suggestions.)

Code: Select all

0.405 uniq_block_eater
0.256 uniq_table_table
0.231 uniq_pi_splitter
0.203 uniq_gourmet
0.183 uniq_twit
0.171 uniq_boat_eater
0.166 uniq_pierce
0.163 uniq_edgy_b_to_g
0.157 uniq_kazyan
0.157 uniq_transp_hive
0.143 uniq_eater_table
0.142 uniq_transp_block
0.134 uniq_eater_hook_with_tail
0.093 uniq_boat_with_long_leg_on_sth
0.092 uniq_mikep
0.086 uniq_transp_loaf
0.081 uniq_reflector_hook
0.066 uniq_hook_with_long_leg_on_sth
0.065 uniq_sokwe
0.050 uniq_ship_eater_variant
0.047 uniq_transp_boat
0.042 uniq_long_dock
0.030 uniq_beehive_with_long_leg
0.025 uniq_table
0.021 uniq_dead_spark_coil
0.017 uniq_transp_pond
0.013 uniq_boat_with_tail
0.011 uniq_ship

"sokwe" is this one that Sokwe mentioned way before.

Code: Select all

x = 17, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
2$6bo2$7b3o$8bo2$8b2o2bo$7bob4o$5b3o$4bo3b3o$5b3o2bo$7bo!

[praosylen]

@A for awesome Would I name the catalysts you suggested as Pierce-xxx or something else?

Hive-tail-eater #1, hive-tail-eater #2, two blocks, block and eater, long hook and block, long hook, eater on dock, modified long hook and block.

Whoops, apologies to A for awesome... Didn't see your big new post of new catalysts... Will census with that next time. I was referring to your first suggestions:

Code: Select all

x = 33, y = 9, rule = B3/S23
28b2o$6b2o10b2o9bo$4bo2bo8bo2bo9bob2o$bo2b2o10b2o8b2ob2obo$obobo7bobob
o7bo2bo$2obo2bo5b2obo2bo5b2obo$3bob2o8bob2o7bo$3bo11bo10bobo$2b2o10b2o
11b2o!

To be honest, I have no earthly idea.

[gmc_nxtman]

By reducing the first catalyst, its name becomes trivial: table siamese carrier on boat.

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
6b2o$4bo2bo$bo2b2o$obobo$2o2bo$4b2o!

Also, I propose naming this one

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 7, rule = B3/S23
o2bo$4o$6bo$2b5o$2bo$4bo$3b2o!

as "Table on big pedestal".

[praosylen]

By reducing the first catalyst, its name becomes trivial: table siamese carrier on boat.

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
6b2o$4bo2bo$bo2b2o$obobo$2o2bo$4b2o!

Oh, true. What was I thinking!

[Scorbie]

By reducing the first catalyst, its name becomes trivial: table siamese carrier on boat.

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
6b2o$4bo2bo$bo2b2o$obobo$2o2bo$4b2o!

Oh, true. What was I thinking!

Table siamese carrier on boat it is. Mind you though, these two aren't strictly the same. The cis-boat with long leg on sth has some catalyses that table siamese carrier on boat cannot do.

Code: Select all

x = 40, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
4bo2bo26bo2bo$ob2o3b3o20bob2o3b3o$2o2bo3b2o20b2o2bo3b2o$3obo2bobo20b3o
bo2bobo$o2bob2o2bo20bo2bob2o2bo$4o3bobo20b4o3bobo$b6ob2o21b6ob2o$b6ob
2o21b6ob2o$5o4bo20b5o4bo$2ob2obo23b2ob2obo5$b2o28b2o$bo2bo26bo2bo$3b2o
2bo25b2o2bo$4bobobo25bobobo$2bo2bob2o25bo2b2o$2b2obo27b2o$5bo$5b2o!

Hopefully these are about 3/1000 (relative to the census done above) So I think they are negligible.

Also, I propose naming this one:

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 7, rule = B3/S23
o2bo$4o$6bo$2b5o$2bo$4bo$3b2o!

as "Table on big pedestal".

Good. I think that one's easier to remember.
EDIT: I have this one as Pierce. I'd like to hear A for awesome's thought about it; If Pierce/A_for_Awesome/etc. is good, that it is. Else, other names you suggest is welcome.

Code: Select all

x = 33, y = 9, rule = LifeHistory
2.2A2.2A.2A13.2A2.2A$A2.A3.A.A12.A2.A3.A$3A4.A.A12.3A4.A.2A$4.CA.A.2A
15.CA.2A.A$2.C2.A.A2.C13.C2.A$2.2A.A.AC15.2A.A$3.A.A20.A$3.A.A20.A.A$
2.2A.2A20.2A!

[Scorbie]

(EDIT; rewrote everything)
Tweaked the code to deal with some caveats, and here's the result of the 2000-soup search I ran:

Code: Select all

0.316 uniq_block_eater
0.226 uniq_table_table
0.224 uniq_pi_splitter
0.198 uniq_gourmet
0.157 uniq_pierce
0.149 uniq_edgy_b_to_g
0.143 uniq_twit
0.138 uniq_transp_block
0.138 uniq_kazyan
0.137 uniq_transp_hive
0.136 uniq_eater_hook_with_tail
0.136 uniq_long_hook
0.120 uniq_boat_eater
0.102 uniq_eater_table
0.093 uniq_transp_ship
0.079 uniq_transp_loaf
0.061 uniq_reflector_hook
0.060 uniq_table_table+1
0.060 uniq_sokwe
0.057 uniq_two_blocks
0.056 uniq_mikep
0.050 uniq_long_dock
0.042 uniq_eater_on_dock
0.038 uniq_transp_tub
0.037 uniq_modified_long_hook_and_block
0.037 uniq_transp_boat
0.032 uniq_long_hook_and_block
0.026 uniq_moose_antlers-1
0.025 uniq_moose_antlers
0.024 uniq_ship_eater_variant
0.022 uniq_beehive_with_long_leg
0.020 uniq_hook_with_long_leg_on_sth
0.017 uniq_hive_with_tail
0.016 uniq_ship
0.014 uniq_dead_spark_coil
0.013 uniq_table
0.012 uniq_hive-tail-eater#1
0.011 uniq_hive-tail-eater#2
0.011 uniq_transp_pond
0.009 uniq_boat_with_tail

And here are the catalyst reactions:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B057ay ... sp=sharing

[dvgrn]

(EDIT; rewrote everything)
Tweaked the code to deal with some caveats, and here's the result of the 2000-soup search I ran...

I've been paying attention to this thread without contributing, but now I have to say: this catalyst rating project is really awesome.

It takes care of a line of research I've been going on about for years now (and I see I'm not the only one) -- but I was never brave enough to tackle it. I was mostly interested in rating relatively small simple objects that might find a use in self-contructing circuitry. This is a lot more ambitious, and it's really nice to see those ratings as part of a larger survey.

I take it that the standard ship+eater migrated into the "common conduits"? Seems as if the ship+eater variant would be much higher on the list, otherwise. What is the full list of common conduits now? Is there an easy way to assign them some kind of provisional rating as well, and put them at the top of the list or something?

My first suggestion for a catalyst to analyze is the century eater -- I don't think that one has come up yet:

Code: Select all

x = 75, y = 61, rule = LifeHistory
2.A$A.A$.2A17$57.A.2A$57.2A.A2$55.5A$54.A2.C2.A$44.A9.2A3.A.A$42.A.A
15.2C$43.2A15$73.2A$73.2A4$61.A$60.A.A$61.2A9$49.2A$48.A.A$48.A$47.2A!

A tangential thought: how many ticks do you run the random soups before you start applying catalysts? It seems as if at least the first ten ticks or so would be kind of noisy, and wouldn't give very reliable information about catalysts' usefulness. When I was imagining my vaporware version of this project, I thought it would be good to run it on 1000-tick methuselahs (let's say) and start catalyzing at T=100 or so.

[Scorbie]

I've been paying attention to this thread without contributing, but now I have to say: this catalyst rating project is really awesome.

Thanks It's way still a work in progress and has subtle inconsistencies between search conditions. (And only today I found some quirks in my own tweak... Yep, the code is still very unstable.) I hope they get settled down after it gets mature. Also, credits to chris_c who analyzed the ptbsearch code and thankfully answered the flood of questions from me.

It takes care of a line of research I've been going on about for years now (and I see I'm not the only one) -- but I was never brave enough to tackle it. I was mostly interested in rating relatively small simple objects that might find a use in self-contructing circuitry. This is a lot more ambitious, and it's really nice to see those ratings as part of a larger survey.

Checked the link and I think your area of interest would be a pretty ambitious field on its own. My search currently only uses catalysts and mechanisms from users' recommendations. Your project would investigate all relatively small still lifes without any assumptions of the catalysis mechanism.
I would say the objective of this project is rather small and specific, which is to determine the most popular catalysts and write the 'ideal' scorbie.list file to use in ptbsearch. You can see that some parts of the search are specifically directed to that goal. (e.g. That was why I didn't mind putting common catalysts to the control group, as I was gonna include them anyway.) I think other searches could fit your more specific needs better. (Altering specific conditions from my search would be an option.)

I take it that the standard ship+eater migrated into the "common conduits"? Seems as if the ship+eater variant would be much higher on the list, otherwise. What is the full list of common conduits now?

Yep, you are right. I'll post the new 'common catalysts' after I get back home.

Is there an easy way to assign them some kind of provisional rating as well, and put them at the top of the list or something?

Originally I haven't thought about adding this feature for the reasons stated above about my goal. However, as the search goes on, I was also interested at how common the block / eater / eater2 etc. would be. I haven't thought of an easy way, but I'll try to add those after things become stable. (My guess is that it would be REALLY common. And keep in mind that these so-called frequencies are relative values, and they could be well over 1. I'll elaborate it later.)

My first suggestion for a catalyst to analyze is the century eater

That would be an interesting catalyst to add as I just became curious if that can do more than eating centuries. (Like the interesting pi_splitter catalyst that can do more than just splitting pis.)

A tangential thought: how many ticks do you run the random soups before you start applying catalysts?

Well, inside Paul Callahan's original ptblist.pl there was a default value of $gen0 = 18 gens So I have been using that value since the start of this project. I wonder if he set this default value because he did a similar search along these lines.
Speaking of the starting generation, let me clarify the conditions of the search.

• Soup size: 10x10
• Gens of Catalyst interaction: 18 ~ 50 (that 50 seems a bit early, on second thoughts.)
• Filtering of catalysts: the catalyst has to survive for 10 gens after it is restored.
• Filtering duplicates: The actual implementation would be pretty boring, so I'll just give you the idea.
  i) It filters out trivial duplicates. e.g. the boat catalysis of MikeP's honeyfarm catalyst or the snake catalysis of catalysts that have a tail and so on.
  ii) It tries to filter out non-obvious duplicates, like some BTS catalyses where a block would suffice.
  I posted working examples at the first post.
  I'm currently not sure if it's better to add ii) or not. This makes a big difference on some catalysts, e.g. the twit.
• Calculating frequencies: (I told you I would get back on this.) Currently I just count the number of catalyst reactions and divide it to the number of soups. So that would mean "The expected number of reactions with the above conditions per soup," and if there were more reactions than the number of soups, then the "frequency" would be >1.

It seems as if at least the first ten ticks or so would be kind of noisy, and wouldn't give very reliable information about catalysts' usefulness. When I was imagining my vaporware version of this project, I thought it would be good to run it on 1000-tick methuselahs (let's say) and start catalyzing at T=100 or so.

While I can't agree with you more with the first statement, the ideal value of the catalysing start time would differ by the goal of the search. As I stated before, my personal goal of this search was find catalysts common in ptbsearch runs, specifically to find conduits or G->X s or something similar. If the searches start from T=100, then (one, it would take more time, and two,) most of the soups would have evolved into common methuselahs such as Herschel and pis, so the search would have a positive bias towards them. And in conduit searching, one would rather not perturb further if these objects come up, as it's already a(n almost) working conduit.

[dvgrn]

Well, inside Paul Callahan's original ptblist.pl there was a default value of $gen0 = 18 gens So I have been using that value since the start of this project...
As I stated before, my personal goal of this search was find catalysts common in ptbsearch runs, specifically to find conduits or G->X s or something similar. If the searches start from T=100, then (one, it would take more time, and two,) most of the soups would have evolved into common methuselahs such as Herschel and pis, so the search would have a positive bias towards them. And in conduit searching, one would rather not perturb further if these objects come up, as it's already a(n almost) working conduit.

Interesting! I think 18 ticks is long enough that small soups will have settled down into behavior that's statistically similar to T=100, though not necessarily indistinguishable.

In a really large soup the patches of activity are probably measurably denser at T=18. But 10x10 soups' density no doubt stabilize a lot faster. I wonder how good one could get at the game of "guess how many ticks since the beginning of the universe?" for small soups, if you only had a standard-sized sample? If you could see the whole pattern and knew the size of the soup, you could get an obvious lower bound in some cases... Anyway, I suppose that's another line of investigation for another time.

I tend to think of a long-running methuselah as fairly unbiased -- what you see at the edges of the reaction envelope is pretty close to what you'll get at the catalyzable edges of a ptbsearch search. It would be pretty easy to generate a huge pile of long-running methuselahs by running a modified apgsearch for a while and reporting just the high-population soups.

As a random experiment, I tried watching an R-pentomino and making a note of everything recognizable that showed up at an edge:

Code: Select all

R H HF B R B TL Pi TL LOM TL TL LOM HF

Really there aren't all that many clean common signal outputs. The most common edge reactions are things that we don't really have very many good catalysts for yet. And most of the time the edge reactions are uncommon, messy things that we don't have names for, anyway. So I'm not sure that there would really be much of a problem with "bias" -- it would be kind of nice to be biased toward the things that are statistically most likely to come up in real signal circuitry.

That said, though, I'm probably trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. It just seems as if 10x10 random soups at T=18+ are going to provide relatively few good sites to test catalysts against, especially starting at 50% density. You can often get a lot of overpopulation death right away, and then what's left is too sparse to recover. I just ran a few 50% soups in Golly until this one came up:

Code: Select all

x = 10, y = 10, rule = LifeHistory
A.A3.A2.A$2A2.3A2.A$4.A.3A$3A2.5A$A.2A2.2A$2A5.2A$2.3A.A$.A3.A$2A2.2A
.A.A$.A2.2A.A.A!

In this example there's only one small backside-of-a-preblinker spark on the right that could maybe be catalyzed by something, after T=18. I would think you could get a thousand small soups' worth of good reaction sites from just a single-digit number of long-running methuselahs, randomly chosen.

Again, I have no evidence that there's really any good reason to use methuselahs instead of 10x10 soups -- it just seems like an interesting experiment. Maybe if the statistics do come out significantly different on a methuselah run, the differences would say something about which reaction sites are more "natural".

[Scorbie]

It's a little late here, so I would briefly post the catalysts used in the control group:
Block
Eater 1, 2, 3
Ship+Eater
hook with tail
long hook with tail
table on big pedestal
boat
tub
@dvgrn you have a point. I am currently not sure which is the ideal tine of interaction. I don't think I can send a thorough reply right now but I'll think about it more when I get more time. In the meanwhile, what do you think is the appropriate time interval of interaction? From gen 100 to ???

[dvgrn]

@dvgrn you have a point. I am currently not sure which is the ideal tine of interaction. I don't think I can send a thorough reply right now but I'll think about it more when I get more time. In the meanwhile, what do you think is the appropriate time interval of interaction? From gen 100 to ???

That seems more or less arbitrary -- reactions aren't going to get any less "natural" at T=10000 than at T=1000, but most likely the soup explosion will be unmanageably large by that time. Reactions probably aren't significantly more natural at T=10000 than at T=1000, either.

So if you put together an apgsearch-like soup generator that keeps testing soups and returns the first one that lasts for more than (say) 250 ticks, then maybe you could just test T=100 through T=200. If you want to run fewer soups, just filter out only 1200-tick methuselahs and test everything from T=100 through T=1100.

[simeks]

I would say the objective of this project is rather small and specific, which is to determine the most popular catalysts and write the 'ideal' scorbie.list file to use in ptbsearch.

I've been following this thread too, and found it very interesting, but now that you explain how you plan to use the results it seems even more important!

Here are a few catalysts that might be interesting, mostly from my searches for H catalysts.
The R catalyst works like a block most of the time, but in some cases it does something a block can't do.

I've been trying to keep up with what's been tested, but if any of these have already been suggested, I apologize.

Code: Select all

x = 84, y = 259, rule = LifeHistory
74.2C$74.C6.2C$76.C5.C$72.4C.C.3C$72.C2.C.C.C$76.C3$5.2C$4.C.3C$4.C4.
C$.2C.C.2C.C$.2C.C.C.C$5.C6$A63.A$A.A61.A.A$3A61.3A$2.A63.A19$10.2C$
10.C3.2C$12.C2.C$11.4C2$11.2C$10.C2.C$11.2C.C.2C$14.C.2C$14.C$A11.C.C
$A.A9.2C$3A$2.A7$79.2C$79.C$80.C$77.4C2.C$77.C3.3C$80.C$80.2C9$13.2C$
14.C$14.C.2C$13.2C2.C$12.C2.C$13.2C2$A12.2C49.A$A.A10.C.C48.A.A$3A11.
C49.3A$2.A63.A24$15.C$14.C.C$15.2C2$15.2C$A13.C.C$A.A12.C$3A$2.A29$A
63.A$A.A61.A.A$3A11.C49.3A$2.A9.3C51.A$11.C$12.C.3C$8.C.C.2C3.C$8.2C.
C3.2C$11.C.2C$11.2C.C2$77.C$76.C.C$75.C.C$73.3C.C.C$72.C5.2C$72.2C16$
A$A.A$3A$2.A10.2C$11.C2.C$11.3C2$11.3C$11.C2.C$13.2C14$63.C.C$58.2C2.
C.2C$58.C3.C$22.C36.3C.3C$20.3C38.C.C2.C$19.C45.2C$20.C$19.2C$18.C$A
17.5C$A.A19.C42.A$3A15.2C45.2A$2.A16.C44.2A$19.C.C$20.2C22$62.2C.2C$
63.C.C2.2C.C$62.C3.2C2.2C$62.C.2C2.C$63.C.C.C.2C.C$A65.2C.C.2C$A.A$3A
$2.A61.3A5$17.2C$14.2C2.C$13.C.3C$13.C4.3C$14.3C4.C$16.C.3C$16.C.C$
17.C!

[Scorbie]

So if you put together an apgsearch-like soup generator that keeps testing soups and returns the first one that lasts for more than (say) 250 ticks, then maybe you could just test T=100 through T=200. If you want to run fewer soups, just filter out only 1200-tick methuselahs and test everything from T=100 through T=1100.

Still haven't thought much about the idea, but I'll try that next time and see how it goes.

I've been following this thread too, and found it very interesting, but now that you explain how you plan to use the results it seems even more important!

Thanks

I've been trying to keep up with what's been tested, but if any of these have already been suggested, I apologize.

Not at all. I've recently started to attach the latest results at the first post. Hope that helps. I'll add them to the next run when I solve the problem with the code and things get a little more stable.
In the meanwhile, name nominations are appreciated for simeks' new catalysts. (By the way, the last one is known from Dean's drifter search, and is called the blinker eater, if I remember correctly.)

[Scorbie]

Is there an easy way to assign them some kind of provisional rating as well, and put them at the top of the list or something?

Okay. I'm trying to change the search method so that every catalyst is taken into account. I thought of this:

• Make a list of catalysts in ascending order of difficulty of slow-salvo construction.
  (And if both catalyst seems practically impossible, by clearence.)
• Traverse the list. Run ptbsearch in each element and only output catalyses not found in catalysts visited before.

So the output would contain catalysts in the smallest (or slow-salvo efficient form.)
I assumed the order would be something like this. I'd like to hear (mostly from slow-salvo experts) if the order should be something else or perhaps a rough guideline/estimate for slow-salvo difficulty.
Some catalysts may have unrecognizable names. I'll explain the new names some time after. I guess it doesn't hurt to ignore them for a while.

Code: Select all

#Spartan Catalysts
block
block_supplement
two_blocks
transp_block
transp_hive
transp_loaf
boat
transp_boat
ship
transp_ship
tub
transp_tub
transp_pond
mirrored_boat
eater
block_eater
boat_eater
ship_eater

#Semispartan Catalysts
hook_with_tail
long_hook_with_tail
twit
hive_with_tail
hive-tail-eater#1
hive-tail-eater#2
boat_with_tail
table
moose_antlers
moose_antlers-1
bookend
dead_spark_coil
reflector_hook
dual_eater
long_dock
beehive_with_long_leg
long_hook
long_hook_and_block
eater_on_dock
hurricane
table_siamese_carrier_on_boat
century_eater
h_to_teardrop

#Slightly Contstructible Catalysts?
eater2
bookend_on_pedestal
eater_with_pedestal
table_on_long_pedestal
eater_hook_with_tail
gourmet
eater_table
eater_tub_with_hook
kazyan
mikep
hive_siamese_table_on_boat
hive_siamese_table_on_eater
ship_eater_variant
sokwe
eater3
BTS
edgy_b_to_g

#Absolutely Nonspartan Catalysts
eater_with_bookend
eater_inductor_hook_with_tail
table_table
table_table+1
regenerative_loop
modified_long_hook_and_block
simeks
hook_with_long_leg_on_sth
pierce
blinker_eater
pi_splitter
drifter
eater_misc
eater4

@dvgrn Okay, My thoughts settled about the 100-gen start-time thing. (This doesn't necessarily mean 100+ start time no no. Please read on.) For the sake of clarity, I would take the Herschel as an instance of a common methuselah.
In a ptbsearch run, I would not want catalysts to work "exclusively" with the "clean" Herschel. Even if they are more common in natural conditions. (e.g. the dead spark coil, roughly.) I would rather prefer catalysts that work in some variety of contexts.
We already have a better utility for investigating those "specific" catalysts, namely Bellman. Also, it would be a waste to add a catalyst to ptbsearch if that catalyst could only work with the clean Herschel, as it does nothing with reactions that does not produce it. We can always add them after we filter out reactions that does output a herschel, but not in a ptbsearch run in the beginning.
I got your point about the R-pentomino. And yes, that does make sense, but most of the TL, HF, etc are not very clean. They mostly have nearby junk that alters its progression. I think these "altered" methuselahs are way more common than clean methuselahs in ptbsearch.
I don't have a problem with catalysts that can deal with a variety of "damaged" methuselahs. I am concerned that the larger start_time might result in more clean herschels, and that might lead to increase in catalysts like the dead spark coil which shadows other catalysts that work in some variety of contexts. (EDIT: Irk, this seems contradictory to what I said in the beginning! Well I'm still a little skeptical about that 100-gen-start-time thing, but I think if that does not produce a lot of free clean herschels I think it's okay. I think that could be done if I set the end_time to 250 gens.)

I may be worrying about something that doesn't happen, but at least this is precisely what I am concerned about.

And on a seperate note, I'm trying to lower the density to about 0.3 or so. Hope that gives more areas to react.

[praosylen]

What about this one ("rock eater 2"):

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
8bob2o$8b2obo$6b2o$5bo3b2o$5b4ob3o$13bo$7b2ob3o$2b3o2b2obo$bo3bo$o3b2o
$bo!

[Extrementhusiast]

What about this one ("rock eater 2"):

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
8bob2o$8b2obo$6b2o$5bo3b2o$5b4ob3o$13bo$7b2ob3o$2b3o2b2obo$bo3bo$o3b2o
$bo!

...which I posted in the Herschel Conduits thread. Make sure you give attribution!

[praosylen]

What about this one ("rock eater 2"):

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
8bob2o$8b2obo$6b2o$5bo3b2o$5b4ob3o$13bo$7b2ob3o$2b3o2b2obo$bo3bo$o3b2o
$bo!

...which I posted in the Herschel Conduits thread. Make sure you give attribution!

I didn't know that. I only saw the variant with the eater 1.

Edit: Another possibility:

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 11, rule = LifeHistory
A$A$.A.A$.3A3.2A$5.C2.A$5.3A$2.C$2.4A$5.A$4.A$4.2A!

Edit 2: 5 more that I found by looking at eater stamp collections:

Code: Select all

x = 54, y = 30, rule = LifeHistory
10.A$8.A40.2A$8.A19.2A18.A.A$6.2A20.A.A11.2A4.A$13.2A15.A11.2A2.C2A$
8.2C.C2.A8.3A4.A.2A11.C3.2A$7.C.C.3A10.2A.2C.A.A12.CA2C2.A$2.2A3.C.C
18.C.A.A.A14.C2A$2.A2.C.A.3A16.C.A2.2A10.3CA$3.4A.A3.A13.A.A.A9.2A3.C
3.5A$8.A2.2A11.3A.2A10.A2.C.C.2A4.A$5.A.A15.A17.3A.C.A2.A$5.2A16.2A
21.A2.2A$43.3A$43.A$4.2A.A$4.A.2A2$5.5A15.A$2A2.A4.C14.A.A$A2.A2.C15.
A2.A2.A$.A.A.AC15.2A.A.2A$2A.A4.3A14.A3.2A$3.A3.A9.A4.2C.C.2A2.A$3.2A
2.A.A8.2A2.2C.C2.A.A$8.A11.A5.CA2.2A$8.3A16.A.A$9.A2.A14.A.A$12.A15.A
$11.A!

I'm not sure if the last one is equivalent to the eater-bridge-snake or not. There may be other catalyses, too. The fourth one has simpler catalyses, too, akin to eater 3. The first and third are mostly equivalent to the normal eater, but have a couple other reactions and get out of the way for longer. The second one may or may not be equivalent to an eater 5.

[Scorbie]

Will add them all. Let's see if any of them have unique things.
Incidentally, there are cousins to your last catalyst (which I think have the same effect.)

Code: Select all

x = 90, y = 16, rule = LifeHistory
6.A3.2A17.A3.2A17.A3.2A18.A3.2A$7.2A.2A18.2A.2A18.2A.2A19.2A.2A$5.A.A
20.A.A20.A.A21.A.A$6.A22.A22.A23.A$2A2.3A4.2A.A2.A5.2A2.3A4.2A.2A7.2A
2.3A4.2A.A9.2A2.3A4.2A.A2.A$2A9.2A.4A5.2A9.2A.A8.2A9.2A.3A7.2A9.2A.4A
$39.A23.A$11.5A18.5A.A16.5A2.A16.5A$10.A5.A16.A5.A16.A5.3A15.A5.A.2A$
11.2A2.2A14.3A.A.A19.2A2.A19.2A2.2A.A$6.2A.A.A18.A3.2A.2A13.2A.A.A.A
2.A16.A.A.A2.A2.A$6.A.2A2.A18.2A3.A15.A.2A.A.2A.A15.A.A2.3A2.2A$11.2A
20.2A.A21.A2.A16.A2.2A$33.A.A23.2A16.2A4.3A$83.A2.A$85.2A!

[Scorbie]

Okay. Here's how this is going. I changed the search condition by making the catalysts react at gens 100~200. However, I ran a 1000 soup run this night (for about 4 hrs) and it's progress is less than 10%. In short: The search is slow. This gives me two choices:

1) Narrowing the search space.
@dvgrn What would you think is a wise judgement? Changing the react gens to around 100~130 or Running about 100 soups, or some compromise in between?

2) Asking for volunteers.
I rewrote the censusing throwaway-script in python so the only dependency would be Python 2 and Perl. (+GCC if one's on windows, for now) I'm willing to convert the Perl script in Python if one wishes.
Although my computer is slow, I don't think it would be more than a magnitude slower than yours. Which means, it will take some time (about a day?) in your computer too, if the search space is not narrowed.
Running only the census with the given script is pretty easy. Just Python cat.py with a lot of patience.
I don't think the search will crash, but the new python script dislikes temporary intermediate files. You would have to delete any intermediate results if you halt a running search.
With all that taken into consideration, if you would like to volunteer in the search, feel free to let me know. Thanks in advance.

Either option would be pretty okay, if successful. Thanks for your attention.

[dvgrn]

@dvgrn What would you think is a wise judgement? Changing the react gens to around 100~130 or Running about 100 soups, or some compromise in between?

Well, my first piece of advice is that I don't really know what I'm talking about, so you shouldn't rely on my advice too much.

If you're running soups that are guaranteed to have activity at T=100..200, then it seems likely that the script is just finding a lot more active sites than it used to, on average (?). That seems like a good thing, until it gets boring -- so it seems as if you could safely dial back either the number of soups or the 100..1xx range, until you ended up with the search time that you want.

Maybe it would work to refactor slightly so that each new soup adds its statistics to any previous results? Then you can just keep running for some reasonable number of hours, instead of a specific number of soups.

I guess the acid test of all this is: if you run for some number of hours and get a relative ranking for the catalysts under test -- and then you run twice as long, and you find that the relative ranking doesn't change -- then the statistics probably mean something, and that much searching is long enough.[/quote]