Nice find! HOW DID YOU FIND IT?Macbi wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 7:15 am16x16 soup:calcyman wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 6:59 am19x17 parent:dvgrn wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 5:59 amReally the lower bound would be much higher than that, because if one soup exists then there are probably gajillions of variants of it. Here's a 20x18 sample that can probably be packed into 16x16 with some effort:
Code: Select all
x = 20, y = 18, rule = B3/S23 8bo$8b4o$8bo3bo2$10b3o7$15b2o$bo13b2o$obo5bo$6b2ob2o$3o2bo3b2o7b2o$6b 2ob2o7b2o$6b4o!
Code: Select all
x = 19, y = 17, rule = B3/S23 7b3o$10b3o$10b3o$11bo7$15b2o$15b2o$3o6bo$b2o3b2obo8bo$2o5bobo8bo$5b3ob o6bobo$8b2o6bobo!
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23 o2bob2o$o3b2ob2o2bob2o$bo2bo4bo3bobo$10b4o$2b2obo3bobobo$o4b4o3bob2o$ 4b2o2b3o2bo$b2o2bo2bo6bo$4b2o2b2o3bobo$3o2b2o2b2o4bo$ob2ob2o2b2obo$o2b obo4b2obo$3ob2ob2o4b3o$o2bob2o2bo3bobo$3o4bo3b2ob2o$b2obo2b4obo2bo!
Soup search results
Re: Soup search results
Re: Soup search results
16x17 parent following a different line of approach:calcyman wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 6:59 am19x17 parent:
Code: Select all
x = 19, y = 17, rule = B3/S23 7b3o$10b3o$10b3o$11bo7$15b2o$15b2o$3o6bo$b2o3b2obo8bo$2o5bobo8bo$5b3ob o6bobo$8b2o6bobo!
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
6b2ob3o$10bo$5bo2b2o$5b2o2bo$6b2o$4bobo$5bo4$11b2o$o10b2o$o$o$b2o11b2o
$b3o10b2o$b2o!
Code: Select all
x = 155, y = 179, rule = LifeHistory
31.A$30.A.A$30.2A3$34.B$27.A5.2B$26.A.A2B.3B7.2A$26.B2A6B7.2A$26.8B$
25.D7B$25.2DAD4B$25.DA.ADB$27.2AB$27.3D$50.2A74.3D$50.2A71.A3BDA$122.
A.A2BA.AD$47.2A74.2A2BD2AD$47.A.A73.5BDBD$47.A75.6B$32.2A90.4B$32.2A
89.5B$20.3D99.4B$17.A3BDA98.4B$16.A.A2BA.AD95.4B$17.2A2BD2AD94.4B$17.
5BDBD93.4B$17.6B94.4B$18.4B94.4B$17.5B93.4B$16.4B94.4B$15.4B94.4B$29.
2A81.4B$29.2A80.4B$110.4B$109.4B$108.4B$107.4B$106.4B$17.2A86.4B$17.
2A85.4B$103.4B$102.4B$101.3AB$101.2BA$.2A99.A$A.A$2.A5$123.3B$122.6B$
122.4B3D3.A$118.2B.6BD2B.ABA$117.10BD2BABAB$116.6B2A3BD2B2A2B$115.6BA
2BA3BDBDB$114.4B2.2BABA4B$113.4B4.2BA5B23.AB$112.4B5.6B24.BABA$111.4B
9.B25.2B2A$23.ABA84.4B35.4B$23.B2AB82.4B35.4B$24.A3B80.4B35.4B$25.4B
78.4B35.4B$26.4B76.4B35.4B$27.4B74.4B35.4B$28.4B72.4B35.4B$29.4B70.4B
35.4B$30.4B68.4B35.4B$31.4B66.A3B35.4B$32.4B64.B2AB35.4B$33.4B.2B60.A
BA35.4B$34.6B97.4B$34.8B94.4B$34.8B4.B88.4B$35.8B2.2B87.4B$35.12B86.
4B$34.2B2A3BA5B85.4B$34.BABA2BABA3B84.5B$35.ABD2B2A4B83.5B$34.2AB4D5B
83.4B$36.BD3BD3B81.3D4B$36.9B80.B2A6B$18.2B16.3B3D4B79.B.A2B2A2B$18.A
BA15.9B79.3AD2BABAB$18.B2AB15.6B59.BA20.A3BDBDAB$19.A3B15.4B59.ABAB
21.B3.2B$20.4B78.2A2B$21.4B78.4B$22.6B2.2B.A70.4B$23.8B3A10.2A59.4B$
24.6BA7B6.2A60.4B$25.5B2A3D4B68.4B$24.9BD6B68.4B$24.9BD2BD3B7.2A60.4B
$26.5B2AD2BD3B7.2A61.4B$26.4BABABDBD3B71.4B$28.3BA7B73.4B$29.9B75.4B$
29.9B76.4B$28.6B2.B78.4B$27.4B85.4B$117.4B$118.4B$119.4B$120.4B$121.
4B$122.4B$123.4B$124.4B$125.3B$121.2A2.B3D$121.A4B.2A$122.3A2BA2BD$
123.BAB.D3A$124.B3.D.A12$107.AB$107.B2A$107.2A2B$108.4B$109.4B$110.4B
$32.A78.4B$31.A.A78.4B$31.2A80.4B$114.4B$115.4B$35.B80.6B2.2B.A$28.A
5.2B81.8B3A$27.A.A2B.3B7.2A73.6BA7B$27.B2A6B7.2A74.5B2A3D4B$27.8B83.
9BD6B$26.D7B84.9BD2BD3B$26.2DAD4B86.5B2AD2BD3B$26.DA.ADB88.4BABABDBD
3B$28.2AB91.3BA7B$7.2B19.3D92.9B$7.ABA41.2A71.8B$7.B2AB40.2A73.2B2.B$
8.A3B$9.4B35.2A$10.4B34.A.A$11.6B2.2B.A25.A$12.8B3A10.2A$13.6BA7B6.2A
$14.5B2A3D4B$13.9BD6B$13.9BD2BD3B$15.5B2AD2BD3B$15.4BABABDBD3B$17.3BA
7B$18.9B$18.9B$17.6B2.B$16.4B$30.2A$30.2A6$18.2A$18.2A!
 testitemqlstudop
 Posts: 1367
 Joined: July 21st, 2016, 11:45 am
 Location: in catagolue
 Contact:
Re: Soup search results
next april fools troll wenMacbi wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 7:15 am16x16 soup:Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23 o2bob2o$o3b2ob2o2bob2o$bo2bo4bo3bobo$10b4o$2b2obo3bobobo$o4b4o3bob2o$ 4b2o2b3o2bo$b2o2bo2bo6bo$4b2o2b2o3bobo$3o2b2o2b2o4bo$ob2ob2o2b2obo$o2b obo4b2obo$3ob2ob2o4b3o$o2bob2o2bo3bobo$3o4bo3b2ob2o$b2obo2b4obo2bo!
Re: Soup search results
Well at least Macbi has still done something nontrivial here, namely finding a IDKtick predecessor of a 2EC in a 16by16 box.testitemqlstudop wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 7:53 amnext april fools troll wenMacbi wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 7:15 am16x16 soup:Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23 o2bob2o$o3b2ob2o2bob2o$bo2bo4bo3bobo$10b4o$2b2obo3bobobo$o4b4o3bob2o$ 4b2o2b3o2bo$b2o2bo2bo6bo$4b2o2b2o3bobo$3o2b2o2b2o4bo$ob2ob2o2b2obo$o2b obo4b2obo$3ob2ob2o4b3o$o2bob2o2bo3bobo$3o4bo3b2ob2o$b2obo2b4obo2bo!
Re: Soup search results
Okay, so can someone check my math? I think this means that the absolute lower bound on 2EC probability is one chance in 2^256/8 = 10^76, more or less.
It seems reasonable take out a dozen or more orders of magnitude from that  if a working soup is this easy to find, there should easily be trillions of variants that would also produce a 2EC. So 10^64 is still fairly conservative.
The first witch's first two lines in Macbeth add up 64 characters  not counting all the scenesetting:
Any properly equipped Shakespearetyping monkey is going to be working on a typewriter with at least 30 keys, so typing just the first dozen words correctly would happen one time in 30^64 = 10^94plus, or somewhere north of 10^111 if said monkey is supposed to produce proper capitalization as well as punctuation.ACT I
SCENE I. A desert place.
Thunder and lightning. Enter three Witches
First Witch
When shall we three meet again
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
So we'd need an awful lot of monkeys to get into reasonable balance with 2EC odds. Recruiting all the bacteria on earth (in the 10^30 range) to take over the monkey business and simultaneously type ALLCAPS SHAKESPEARE ... won't quite do it, even if we're satisfied with just those first two lines.
On the other hand, we're only creeping up on having apgsearched 100 trillion soups so far, 10^14, in C1 and G1 combined, so we'd have to have a separate computer for every individual atom in the Earth running Catagolue for a couple of years (at current speeds), before Macbi's specific soup or one of its trillion cousins would be particularly likely to show up.
Alternate Calculation
Hunting's line of investigation seems like a good one: given that we see pairs of switch engines show up in soups already, how long before the right pair shows up? Here it might be better to try to calculate an upper bound to go with the lower bound above. Looks like we've seen something like 100 distinct pairs of switch engines show up and survive in asymmetric 16x16 soups. (There are more like 360 soups producing something weird that Catagolue reports as a nonGPSE nonBLSE, but a lot of them are duplicates arising from small seeds, and quite a few of them are actually singleton GPSE or BLSE soups with an intermediate stage that consists of a single active glider and a bunch of stable junk.)
That's about oneinatrillion odds of getting any old pair of switch engines, but that includes switch engines that appear several hundred ticks apart, and/or with long distances separating them. We need one particular combination with exactly the right timing, out of say 10,000 possible relative locations and 1000 ticks' worth of relative timings.
That puts 2EC soup odds at somewhere around one in 10^16, ten million trillion. That's definitely a lot better than onein10^64 odds, but still it looks like we're allowed to be really, really surprised (and maybe even a little suspicious) if a 2EC soup shows up in Catagolue tomorrow. The above doesn't even bother to factor in the odds of the right junk showing up behind the switch engines, so it's a painfully optimistic upper bound.
... Or if anyone can point to where I've bent the rules of ballpark estimation all out of shape, please feel free to correct me.
Re: Soup search results
The problem with the comparison to "monkeys on typewriters" is that in a language, the probability of the next character is dependent on the previous characters. Individual characters are not independent events. For example, in English, "bv" less common than "ng", "qxr" is much less common than "the", etc.
Much more interesting than random gibberish is to feed in to a process a large amount of text, analyze the combinations, then generate new text based on that stats just generated. Your result will resemble the source material. (Try entering chemical papers, for example, many of those resemble gibberish to start.)
I wrote a simple FORTRAN program to do that sort of thing in the mid70s, after reading an article claiming it couldn't be done because there wasn't enough data storage to contain the necessary tables. The author assumed multidimensional arrays (27x27x...), while I implemented the data structure as a 27way tree. Easy to go to about 8 letters deep that way, and avoid wasting lots of space on combinations that never happen. The hardest part was actually having to type in all my source text...
Much more interesting than random gibberish is to feed in to a process a large amount of text, analyze the combinations, then generate new text based on that stats just generated. Your result will resemble the source material. (Try entering chemical papers, for example, many of those resemble gibberish to start.)
I wrote a simple FORTRAN program to do that sort of thing in the mid70s, after reading an article claiming it couldn't be done because there wasn't enough data storage to contain the necessary tables. The author assumed multidimensional arrays (27x27x...), while I implemented the data structure as a 27way tree. Easy to go to about 8 letters deep that way, and avoid wasting lots of space on combinations that never happen. The hardest part was actually having to type in all my source text...
Re: Soup search results
I think I ran into this first in the book version of a Computer Recreations article. June 1989 was the original Dewdney article on Markov chains. Maybe Hofstadter mentioned it in one of his Metamagical Themas columns, too, like the ones about nonsense, I don't remember for sure.
Now we have neural networks doing the next generation of the same thing  have you seen the relevant Sandbox thread? If not, my apologies for inflicting it on a wider audience.
I suppose Markovchain monkeys would be a good modernization of the monkeysontypewriters meme. We could give the monkeys virtual keyboards where the keys change size according to the last several letters typed. Random keyboard mashing would suddenly be a lot more likely to produce snippets of Shakespeare ... but full scenes, even short ones, are still going to be a lot farther out of reach than a 2engine Cordership.
Re: Soup search results
Natural cisCoe's p8 on table:
Haul: https://catagolue.appspot.com/haul/b3s2 ... 819004caf2 (Rob Liston, 20200608)
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
bobooboobobbooob$
oobbboboobbobbbo$
ooobobbbobbbbbbo$
ooboobboooboooob$
obobboobbbobobbb$
bbobbbobbbooboob$
bbboooooooobboob$
bbobooooboooobbo$
ooooobbboooooobo$
obboooboooobobbb$
bbboooobooobobbb$
obbooobbobooboob$
ooboboobbobooboo$
obobbbbbobooooob$
ooobbooobbboobbo$
boboobobbobooboo!
Re: Soup search results
Rob Liston found an infinitegrowth soup which takes 10 514 926 generations to settle down into regular growth:
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
2o3bob4o2b2o$o3b2o5bo$o3bo2bo4b2obo$bo4bob2o2bobo$3b2ob2o3b4o$o3bo3bob
2ob2o$2b2ob2obob4obo$b10ob2o$2bo3b2o4bob2o$2o3b2o2b3ob2o$4obobo6b2o$ob
3o5bo2b2o$2bobobobo2b2ob2o$2bob2ob2o6bo$2b3obob5o2bo$bo3b2obo2bo3bo!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the monoclinic!
Re: Soup search results
Awesome! I've been hoping something like this would show up in an asymmetrical soup.
It's easy to synthesize, too. At worst, at T=406 it's basically just an Rpentomino plus some junk:
Code: Select all
x = 51, y = 58, rule = B3/S23
35b2o$26b2o7bobo$26bobo7b2o$27bo10b2o$31b2o5bobo$31bobo5b2o$32b2o$34b
2o$34bobo$35b2o3$24b2o$24b2o2$28b2o$28b2o$2o$2o4$8b3o$35b2o$34bo2bo$
34bo2bo$35b2o12bo$48bobo$49bo3$11b2o23b2o$11b2o3b2o17bo2bo$16b2o18b2o
15$36b2o$35b2o$36bo7$15b3o!
 gameoflifemaniac
 Posts: 1224
 Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 11:17 am
 Location: There too
Re: Soup search results
Wow, natural crystals! Also, the puffer is p5376, if my calculations were correct.calcyman wrote: ↑June 17th, 2020, 12:38 pmRob Liston found an infinitegrowth soup which takes 10 514 926 generations to settle down into regular growth:
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23 2o3bob4o2b2o$o3b2o5bo$o3bo2bo4b2obo$bo4bob2o2bobo$3b2ob2o3b4o$o3bo3bob 2ob2o$2b2ob2obob4obo$b10ob2o$2bo3b2o4bob2o$2o3b2o2b3ob2o$4obobo6b2o$ob 3o5bo2b2o$2bobobobo2b2ob2o$2bob2ob2o6bo$2b3obob5o2bo$bo3b2obo2bo3bo!
I was so socially awkward in the past and it will haunt me for the rest of my life.
Code: Select all
b4o25bo$o29bo$b3o3b3o2bob2o2bob2o2bo3bobo$4bobo3bob2o2bob2o2bobo3bobo$
4bobo3bobo5bo5bo3bobo$o3bobo3bobo5bo6b4o$b3o3b3o2bo5bo9bobo$24b4o!
Re: Soup search results
Second natural occurrence of Rob's p16. This time it forms at generation ~ 2000:
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
o2bob5o4bo$4o2b2ob4o$bo5bob2o2b3o$o7bobo4bo$3b4obo4bo$o2b3o3b7o$3obobo
bo2b2o$b4o2b2obo$2obobob2o2bo3bo$b2obob3ob6o$ob3o5b2o2b2o$obobobo2b4ob
o$2b2ob3ob2ob3o$3b3o5b4o$o3b2ob3obobo$2ob6obob2obo!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the monoclinic!
 A for awesome
 Posts: 2288
 Joined: September 13th, 2014, 5:36 pm
 Location: Pembina University, Home of the Gliders
 Contact:
Re: Soup search results
The correct soup:
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
bbobboboboobboob$
oboboobobbooooob$
obbboobbobobbbbo$
obobbbbbbbbbbbob$
obbobbboooboooob$
oooobbbobboboobb$
obbooobbooboboob$
bobobbbbbboooooo$
bbooooobooobobob$
bbbbbobboobbboob$
boboooobobbbbooo$
bbobobbbbooobbob$
oobbooobbboboboo$
boobobbobbooboob$
oboooooobobbbobo$
boobobobbooboboo!
praosylen#5847 (Discord)
x₁=ηx
V*_η=c²√(Λη)
K=(Λu²)/2
Pₐ=1−1/(∫^∞_t₀(p(t)ˡ⁽ᵗ⁾)dt)
$$x_1=\eta x$$
$$V^*_\eta=c^2\sqrt{\Lambda\eta}$$
$$K=\frac{\Lambda u^2}2$$
$$P_a=1\frac1{\int^\infty_{t_0}p(t)^{l(t)}dt}$$
x₁=ηx
V*_η=c²√(Λη)
K=(Λu²)/2
Pₐ=1−1/(∫^∞_t₀(p(t)ˡ⁽ᵗ⁾)dt)
$$x_1=\eta x$$
$$V^*_\eta=c^2\sqrt{\Lambda\eta}$$
$$K=\frac{\Lambda u^2}2$$
$$P_a=1\frac1{\int^\infty_{t_0}p(t)^{l(t)}dt}$$
 Goldtiger997
 Posts: 636
 Joined: June 21st, 2016, 8:00 am
Re: Soup search results
Rob's p16 in 15 gliders based off that soup:
Code: Select all
x = 83, y = 85, rule = B3/S23
81bo$80bo$bobo76b3o$2b2o$2bo7$44bo$43bo$43b3o18$48b2o$48bobo$49bo4$28b
o$29bo$27b3o7$41b3o14bo$25b2o16bo13b2o$24bobo15bo14bobo$26bo$11b2o21b
2o$10bobo20bobo18b2o$12bo22bo17b2o$55bo11$11b2o$10bobo$12bo2$74bo$73b
2o$73bobo12$b2o$obo$2bo!
Re: Soup search results
Final population 6768, found by Rob Liston on 20200720 (haul unavailable):
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
ooooobbbbooboobo$
oooobbbbbbbobbob$
bobboobbooooobbo$
bobbooobbobbooob$
obooobbbooboobob$
obboobbboboobobb$
bboooboboobbbbob$
boobbbobobbbobbo$
oobbbbobbobbobbb$
ooobbooobbobobbb$
obbbobbooooobbob$
bobobbboboobbboo$
bbbooobbbbobbbbb$
boboooboobooboob$
bbobooobbbbobbbo$
bbooobbbobbbobbo!
Re: Soup search results
Looking at things like these, I'm still surprised that Catagolue hasn't turned up a selfsustaining active junkmaking reaction yet  basically a new kind of switch engine, except maybe orthogonal or even oblique, and no doubt higher period.
I hereby predict that one of those will show up at some point, and everyone will be very surprised.
Re: Soup search results
There are three of these in b38s23 (one orthogonal, one diagonal, and one oblique).dvgrn wrote: ↑August 6th, 2020, 1:00 pmLooking at things like these, I'm still surprised that Catagolue hasn't turned up a selfsustaining active junkmaking reaction yet  basically a new kind of switch engine, except maybe orthogonal or even oblique, and no doubt higher period.
I hereby predict that one of those will show up at some point, and everyone will be very surprised.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the monoclinic!
 goldenratio
 Posts: 240
 Joined: July 26th, 2020, 10:39 pm
Re: Soup search results
Fifth natural nonstandard nonflotilla spaceship  a MWSS and HWSS pulling a block:
https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xq ... crf7/b3s23
Found by rliston on 20200805.
https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xq ... crf7/b3s23
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
ooboboobobbooobb$
boobbboooobbbbbb$
bbobooobbbbooobo$
obboooobbbbobbob$
oboobobboooobbob$
bbbbbbobbobobbbb$
oobobobbobboobbo$
bbbbboooobbobobb$
bbboobobbbbobobo$
bbbboobbobobbbob$
oobobbbbobobbboo$
boooboobbbbobbbo$
oobbbbooobbobbbo$
oooooooboobbbbbo$
obboooboboooobbo$
bobobbbobbbooooo!
still lost in OCA and stuck on contributing to CGOL
Code: Select all
x = 5, y = 7, rule = B2n3cq4e5y6c7c/S23k
2o$2o3$3bo$3b2o$3bo!
Code: Select all
x = 4, y = 1, rule = B3jkr5ak/S2n34a5i
4o!
 toroidalet
 Posts: 1209
 Joined: August 7th, 2016, 1:48 pm
 Location: My computer
 Contact:
Re: Soup search results
Rob Liston found another loafer in G1 3 days ago (it forms extremely quickly; the first phase of the ship appears in generation 7):
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
bbooooobbobbbboo$
bboboooobobbboob$
bbbbbbbbboboooob$
obbbooobobbooboo$
bobboboboobobooo$
obbbbobooobboooo$
boobbbobbobboobb$
obbobooooboboboo$
booobbbbboobbbob$
obobobobooboooob$
oboboooooobbboob$
obboooboooboobob$
boboobbobbbooobo$
bobbbooobboobbbb$
bbbobbobboobobbb$
oboooobbbbbobbob!
Creationism is an insult to God. He would have done a much better job.

 Posts: 548
 Joined: June 27th, 2009, 10:58 am
 Location: Germany
Re: Soup search results
Apparently it takes a very rare combination of switch engines to produce a yl96, since we don't even have one of those in C1 yet  even though almost thirty times as many objects have been catagolued for that symmetry.HartmutHolzwart wrote: ↑August 26th, 2020, 11:09 amTher is a natural yl96 in G1:
http://catagolue.appspot.com/object/yl9 ... 5e09/b3s23
Re: Soup search results
The number of soups is the important metric: C1 has 38 trillion soups and G1 has 87 trillion soups, so G1 is over twice as large. That's why there are 778 cistwinbeesshuttles in C1 and 1689 of them in G1.dvgrn wrote: ↑August 26th, 2020, 12:20 pmApparently it takes a very rare combination of switch engines to produce a yl96, since we don't even have one of those in C1 yet  even though almost thirty times as many objects have been catagolued for that symmetry.HartmutHolzwart wrote: ↑August 26th, 2020, 11:09 amTher is a natural yl96 in G1:
http://catagolue.appspot.com/object/yl9 ... 5e09/b3s23
The reason that the reported object count is lower for G1 is that 'uninteresting' soups (those that quickly settle into p1/p2/p3/p6 ash with some combination of escaping standard spaceships) aren't censused, so each contribute zero objects to the census.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the monoclinic!
 Moosey
 Posts: 4027
 Joined: January 27th, 2019, 5:54 pm
 Location: A house, or perhaps the OCA board. Or [click to not expand]
 Contact:
Re: Soup search results
Interesting!
I wonder when a 2EC will pop up, considering that it's also a (rare) combination of two SE's.
I wonder when a 2EC will pop up, considering that it's also a (rare) combination of two SE's.
My CA rules can be found here
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"
Nanho walåt derwo esaato?
leaplife advertising bad!
Bill Watterson once wrote: "How do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?"
Nanho walåt derwo esaato?
leaplife advertising bad!