Can we substantiate this claim?
Can we substantiate this claim?
The purpose of this thread is to have a place to note unsubstantiated assertions made on the wiki without a reference (as opposed to merely marking it "citation needed"), and see if anyone can help provide references.
Here is one such assertion: "A blockic constellation is a constellation consisting entirely of blocks. It's possible to arrange blocks in a way that can be triggered by a single glider to produce any glider constructible pattern." https://conwaylife.com/wiki/Block
Here is one such assertion: "A blockic constellation is a constellation consisting entirely of blocks. It's possible to arrange blocks in a way that can be triggered by a single glider to produce any glider constructible pattern." https://conwaylife.com/wiki/Block
Phil Bookman
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Sure, that's a consequence of the existence of Blockic turners and splitters, plus mechanisms like the clock inserter. This topic is actually covered in a lot of detail in Chapter 5 of the Life textbook, especially starting with Section 5.7 and ending with Theorems 5.1 and 5.2.Book wrote: ↑May 26th, 2022, 3:49 pmThe purpose of this thread is to have a place to note unsubstantiated assertions made on the wiki without a reference (as opposed to merely marking it "citation needed"), and see if anyone can help provide references.
Here is one such assertion: "A blockic constellation is a constellation consisting entirely of blocks. It's possible to arrange blocks in a way that can be triggered by a single glider to produce any glider constructible pattern." https://conwaylife.com/wiki/Block
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Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
But why did you remove the tag so hastily without providing a reference or asking for them here?
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107829
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107775
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107734
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107733
熠熠种花 - Glimmering Garden
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Couldn't ask for them here on this thread since it didn't exist yet. It seems like the checkin comment on all of those edits answers the "why" question very clearly:GUYTU6J wrote: ↑May 27th, 2022, 4:22 amBut why did you remove the tag so hastily without providing a reference or asking for them here?
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107829
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107775
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107734
https://conwaylife.com/w/index.php?titl ... did=107733
Now, it's a separate question whether everyone agrees that that's the right policy! It does seem reasonable to me that statements about the period from 1992 to 2009 can generally be assumed to be accurate, until and unless there's some internal inconsistency with other such statements elsewhere.(nah, we'd have this tag on dozens of articles with discoveries from that era)
This is certainly a bit of a compromise, but it seems like the best we can do because of the highly awkward privacy policy of the old LifeCA mailing list. LifeCA was where 99% of new Conway's Life discoveries were recorded and discussed during that period (and 99% of Life-like CA and early OCA discoveries, for that matter). There was an agreement that, while the patterns themselves and the technical information in the emails were to be considered public domain, the emails themselves were not supposed to be republished or quoted without permission from the authors.
I tried at one point to get permission to republish from everyone active on LifeCA. But I never got responses back from a fairly large subset of the group -- and of course some LifeCA participants from the 1990s have since passed away. It used to be possible for interested people to get official access to the archives by joining the group (which required a nomination and a second). Now that LifeCA is defunct that's not really an option any more either.
-- All very unsatisfactory. By this time, many of the useful details have been extracted from the LifeCA archives and made available on the LifeWiki, but we can't easily add citations that really get back to the original source material.
Sometimes There's a Workaround
Now, David Bell has given blanket permission for republication of old emails like this one. In a case like the pre-pulsar spaceship where Ian07 added the citation-needed tag several years ago, because of not being able to find an exact reference -- it might be reasonable to reproduce David Bell's email here, and then link to this as a reasonably authoritative citation:
Probably Best to Request LifeCA Citations Only When NecessaryOn Sat, 13 Jun 1998, David Bell wrote:Subject: The c/5 pre-pulsar ships can store a bit of information
The period 30 c/5 pre-pulsar ship can be converted back and forth between its symmetrical form to its asymmetrical form. (For lack of better names for them, I will use the initials PPS for the generic pre-pulsar ship of either type, SPPS for the symmetrical form, and APPS for the asymmetrical form.)
The conversion can be done by impacting the back of the PPS by a standard spaceship. Here are several such reactions which turn a SPPS into an APPS, two of which leave a small object as debris:
The following reaction is one which converts an APPS back into a SPPS:Code: Select all
x = 335, y = 44, rule = B3/S23 296bo5bo$164bo5bo124b3o3b3o$163b3o3b3o122booboobooboo$162booboobooboo 122b3o3b3o$32bo5bo124b3o3b3o124bo5bo$31b3o3b3o124bo5bo97bo5boo5boo5bo 21bo5boo5boo5bo$30booboobooboo95bo5boo5boo5bo21bo5boo5boo5bo67bobboob oobbo3bobbooboobbo17bobbooboobbo3bobbooboobbo$31b3o3b3o94bobbooboobbo 3bobbooboobbo17bobbooboobbo3bobbooboobbo63b3o4bobo3bobo3bobo4b3o13b3o 4bobo3bobo3bobo4b3o$32bo5bo93b3o4bobo3bobo3bobo4b3o13b3o4bobo3bobo3bob o4b3o61boobbobb3oboo3boob3obbobboo13boobbobb3oboo3boob3obbobboo$4bo5b oo5boo5bo21bo5boo5boo5bo65boobbobb3oboo3boob3obbobboo13boobbobb3oboo3b oob3obbobboo61b3obb3o4bo3bo4b3obb3o13b3obb3o4bo3bo4b3obb3o$bbobbooboo bbo3bobbooboobbo17bobbooboobbo3bobbooboobbo63b3obb3o4bo3bo4b3obb3o13b 3obb3o4bo3bo4b3obb3o62bobobbo15bobbobo15bobobbo15bobbobo$3o4bobo3bobo 3bobo4b3o13b3o4bobo3bobo3bobo4b3o62bobobbo15bobbobo15bobobbo15bobbobo 64bo23bo17bo23bo$oobbobb3oboo3boob3obbobboo13boobbobb3oboo3boob3obbobb oo63bo23bo17bo23bo$3obb3o4bo3bo4b3obb3o13b3obb3o4bo3bo4b3obb3o$bobobbo 15bobbobo15bobobbo15bobbobo$bbo23bo17bo23bo19$34bo$33b3o$33boboo$34b3o $34b3o128bo$34boo128b3o131bo$163boobo130b3o$163b3o130boobo$163b3o130b 3o$164boo131boo!
The above reaction, and the end two of the previous reactions have the nice property that if the spaceship hits the wrong type of PPS, then it is cleanly destroyed.Code: Select all
x = 73, y = 41, rule = B3/S23 32b3o3b3o$31bo3bobo3bo$31bo3bobo3bo$31bo3bobo3bo$32b3o3b3o$6bo3b3o5b3o 3bo23bo3b3o5b3o3bo$3boob5oboo3boob5oboo17boob5oboo3boob5oboo$boboobo5b obobobo5boboobo3boo8boboobo5bobobobo5boboobo$o3bobo3b5ob5o3bobo3bobobb o6bo3bobo3b5ob5o3bobo3bo$4b3o5boo3boo5b3o6boo11b3o5boo3boo5b3o$bobbob 3o13b3obobbo13bobbob3o13b3obobbo$3bo23bo17bo23bo25$34b3o$34bobbo$34bo$ 34bo$35bobo!
What these reactions (and others like them) mean, is that a PPS can be used to store a moving bit of information. Spaceships coming from the back can used to reset the bit, or to set the bit, or to set the bit while creating a piece of debris which can then be tested to determine what the state was.
One application of this is a moving period doubling device, which accepts gliders coming in from the side, and which emits one glider for every two gliders which arrive. Very high period puffers can then be made by cascading copies of this device together.
I haven't built such a period doubling device. The naive approach of using a single period 360 c/5 LWSS rake for both the setting and resetting spaceships doesn't work because of the spacing between the LWWS's. I think you have to construct a convoy of two spaceships.
As a start on the problem, here is a period 360 forwards LWSS rake:
Are there any other uses for such a moving memory ship?Code: Select all
x = 914, y = 469, rule = B3/S23 433b3o$432bobbo$435bo$435bo$432bobo104$433b3o$432bobbo$435bo$435bo$ 432bobo21$120b3o3b3o344b3o3b3o$120bobo3bobo344bobo3bobo$120b3o3b3o344b 3o3b3o$$99boo5boo33boo5boo302boo5boo33boo5boo$91b4obobobo5bobobob4o17b 4obobobo5bobobob4o286b4obobobo5bobobob4o17b4obobobo5bobobob4o$90b3obob oboobo3boboobobob3o4boo9b3oboboboobo3boboobobob3o284b3oboboboobo3boboo bobob3o9boo4b3oboboboobo3boboobobob3o$90bo3bobo13bobo3bo3bobo9bo3bobo 13bobo3bo284bo3bobo13bobo3bo9bobo3bo3bobo13bobo3bo$91bob3o5booboo5b3ob o5boo10bob3o5booboo5b3obo286bob3o5booboo5b3obo10boo5bob3o5booboo5b3obo $91boo21boo17boo21boo286boo21boo17boo21boo$91b5o15b5o17b5o15b5o286b5o 15b5o17b5o15b5o$94boo15boo23boo15boo292boo15boo23boo15boo4$119bo$118bo bo$118bobbo$111bo7boo326boo$109boo4bo330bobo$114bobbo330bo$113bo3b4o$ 109boobb3obobbo$111bobo4b3o4$123boo73boo$122bobbo72bobo$123bobo72bo$ 90boo5boo5boo5boo11bo12bo3b3o5b3o3bo290bo3b3o5b3o3bo24boo5boo5boo5boo$ 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bbo148bobbob3o13b3obobbo$358b3o4bobo3bobo3bobo4b3o148bo23bo$358boobbo bb3oboo3boob3obbobboo$358b3obb3o4bo3bo4b3obb3o$359bobobbo15bobbobo$ 360bo23bo$412boo5boo$404b4obobobo5bobobob4o$403b3oboboboobo3boboobobob 3o$403bo3bobo13bobo3bo$404bob3o5booboo5b3obo$404boo21boo$404b5o15b5o$ 407boo15boo108bo3b3o5b3o3bo$531boob5oboo3boob5oboo$529boboobo5bobobobo 5boboobo$528bo3bobo3b5ob5o3bobo3bo$532b3o5boo3boo5b3o$529bobbob3o13b3o bobbo$531bo23bo$488boo5boo5boo5boo$486bo3bo3bobbo3bobbo3bo3bo$486bo3bo bob3o5b3obobo3bo$486bo5boobb3ob3obboo5bo$486boob3o15b3oboo$486bo25bo$ 487bo3bo15bo3bo$488bobbo15bobbo!
Finally, it probably would be easier if gliders could do the conversion between flavors of PPS. I haven't found any such reaction using a single glider. Perhaps a pair of gliders could do the job.
BCNU,
-dbell-
I'm open to suggestions for what we could do differently here, but it's a slightly tricky situation. It takes a fair amount of fiddling around to convert an individual email message like the one above into a forums-friendly format, so dozens or hundreds of repost requests wouldn't work very well.
No doubt we could write something to bulk-convert the posts for everyone who has given blanket permission for republication... but that's also quite a bit of work, so I'm not necessarily volunteering to take on that task either. Meanwhile, a workable alternative seems to be to switch to a "citation NOT needed" policy for most information from the 1992-2009 era, as Book has done here.
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Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Done, thanks!dvgrn wrote: ↑May 27th, 2022, 10:24 am... In a case like the pre-pulsar spaceship where Ian07 added the citation-needed tag several years ago, because of not being able to find an exact reference -- it might be reasonable to reproduce David Bell's email here, and then link to this as a reasonably authoritative citation...
Frankly, I would rather avoid mentioning a bit of information than make an unsupported claim in some cases like the fly-by deletion&reanimation issues and the discovery of eater 4.... Meanwhile, a workable alternative seems to be to switch to a "citation NOT needed" policy for most information from the 1992-2009 era, as Book has done here.
Can I request for the background info for almost knightship? The short introduction has failed to cover these questions that someone may be interested in: What was the search program that found the partial? How much time and software/hardware configuration was required? Were there other promising results from the same search? And so on.
熠熠种花 - Glimmering Garden
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
That's a tough one. Eugene Langvagen was only briefly active on LifeCA, with just half a dozen messages in 2003-4, and nothing specifically about the almost knightship -- though it can still be found on his SourceForge page.GUYTU6J wrote: ↑May 27th, 2022, 11:08 amCan I request for the background info for almost knightship? The short introduction has failed to cover these questions that someone may be interested in: What was the search program that found the partial? How much time and software/hardware configuration was required? Were there other promising results from the same search? And so on.
I'll venture to quote here the two posts related to afind:On LifeCA, Eugene Langvagen wrote:Subject: Wickstretcher and ships in alternate Life rules (Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:16pm)
Subject: Glider-supported 7c/40 diagonal puffer (Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:40pm)
Subject: period 180/2 wick (Fri Jan 9, 2004 8:45am)
Subject: period 106 r-pentomino wall (Wed May 5, 2004 7:52pm)
On May 3, 2004 4:59pm, Eugene Langvagen wrote: Subject: c/7 ship search status
There seems to be no explicit mention in the List archives of anyone trying a search for c/7 ships.
Here are some partial patterns I have:
Code: Select all
x = 20, y = 38, rule = B3/S23 2obo2bo6bo2bob2o$b2ob2o8b2ob2o$bo3b2o6b2o3bo$2b2obobo4bobob2o$4bo 2b2o2b2o2bo$4bo2bo4bo2bo$5bobo4bobo2$6bo6bo$5bo2bo2bo2bo$5bobo4b obo$6bo6bo2$6bob4obo$5b2ob4ob2o$6bob4obo$6bo6bo$5b3o4b3o$4b3o6b3o $3b3o8b3o$2bo14bo$2bo14bo2$2b3o10b3o2$2bobo10bobo$2bobo10bobo$2b obo10bobo$4bo10bo$2b2o12b2o$5bo8bo$2b3o10b3o$3bo12bo2$3bo12bo$2b obo10bobo$2bobo10bobo$3bo12bo!
Code: Select all
x = 32, y = 37, rule = B3/S23 7b3o12b3o$2bobo2bo16bo2bobo$5bo20bo$bo3b2o18b2o3bo$2o4bo18bo4b2o$ 3bo3bo16bo3bo$3bobobo16bobobo$2b2o3b2o14b2o3b2o$3bobobo16bobobo$ 5b3o16b3o$bo5bo16bo5bo$bo3bo20bo3bo$2bo3bo18bo3bo$4b2o20b2o$5bo2b o14bo2bo$9bo12bo$4bo4bo12bo4bo$4bo4bo12bo4bo$5b5o12b5o$5b2o2bo12b o2b2o$7b2o14b2o$9bobo8bobo$11b2o6b2o$12bo6bo$9bo12bo$8b3o10b3o$8b 2o2b2o4b2o2b2o$12b2o4b2o$12bo6bo$12b3o2b3o$12b3o2b3o$13bob2obo2$ 14bo2bo$14bo2bo$12b2o4b2o$14bo2bo!
Note that not the whole patterns are of limited width but the individual rows are. An additional restriction on each newly found row A, such that evolve(A,B,C)=D, was that A should extend no further than some amount of cells (3) beyond the total width occupied by B, C, and D.Code: Select all
x = 28, y = 35, rule = B3/S23 2b2o20b2o$3bobo16bobo$4bob2o12b2obo$4bob2o12b2obo$b3o2bo14bo2b3o$ 6bo14bo$4bobo14bobo$b2o22b2o$2bo22bo$2o24b2o$3ob2o16b2ob3o$4bo18b o$b5o16b5o$o26bo$b2o22b2o2$3b3o16b3o$6bobo10bobo$3bo3b3o8b3o3bo2$ 5b2ob2o8b2ob2o$5b2ob2o8b2ob2o$6bob2o8b2obo$5b2ob2o8b2ob2o$9bo8bo $8bo10bo$8b3o6b3o$10bo6bo$6bo14bo$7b3o8b3o$7b3o8b3o2$12bo2bo$10b 2o4b2o$11bo4bo!
(This I suppose is not a brand new approach - many c/4 ships seem to have been found in a similar way; a typical one "afind" gives looks like:
However it would be interesting for me to know exactly what that "similar way" was)Code: Select all
x = 36, y = 50, rule = B3/S23 2o2b2o24b2o2b2o$bo4bo22bo4bo$3b3o24b3o$5bo24bo$3b2o26b2o$3b2o26b2o $4b3o22b3o$5bobo20bobo$8bo18bo$6bo2bo16bo2bo$6bo3bo14bo3bo2$7b2o 2bo12bo2b2o$8b5o10b5o$11b2o10b2o$10bo14bo$8bobo14bobo$8b2o16b2o$ 8b3o14b3o$8bo18bo$7bo20bo$8b2obo12bob2o$9b4o10b4o$10bobo10bobo$9b o2b3o6b3o2bo$9b2o2b3o4b3o2b2o$9b2o3b2o4b2o3b2o$15b2o2b2o$14bo6bo $13b2o6b2o$11bobo8bobo2$11bo3bo4bo3bo$11bo4bo2bo4bo$11bo2bo6bo2b o$12bo3bo2bo3bo$12bob3o2b3obo3$14bo6bo$15b6o$12bob3o2b3obo$11bob ob2o2b2obobo$11bob2o6b2obo$11b2o10b2o$11bo12bo2$8bobo14bobo$9bo16b o$9bo16bo!
The overall strategy was to start with small width (6) and then to increase the width and revert to some previous search stage (but not the very beginning) each time the search completes. (which means I certainly miss patterns with wide rows in the leading edge)
It is thus rather tedious to describe exactly the area covered by the search; by the moment the width has been made 9 at depth around 250 (roughly corresponding to the patterns above).
ps. "afind" has been made available some time ago at http://plife.sf.net/programs/afind.cc (use gcc to compile).
On May 17, 2004, Eugene Langvagen wrote:Subject: Re: c/7 ship search status
On Monday 17 May 2004 12:36, Hartmut Holzwart wrote:
> Mostly to Eugene:
>
> I really liked your partial results, especially the left one which looks
> similar to the dragon. Maybe one way to effectively restrict the search for
> slow ships is to additionally require that they have a "stable head" that
> only moves in the last few generations.
>
> Did you ever try 3c/7 by the same method? You might need a bigger width for
> a start, but I expect the search to be much faster for two reasons:
>
> 1. There a fewer heads that move that fast, so this restricts the start of
> the search
> 2. Garbage has less time to catch up when there is a gap, so it is more
> likely to find a working rear end
>
> This is also supported by close observation of many searches (2c/4 vs c/4,
> 2c/5 vs. c/5), although never formally proven.
>
> I think that odd symmetric 3c/7 ships must be at least 23 cells wide, but
> do not know of results in terms of "effective width".
>
> Cheers,
> Hartmut
Yes, I have an uncompleted search for odd-symmetrical 3c/7 ships started in this way.
It hasn't run for too long so far; all I can say right now is that with current "effective" half-width 9 there occur rows with "actual" half-width up to 14 (corresponding to width 27). I guess you meant post #1767 by Paul Tooke when speaking of the minimal width 23 for the ships - if these results are still up-to-date, my search seems to do something new.
The "stable head" is pretty common when searching for slow ships, cf. this c/6 head:So restricting the start of the search as you propose may be worth trying though technically tricky.Code: Select all
x = 9, y = 16, rule = B3/S23 6b2o$7bo$7bo$5bo2bo$3b5o$3bo$2bobo2$4b2o$obo2b2o$3o2$3b2o$2bo2bo$ 2bobo$3bo!
Eugene
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Would a citation without a link be acceptable? e.g. something like:dvgrn wrote: ↑May 27th, 2022, 10:24 amNow, it's a separate question whether everyone agrees that that's the right policy! It does seem reasonable to me that statements about the period from 1992 to 2009 can generally be assumed to be accurate, until and unless there's some internal inconsistency with other such statements elsewhere.
This is certainly a bit of a compromise, but it seems like the best we can do because of the highly awkward privacy policy of the old LifeCA mailing list. LifeCA was where 99% of new Conway's Life discoveries were recorded and discussed during that period (and 99% of Life-like CA and early OCA discoveries, for that matter). There was an agreement that, while the patterns themselves and the technical information in the emails were to be considered public domain, the emails themselves were not supposed to be republished or quoted without permission from the authors.
I tried at one point to get permission to republish from everyone active on LifeCA. But I never got responses back from a fairly large subset of the group -- and of course some LifeCA participants from the 1990s have since passed away. It used to be possible for interested people to get official access to the archives by joining the group (which required a nomination and a second). Now that LifeCA is defunct that's not really an option any more either.
-- All very unsatisfactory. By this time, many of the useful details have been extracted from the LifeCA archives and made available on the LifeWiki, but we can't easily add citations that really get back to the original source material.
...
Probably Best to Request LifeCA Citations Only When Necessary
I'm open to suggestions for what we could do differently here, but it's a slightly tricky situation. It takes a fair amount of fiddling around to convert an individual email message like the one above into a forums-friendly format, so dozens or hundreds of repost requests wouldn't work very well.
No doubt we could write something to bulk-convert the posts for everyone who has given blanket permission for republication... but that's also quite a bit of work, so I'm not necessarily volunteering to take on that task either. Meanwhile, a workable alternative seems to be to switch to a "citation NOT needed" policy for most information from the 1992-2009 era, as Book has done here.
with the last part being an optional parameter.References
1. David Bell (June 13, 1998). "The c/5 pre-pulsar ships can store a bit of information". LifeCA. Reproduced with permission of the author.
Or, if we'd rather leave the subject line out:
My idea here is that people who do have access to the archives will know where exactly to look to verify the information, and that people who don't will hopefully take our word for it that the info is there.
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
I think we also should remember this is not Wikipedia. In many respects, our wiki has become the source of authoritative information about the earlier years if CGOL history with or without references. This, bolstered by much better referencing over the last decade, serves our community and posterity well.
I see little value in a citation needed tag that lingers in perpetuity.
I see little value in a citation needed tag that lingers in perpetuity.
Phil Bookman
-
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- Joined: August 5th, 2016, 10:27 am
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- Contact:
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
As for the 110P62 case, it was Mattias Merzenich who added discovery information in 2018. Did it come from the oscillator collection that he is maintaining?
... And wait, I have mentioned a bunch of similar cases before:
... And wait, I have mentioned a bunch of similar cases before:
To me, the lack of response indicates how inefficient the forums communication can sometimes be.GUYTU6J wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 11:26 pm...Many articles that Scot Ellison (Scotgot) had created a decade ago without providing a reference, and so may puzzle readers a bit about where the user had seen the patterns. Here is a list of other pages with the same issue: The last two has been questioned for notability as well. So I suppose citations for pattern source will be useful for the sake of life history.
熠熠种花 - Glimmering Garden
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
- confocaloid
- Posts: 3117
- Joined: February 8th, 2022, 3:15 pm
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
In the book "Polyominoes" by Solomon W. Golomb, figure 151 shows a way to form a rectangle using 50 copies of a certain 11-omino. An accompanying text says
and the footnote saysFigure 151 shows the example of order 50, found by William Rex Marshall of Dunedin, New Zealand, in 1990.*
Would this kind of reference to a private communication be helpful for referring to a certain private message without publishing the message itself?* William Rex Marshall, private communication dated 14 May 1990 and 25 November 1991.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
- confocaloid
- Posts: 3117
- Joined: February 8th, 2022, 3:15 pm
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
A citation needed tag seems a good way to draw attention to unsourced non-obvious claims. I see no harm in having these tags left in articles, even for a long time. Indeed, why attempt to polish the wiki and make it look like something perfect and finished, given that the LifeWiki (as probably every alive wiki out there) is a never-ending work-in-progress made by volunteers/hobbyists? LifeWiki differs from Wikipedia in some ways, e.g. in specific notability guidelines, but as far as I can tell many other general guidelines carry over.
(This may be slightly off-topic here, but please do not remove external links even if they seem to be dead for a long time. One reason is that there are archival projects and the linked page may still be available in archived form. Another reason is that the linked website might become available later on another address. Preserving a dead link may later help someone else to fix it later. Removing a dead link just because it seems to be dead now may in practice mean that some knowledge is lost forever - even if the link is still preserved in the edit history, what's the chance that someone will actually find it there a few years later?)
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
One more point on the value of raising such issues on this thread. The discussion of a claim which ensues on the forum, in which someone who knows stuff explains it and perhaps the source of it, even partially, sometimes is in and of itself a useful wiki reference.
Phil Bookman
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
These assertions are from the wiki Density article:
1. The numbers in this sequence closely approximate the triangular number sequence.
(I assume this refers to max pop column)
does not seem to "closely approximate" to me.
2. For any side length of the form 3n-1, a segment of block agar can be used to reach a population of 4n². Up to n = 4 this is the optimal solution.
substantiation? resolved and noted in article 6/21/22
3. The density of a space dusty oscillator or spaceship is usually between 0.25 and 0.3.
substantiation?
4. The maximum average density of an oscillating agar is conjectured but not proven to be 1/2. The current upper bound is 8/13, proven by Hartmut Holzwart in 1992.
substantiation?
1. The numbers in this sequence closely approximate the triangular number sequence.
(I assume this refers to max pop column)
does not seem to "closely approximate" to me.
2. For any side length of the form 3n-1, a segment of block agar can be used to reach a population of 4n². Up to n = 4 this is the optimal solution.
substantiation? resolved and noted in article 6/21/22
3. The density of a space dusty oscillator or spaceship is usually between 0.25 and 0.3.
substantiation?
4. The maximum average density of an oscillating agar is conjectured but not proven to be 1/2. The current upper bound is 8/13, proven by Hartmut Holzwart in 1992.
substantiation?
Last edited by Book on June 21st, 2022, 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Phil Bookman
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Code: Select all
0 4 8 16 18 28 36 43 54 64 76 90 104 119 136 152 171 190 210
3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 90 105 120 136 153 171 190 210
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries
Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,44,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576
S: SKOP
G: gun
Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,44,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576
S: SKOP
G: gun
- confocaloid
- Posts: 3117
- Joined: February 8th, 2022, 3:15 pm
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
I'd just like to state my own position on the "citation needed" tags, red links, and other (what I consider to be) consequences of the fact that the wiki is a work-in-progress. Specifically, I think there is no measurable harm in having these things left in articles and seen by readers for an indefinite period. I think that without having these lightweight and easy-to-use ways to specify intentions of editors, maintenance may become significantly harder. It seems much easier to delete a citation needed tag/a red link/ask for substantiation than to provide one. I do not think it is necessary to raise such issues individually - when there is no simple obvious solution and no obvious harm, it might be reasonable to leave things as they are.
A claim with a "citation needed" tag might be a simple lightweight way to preserve some knowledge while making it sufficiently clear that it may not be sufficiently well-sourced. I do not see an obvious immediate implication that such tags must be dealt with as soon as possible.
Similarly, a red link to a (currently) non-existent article may be a simple lightweight way to specify that that article is intended to be created later, or that it would be nice to have that article. Another useful consequence is that when there are links (red or not), it becomes possible to use the "What links here" tool to know contexts where a certain term or idea is mentioned/discussed, which may further help to understand how/if to write a dedicated article. Without red links, "What links here" does not work.
TL,DR: I think red links and "citation needed" tags may be useful in wiki.
A claim with a "citation needed" tag might be a simple lightweight way to preserve some knowledge while making it sufficiently clear that it may not be sufficiently well-sourced. I do not see an obvious immediate implication that such tags must be dealt with as soon as possible.
Similarly, a red link to a (currently) non-existent article may be a simple lightweight way to specify that that article is intended to be created later, or that it would be nice to have that article. Another useful consequence is that when there are links (red or not), it becomes possible to use the "What links here" tool to know contexts where a certain term or idea is mentioned/discussed, which may further help to understand how/if to write a dedicated article. Without red links, "What links here" does not work.
TL,DR: I think red links and "citation needed" tags may be useful in wiki.
127:1 B3/S234c User:Confocal/R (isotropic CA, incomplete)
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Unlikely events happen.
My silence does not imply agreement, nor indifference. If I disagreed with something in the past, then please do not construe my silence as something that could change that.
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Well, is it really that surprising? Both sequences are O(n^2).hotdogPi wrote: ↑May 29th, 2022, 8:25 pmAs for #3, it's simply my personal observation.Code: Select all
0 4 8 16 18 28 36 43 54 64 76 90 104 119 136 152 171 190 210 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 90 105 120 136 153 171 190 210
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
As GUYTU6J has noted on the Tempest page: where did the name Tempest come from? Not in DRH's stamp collection nor mentioned searching any of the usual suspects. Note the recentness of this article's creation.
Phil Bookman
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Ahem. I'm embarrassed to admit that that was my fault -- calcyman picked up an injudicious naming suggestion of mine and put it into Catagolue.
On Discord on 7 Dec 2021, dvgrn wrote:I can usually resist trying to apply names to things, but I wanted to call that one "tempest", because there's a ship-shape in the middle of it getting tossed wildly around.
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
So shall we move it to xp4_04qkc1qqz1606621? And let it seek its teapot (whatever that means)....dvgrn wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 5:11 pmAhem. I'm embarrassed to admit that that was my fault -- calcyman picked up an injudicious naming suggestion of mine and put it into Catagolue.
On Discord on 7 Dec 2021, dvgrn wrote:I can usually resist trying to apply names to things, but I wanted to call that one "tempest", because there's a ship-shape in the middle of it getting tossed wildly around.
Phil Bookman
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Keep it where it is. By now, it's an established name.
User:HotdogPi/My discoveries
Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,44,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576
S: SKOP
G: gun
Periods discovered: 5-16,⑱,⑳G,㉑G,㉒㉔㉕,㉗-㉛,㉜SG,㉞㉟㊱㊳㊵㊷㊹㊺㊽㊿,54G,55G,56,57G,60,62-66,68,70,73,74S,75,76S,80,84,88,90,96
100,02S,06,08,10,12,14G,16,17G,20,26G,28,38,44,47,48,54,56,72,74,80,92,96S
217,486,576
S: SKOP
G: gun
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
This is from the F116 article:
After 116 ticks, it produces a Herschel at (32, 1) relative to the input. Its recovery time is 138 ticks; this can be reduced to 120 ticks by adding extra mechanisms to suppress the internal glider.
Can we substantiate the bold text?
After 116 ticks, it produces a Herschel at (32, 1) relative to the input. Its recovery time is 138 ticks; this can be reduced to 120 ticks by adding extra mechanisms to suppress the internal glider.
Can we substantiate the bold text?
Phil Bookman
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Yeah, there's a 120-tick version possible by adding a galaxy, for example:Book wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 1:33 pmThis is from the F116 article:
After 116 ticks, it produces a Herschel at (32, 1) relative to the input. Its recovery time is 138 ticks; this can be reduced to 120 ticks by adding extra mechanisms to suppress the internal glider.
Can we substantiate the bold text?
Code: Select all
x = 99, y = 55, rule = LifeHistory
C$.2C$2C16$50.C2.C$54.C$55.2C$49.C.2C6.C$49.C2.C3.C$48.C3.C.3C$47.C
11.C2.A$50.3C.C3.C3.3A$50.C3.C2.C7.A$47.C6.2C.C6.2A4.2B$29.B20.2C8.B
3.8B$28.3B21.C5.4B4.7B$28.2BC22.C2.C6B.9B$29.2B2C10.A13.6B.10B$30.2C.
B7.3A12.19B$31.4B5.A14.19B$32.4B4.2A13.17B$25.2A6.9B14.15B26.C$26.A7.
6B14.17B25.C.C$26.A.2A5.6B3.B2.2B2.22B23.C.C$27.A2.A4.19BD21B3.2B2.2B
12.C$28.2AB3.6BD13BDBD4B.24BC$29.9BDBD2B2A9B3D4B2.23BCBD$30.9B2D2B2A
11BD4B2.23B3CB$31.29B4.24BC$31.17B.4B10.24B$32.15B17.16B.B$32.15B17.
12B$33.13B5.A3.2A7.9B$35.13B2.A.A3.A6.11B5.2A$34.8B4.2A.A.A3.A8.7B.B
2A5.A$34.6B6.2ABA4.A11.4B2.BA.A.3A$34.5B8.B2.5A.A8.B2A2B5.A.A$34.B.B
5.2A.A.2A.A4.A.A8.2A7.2A$35.3B4.A.2A.A2.A.2A2.A$34.B2AB11.2A.A.2A$35.
2A!
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
Two unsubstantiated claims from the Fly-by deletion article:
1. The deletion of a pond appears to require a convoy which is 89 cells in width containing a very unusual p4 spaceship which has 273 cells.
2. There are small objects which have no known fly-by deletion reactions. (I know, tough to prove "no known" but still...)
1. The deletion of a pond appears to require a convoy which is 89 cells in width containing a very unusual p4 spaceship which has 273 cells.
2. There are small objects which have no known fly-by deletion reactions. (I know, tough to prove "no known" but still...)
Phil Bookman
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- Location: 拆哪!I repeat, CHINA! (a.k.a. 种花家)
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Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
I have linked to dvgrn's previous answer above.
---
This is a forums post rather than a LifeWiki statement, but I think it counts:
Can someone find this "smaller variant"? I am curious whether it is strictly volatile, and if yes, whether it is smaller than FractalFusion's solution.calcyman wrote: ↑July 23rd, 2009, 11:13 am...
And a beautiful skew-symmetric constructible p33 also exists:A smaller variant of this can reflect gliders.Code: Select all
x = 75, y = 75, rule = B3/S23 29bobo$28boo11bobo$27b3o13boo$29bo13b3o$43bo$29bo$29bo13bo$28bobo12bo$ 29boo11bobo$29bo12boo$43bo$$26bo$25boo19bo$25bobo18boo$26bo18bobo$26bo 19bo$46bo$26bo$26b3o17bo$25b3o16b3o$45boo$46bobo3$54bo5boo$22bo31b3ob ooboo$14boo38boo4bo11bo$13booboob4o32bo11bo4boo$3bo11bo4boo43booboob4o $bboo4bo11bo45boo$b4obooboo63bo$8boo$bo8$73bo$65boo$o63booboob4o$7boo 45bo11bo4boo$4obooboo43boo4bo11bo$boo4bo11bo32b4obooboo$bbo11bo4boo38b oo$12booboob3o31bo$13boo5bo3$26bobo$28boo$28b3o16b3o$28bo17b3o$48bo$ 28bo$28bo19bo$27bobo18bo$27boo18bobo$28bo19boo$48bo$$31bo$31boo12bo$ 30bobo11boo$31bo12bobo$31bo13bo$45bo$31bo$29b3o13bo$30boo13b3o$31bobo 11boo$43bobo!
熠熠种花 - Glimmering Garden
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
Harvest Moon
2-engine p45 gliderless HWSS gun
Small p2070 glider gun
Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm.
Re: Can we substantiate this claim?
It's this one, and it's far from strictly volatile (it's not even statorless).GUYTU6J wrote: ↑June 9th, 2022, 4:52 amThis is a forums post rather than a LifeWiki statement, but I think it counts:Can someone find this "smaller variant"? I am curious whether it is strictly volatile, and if yes, whether it is smaller than FractalFusion's solution.
Code: Select all
x = 51, y = 59, rule = B3/S23
4bo31b3o$3bobo32bo$3b2o32bo$3b2o$2b2o$2bo$2bo7bo$2b2o5bo$3b2o4bo3bo14b
2o$2b3o3b2o19b2o$3b2o4b2ob3o13bo$10bob2obobo$2o10bo2bob3o$3o9bo2bo4bo$
2o15bob3o$b2o13bo$2bo7bo6b4o3b2o$2bo6b4o6bo4bobo$b2o10bo10bo$2o6b3obo$
3o6bo4bo2bo$obo7b3obo2bo$bo10bobob2obo$15b3ob2o$20b2o3b2o6bo$16bo3bo4b
2o5b2o$20bo11bobo$19bo4$19bo$18bo$12b2o4bo3bo17b3o$12b2o3b2o21bo$18b2o
b3o17bo$19bob2obobo10bo$21bo2bob3o7bobo$21bo2bo4bo6b3o$26bob3o6b2o$25b
o10b2o$19bo6b4o6bo12b2o$18b4o6bo7bo11b2o$22bo13b2o12bo$17b3obo15b2o$
18bo4bo2bo9b3o$19b3obo2bo10b2o$21bobob2obo$24b3ob2o4b2o$29b2o3b3o$25bo
3bo4b2o$29bo5b2o$28bo7bo$36bo$35b2o$34b2o$34b2o$33bobo$34bo!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!