Let's create an alien biosphere!

[MathAndCode]

I know that, I asked if it had any effect.

I don't think that it would have a significant effect, but I'm not completely sure. It's probably best to stick to what we know a lot about.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

I don't think that it would have a significant effect, but I'm not completely sure. It's probably best to stick to what we know a lot about.

Let's use those then. From now on, if we're faced with a choice where we don't have much support for either side, let's choose the familiar one.

[MathAndCode]

Let's use those then. From now on, if we're faced with a choice where we don't have much support for either side, let's choose the familiar one.

Okay. Now can we discuss the new variants?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Okay. Now can we discuss the new variants?

You mean we should construct the amino acids according to the list you made?

[MathAndCode]

You mean we should construct the amino acids according to the list you made?

I mean the new variants of organisms that will increase the biodiversity.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

I mean the new variants of organisms that will increase the biodiversity.

I think this is a good time to create viruses. We could start with parasitism or the package method we talked about earlier, though to do that we would need to find a reason for organisms to mutually benefit from sharing genetic information.

[MathAndCode]

I think this is a good time to create viruses. We could start with parasitism or the package method we talked about earlier, though to do that we would need to find a reason for organisms to mutually benefit from sharing genetic information.

I think that it's better to wait to create viruses until there is a higher biodensity because then, viruses will be able to spread more easily.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

I think that it's better to wait to create viruses until there is a higher biodensity because then, viruses will be able to spread more easily.

Ok, what new clades of microorganisms do you think might arise then?

[MathAndCode]

Ok, what new clades of microorganisms do you think might arise then?

There will probably be more organisms that make extensive use of reactions involving nitrogen-containing compounds.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

There will probably be more organisms that make extensive use of reactions involving nitrogen-containing compounds.

I had mentioned formamide and ammonia. How might they use those? There is also isocyanic acid and hydrogen cyanide.

[MathAndCode]

I had mentioned formamide and ammonia. How might they use those? There is also isocyanic acid and hydrogen cyanide.

They could likely use isocyanic acid and hydrogen cyanide as sources of energy, at least until they get depleted.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

They could likely use isocyanic acid and hydrogen cyanide as sources of energy, at least until they get depleted.

The are cycles for both of them:

Formamide will be formed in the atmosphere from ammonia reacting with carbon monoxide and water reacting with hydrogen cyanide, be delivered to the surface via precipitation, and enter the oceans. At the bottom of the oceans, it will be converted by solid acid catalysts or heat from hydrothermal vents back into carbon monoxide and ammonia or into water and hydrogen cyanide. The first two of these compounds are gases at any temperature at which water is not solid (at least at standard pressure) and can only be dissolved in water in limited quantities, so they will reenter the atmosphere. The water will reenter the atmosphere through evaporation. Hydrogen cyanide would be liquid at the temperatures in most of Earth's ocean water, and it is miscible with water, but its vapor pressure is much higher than that of water, so it will evaporate into the atmosphere at a much greater rate that that of water. There will also be a reversible reaction where water and isocyanic acid interchange with ammonia and carbon dioxide. Isocyanic acid will be a similar case to hydrogen cyanide in the sense that its boiling point is near room temperature, and its vapor pressure is much higher than that of water (which is related to its lower boiling point), so it will enter the atmosphere from the oceans much more readily than water.

Parts of the cycles though depend on CO though, which is almost completely depleted now.

[MathAndCode]

Parts of the cycles though depend on CO though, which is almost completely depleted now.

They could make it if they evolve photosynthesis.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

They could make it if they evolve photosynthesis.

So they could create CO themselves and use it to create formamide? Would they have to prevent the CO from oxidising to do that?

[MathAndCode]

So they could create CO themselves and use it to create formamide? Would they have to prevent the CO from oxidising to do that?

If they react it with the ammonia quickly, it wouldn't have much time to oxidize. In fact, they could potentially make formamide without a having carbon monoxide as an intermediate (e.g. carbamic acid). However, we should probably consider the feasibility of photosynthesis developing, whether or not there are any feasible pathways, and how much these organisms need photosynthesis.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

If they react it with the ammonia quickly, it wouldn't have much time to oxidize. In fact, they could potentially make formamide without a having carbon monoxide as an intermediate (e.g. carbamic acid). However, we should probably consider the feasibility of photosynthesis developing, whether or not there are any feasible pathways, and how much these organisms need photosynthesis.

This is separate from glycerol photosynthesis, right? Also, Wikipedia says carbamic acid (along with equal amounts of ammonium carbamate) forms from formamide and carbon dioxide at vey low temperatures.

[MathAndCode]

This is separate from glycerol photosynthesis, right?

Yes.

Also, Wikipedia says carbamic acid (along with equal amounts of ammonium carbamate) forms from formamide and carbon dioxide at vey low temperatures.

Yes, but the temperatures won't be low enough in this case.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Yes, but the temperatures won't be low enough in this case.

What might be the specific reaction they use to make formamide then?

[MathAndCode]

What might be the specific reaction they use to make formamide then?

They could make carbamide then figure out how to remove one of the oxygen atoms. However, ammonia is going to get depleted eventually.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

They could make carbamide then figure out how to remove one of the oxygen atoms. However, ammonia is going to get depleted eventually.

You're right. It might happen in a few million years if they're widespread enough.

There will also be a reversible reaction where water and isocyanic acid interchange with ammonia and carbon dioxide.

Could they use this?

[MathAndCode]

Could they use this?

No unless they create the isocyanic acid themselves.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

No unless they create the isocyanic acid themselves.

Of the three way of synthesizing it on Wikipedia, this seems the most likely to me:
OC(NH₂)₂ → HNCO + NH₃

[MathAndCode]

Of the three way of synthesizing it on Wikipedia, this seems the most likely to me:
OC(NH₂)₂ → HNCO + NH₃

I agree, especially because some Earth organisms (including humans) create urea as a waste product.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

I agree, especially because some Earth organisms (including humans) create urea as a waste product.

I found one source that says that bacteria produce urea. I guess we can assume they break down unrecyclable proteins into urea and then use it to make isocyanic acid, which they in turn use to create ammonia.

[MathAndCode]

I found one source that says that bacteria produce urea. I guess we can assume they break down unrecyclable proteins into urea and then use it to make isocyanic acid, which they in turn use to create ammonia.

I know that humans turn recyclable amino acids into ammonia then turn the ammonia into urea. Bacteria probably do the same thing.