Board And Card Games

[MathAndCode]

Ok, I get your point, but there is a real possibility that two populations can speciate over time, especially if we are planning to have this game this game played continuously. There is also parapatric speciation, where speciation can happen while gene flow still happens. How do you plan on keeping reproduction random?

While parapatric speciation does sometimes occur, it requires more than a mild hindrance of gene flow. If I remember correctly, then assuming everything besides transfer between the two populations is random (including the only cause of genetic divergence being genetic drift, not differing evolutionary pressures), one individual being transferred each way per generation is sufficient to prevent speciation. In order for speciation to occur with gene flow, there must be some factor besides a partial geographic barrier, such as differing mating behaviors, intentional mating selection for more similar mates, or evolutionary pressure against hybrids, and often, multiple such factors are present. If players simply make their species mate randomly, that should be sufficient to prevent parapatric speciation in the majority of cases.
By the way, over what area will this game be played, and how much geographic/environmental variation will the region have?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

While parapatric speciation does sometimes occur, it requires more than a mild hindrance of gene flow. If I remember correctly, then assuming everything besides transfer between the two populations is random (including the only cause of genetic divergence being genetic drift, not differing evolutionary pressures), one individual being transferred each way per generation is sufficient to prevent speciation. In order for speciation to occur with gene flow, there must be some factor besides a partial geographic barrier, such as differing mating behaviors, intentional mating selection for more similar mates, or evolutionary pressure against hybrids, and often, multiple such factors are present. If players simply make their species mate randomly, that should be sufficient to prevent parapatric speciation in the majority of cases.
By the way, over what area will this game be played, and how much geographic/environmental variation will the region have?

For your mechanism to work, we need entirely random reproduction, as you said. I guess we're going to ignore stuff like sexual selection and homophily that could cause non-random reproduction in this case. But there still could be other things like two different populations of a species living in two different habitats. Also, a minor correction: speciation can happen within a few ten thousand years. Sometimes it can happen in a matter of decades. There is even a new species of finch on the Galapagos. This game will be played on a large map on a table or the floor.
Kind of unrelated: Would you be interested in a speculative evolution on an alien planet thread? I would like to make one, but I don't want to be the only person there/it to be abandoned.

[MathAndCode]

For your mechanism to work, we need entirely random reproduction, as you said. I guess we're going to ignore stuff like sexual selection and homophily that could cause non-random reproduction in this case. But there still could be other things like two different populations of a species living in two different habitats. Also, a minor correction: speciation can happen within a few ten thousand years.

If I remember correctly, Neanderthals and modern humans were separated for hundreds of thousands of years, and humans today of European descent are 3–5% Neanderthal by DNA (i.e. Neanderthals and modern humans were still able to interbreed after hundreds of thousands of years of genetic isolation)—even though Europe and Africa would have had different evolutionary pressures. However, I just remembered that most species have shorter reproductive cycles (i.e. fewer years separating adjacent generations) than hominids, so maybe that's why I have been thinking that speciation takes longer than you thought it takes.

Sometimes it can happen in a matter of decades. There is even a new species of finch on the Galapagos.

I've been defining two populations to be of separate species if gene flow between them is impossible. (For the most part, defining two populations to be of separate species if organisms from different populations cannot produce fertile offspring together works, but there is some pair of related species of rice (I think) where first-generation hybrids are fertile, but the offspring from the hybrids, whether with another hybrid or with a purebred member of either species, are always sterile.) Yes, black-and-white definitions like that don't account for all of the nuances in biology, but for our purposes, where the player can control the big-picture mating behavior of his/her species, that definition works. Using that definition, the fact that two individuals of different species were able to mate and produce a continuous line of progeny indicates that the two species were actually the same species (again, only for our purposes). Therefore, it would be natural to assume that the hybrids could theoretically have offspring with purebred members of either original population; while they do have different mating behaviors, this would not be a problem in our game because the player could simply enforce random mating.

This game will be played on a large map on a table or the floor.

Would the map be standardized, or would players be able to use any map? Also, what proportion of the Earth's surface area would the map likely span, and how much geographic/environmental diversity would there be?

Kind of unrelated: Would you be interested in a speculative evolution on an alien planet thread? I would like to make one, but I don't want to be the only person there/it to be abandoned.

I would be interested as long as the environment isn't too similar to that of Earth (including the historical environment) so as to become boring/seem pointless.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

If I remember correctly, Neanderthals and modern humans were separated for hundreds of thousands of years, and humans today of European descent are 3–5% Neanderthal by DNA (i.e. Neanderthals and modern humans were still able to interbreed after hundreds of thousands of years of genetic isolation)—even though Europe and Africa would have had different evolutionary pressures. However, I just remembered that most species have shorter reproductive cycles (i.e. fewer years separating adjacent generations) than hominids, so maybe that's why I have been thinking that speciation takes longer than you thought it takes.

I found a reddit thread from 6 years ago, and people have differing ideas on the matter:

Yes, natural selection occurs on a generational basis. An individual organism doesn't change, a population does.

In a dynamic environment, organisms must constantly adapt to be able to survive (theoretically, if an environment never changed and an organism was perfectly suited to it, then it would never need to change). Due to variations in DNA due to reproduction, animals can be born with characteristics that make it better, worse, or unchanged in its adaptation to its environment.

i.e. Let's consider if we took a population of animals that lived in an area with lots of low hanging fruit, then moved them into an area with lots more high hanging fruit. If an animal was born with a slightly longer neck than its competition, it would be able to eat higher-hanging fruit, which would increase its likelihood to be healthy enough to reproduce, thereby passing those genes on than its peers, who must compete with each other for the lower-hanging fruit. If that population of animals reproduced every year and their young matured into adults in a year, then it would take less time for that population to develop long necks than if they reproduced every 2 years and their young matured into adults in 2 years.

For this reason we usually notice more dramatic changes in insects (i.e. the peppered moth) and microbial organisms (i.e. anti-biotic resistant bacteria) than large animals with long reproductive cycles (i.e. elephants), because of the time it takes for those populations to change.

Evolution = Δ gene frequency / Δ generation. Slow reproducing organisms have faster evolution because they are exposed to more selection, mutation, and drift before producing the next generation.

Example:

Let's say that there is a purple allele in a population of asexual bacteria. All purple bacteria have a 60% chance of dying every day and non purple have a 30% chance of dying every day. We have two populations; one population splits every day, and the other splits every other day, doubling in number.

We'll start with a population of 100 purple (P) and 100 non-purple (p). The allele frequency is 50% purple.

Daily splitting population:

Generation 1: We start with 100 P and 100 p. At the end of day 1, we have 40 P and 70 p

Generation 2: doubles to 80 P and 140 p. Allele freq = 36% purple. At the end of day 2, we have 32 P and 98 p

Generation 3: doubles to 64 P and 196 p. Allele freq = 25% purple. At the end of day 3, we have 26 P and 137 p

Generation 4: doubles to 51 P and 274 p. Allele freq = 16% purple. At the end of day 4, we have 20 P and 192 p

Generation 5: doubles to 41 P and 384 p. Allele freq = 10% purple.

As you can see, the change in allele frequency from each generation to the next is 14%, 12%, 9%, and 6%.

Every-other day splitting population:

Generation 1: We start with 100 P and 100 p. At the end of day 1, we have 40 P and 70 p At the end of day 2, we have 16 P and 49 p

Generation 2: doubles to 32 P and 98 p. Allele freq = 25% purple. At the end of day 3, we have 13 P and 69 p At the end of day 4, we have 5 P and 48 p

Generation 3: doubles to 10 P and 96 p. Allele freq = 10% purple.

As you can see, the change from each generation to the next is 25% and 15%.

Notice that the actual allele frequency between each population is the same at the end of 4 days. However, evolution is actually happening faster in the population which reproduces every other day, because it has the same amount of change in 2 generations, rather than 4. In fact, it's evolving twice as fast! This is because this is an example of a selective pressure which occurs at a constant rate with respect to time, as opposed to one which occurs at a constant rate with respect to each generation. If the selection event only happened a set number of times per generation, rather than per day, then the faster reproducing population would evolve at the same rate (per generation) as the slower reproducing population, yet the faster one would evolve more in a shorter timespan because it would go through twice as many generations. There are many examples of this type of selection, for example, if birds have a 50% chance of hatching, then it doesn't matter how many years they live before breeding, they still had a 50% chance of dying before hatching. Or, if two populations of mice breed at 11 and 15 months, respectively, but both experience decreased immune function during their 3rd month of life. Another would be bacteria that survive 100%, but purple ones only successfully split 60% of the time. Those are just some examples to give you an idea.

I've been defining two populations to be of separate species if gene flow between them is impossible. (For the most part, defining two populations to be of separate species if organisms from different populations cannot produce fertile offspring together works, but there is some pair of related species of rice (I think) where first-generation hybrids are fertile, but the offspring from the hybrids, whether with another hybrid or with a purebred member of either species, are always sterile.) Yes, black-and-white definitions like that don't account for all of the nuances in biology, but for our purposes, where the player can control the big-picture mating behavior of his/her species, that definition works. Using that definition, the fact that two individuals of different species were able to mate and produce a continuous line of progeny indicates that the two species were actually the same species (again, only for our purposes). Therefore, it would be natural to assume that the hybrids could theoretically have offspring with purebred members of either original population; while they do have different mating behaviors, this would not be a problem in our game because the player could simply enforce random mating.

That's a good definition. You say that the player can enforce random mating, but we haven't come up with a way to make this a rule or incentivise players to do it. Otherwise there is nothing stopping players from dividing their species and, as you said earlier, turning them into prey for one another and the like.

Would the map be standardized, or would players be able to use any map? Also, what proportion of the Earth's surface area would the map likely span, and how much geographic/environmental diversity would there be?

I didn't actually think too much about the map until now. I guess there could be structures like mountain ranges, lakes/inland seas, rivers, plateaus etc. Plate tectonics is a little too complex for this game, so we're not having that. You would change the habitats based on the current global/local climate. I think a standardised map is better, but I don't really see any reason why someone shouldn't make a custom map.

I would be interested as long as the environment isn't too similar to that of Earth (including the historical environment) so as to become boring/seem pointless.

I was already thinking of making the planet a super-Earth.

[BokaBB]

Hello,what are you doing here?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[BokaBB]

To make more things to think about I will make a prototype of the game.
Rise of Civilizations (I doubt that name isn't already used,any suggestions accepted) is a very complex and interesting game that simulates the rise of civilizations. It originally begins nearly indentically as Tribes except that warring is allowed. However,this game has a big difference:players continue to exist in the game as their people even after conquest. They can rebel from their rulers and try to make a state on their own. There should be some situations where it is impossible to rebel but I need other's help there. The subjugated people will assimilate through time if they don't rebel and the player may lose if they are completely assimilated.
The game progresses from the Neolithic Age through the civilised ages and the making colonies in the Solar System and ultimately ending with either only one player surviving or if one player conquers all of Earth and the Solar System and ultimately makes a colony in the nearest system to us.
It should be played on 2 maps:one of them being either iidentical to Earth or slightly different and the other having our Solar System and Alpha Centauri system on it. Earth must solely be represented on the first map and the fights at Earth will happen there in the later phase.
I wish the game to be mostly strategic in nature altrough some luck shall be present to prevent the game from being solved (altrough I think it can still be solved then,altrough probability should be used and still luck can sometimes make a win).
I think this game deserves at least the equal amount of attention as Schaparelio's game and I hope it will get it.
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[MathAndCode]

That's a good definition. You say that the player can enforce random mating, but we haven't come up with a way to make this a rule or incentivise players to do it. Otherwise there is nothing stopping players from dividing their species and, as you said earlier, turning them into prey for one another and the like.

Each mutation that the player chooses applies to a random member of the player's species, so if the two populations become separated, then neither population will get all of the mutations that the player wants. Also, if the player tries to make one population a predator species and the other population a prey species, then mutations intended for the predators could go to the prey, or vice versa.

Hello,what are you doing here?

We're discussing how to address the potential for speciation in the species board game.

[BokaBB]

That's a good definition. You say that the player can enforce random mating, but we haven't come up with a way to make this a rule or incentivise players to do it. Otherwise there is nothing stopping players from dividing their species and, as you said earlier, turning them into prey for one another and the like.

Each mutation that the player chooses applies to a random member of the player's species, so if the two populations become separated, then neither population will get all of the mutations that the player wants. Also, if the player tries to make one population a predator species and the other population a prey species, then mutations intended for the predators could go to the prey, or vice versa.

Hello,what are you doing here?

We're discussing how to address the potential for speciation in the species board game.

Can you help in my new game?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[MathAndCode]

Can you help in my new game?

I looked at your description, and I don't have any ideas for it at the moment.

[BokaBB]

Can you help in my new game?

I looked at your description, and I don't have any ideas for it at the moment.

No problem. Just to make you things to think about later,should there be some cards in the game?How would assimilation work?When the rebellions wouldn't be possible?
Please check my game Parts!
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Preliminary rules for a game

First of all, Rise of Civilizations is a mobile game. Second of all, I think rebellion should always be able to happen if people aren't happy with whoever is leading them. I also don't think the game needs to be competitive, it can be cooperative. You can have joint wins between people if they reach the end goal together.

Each mutation that the player chooses applies to a random member of the player's species, so if the two populations become separated, then neither population will get all of the mutations that the player wants. Also, if the player tries to make one population a predator species and the other population a prey species, then mutations intended for the predators could go to the prey, or vice versa.

Ok, that makes sense. I think we should come up with the habitats now.

[BokaBB]

Preliminary rules for a game

First of all, Rise of Civilizations is a mobile game. Second of all, I think rebellion should always be able to happen if people aren't happy with whoever is leading them. I also don't think the game needs to be competitive, it can be cooperative. You can have joint wins between people if they reach the end goal together.

Each mutation that the player chooses applies to a random member of the player's species, so if the two populations become separated, then neither population will get all of the mutations that the player wants. Also, if the player tries to make one population a predator species and the other population a prey species, then mutations intended for the predators could go to the prey, or vice versa.

Ok, that makes sense. I think we should come up with the habitats now.

The name is not a problem.
I think technology should be related with cards like in your game,altrough it should all somehow lead to civilization.
Or would be a constant order but I don't know.
How assimilation should happen?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[Schiaparelliorbust]

The name is not a problem.
I think technology should be related with cards like in your game,altrough it should all somehow lead to civilization.
Or would be a constant order but I don't know.
How assimilation should happen?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

I think there should be a pressure not to cause one's own demise. Stuff like nuclear weapons, disease, famine, war and climate change should all happen. I also don't really like this whole idea of assimilation. It's not entirely realistic. What does each player control anyway? Is it like a group of people or a country or a single person?

[BokaBB]

The name is not a problem.
I think technology should be related with cards like in your game,altrough it should all somehow lead to civilization.
Or would be a constant order but I don't know.
How assimilation should happen?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

I think there should be a pressure not to cause one's own demise. Stuff like nuclear weapons, disease, famine, war and climate change should all happen. I also don't really like this whole idea of assimilation. It's not entirely realistic. What does each player control anyway? Is it like a group of people or a country or a single person?

Initially everyone rules a country. If a player's country or its part is conquered then they control their people in that country. Assimilation is indeed realistic I think. However,I agree that some degree of cooperation between players can and should exist.
All the big civilizations in the world (even those in America) originated on the bans of rivers.I think that should also be the case here. However,it will make further difficulties with making a map,that should either be fixed or changeable but rivers then should be either constant or we are going to need to invent a new,complex way.
Neutral territories in the game should be ruled by primitive tribes or be unhabitated. Players can conquer them,altrough there should exist some way to make that slow and to prevent rapid expansion. Expansion by sea should also be possible once players unlock it.
What do you think?What are your ideas for this game?Can you help?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Initially everyone rules a country. If a player's country or its part is conquered then they control their people in that country. Assimilation is indeed realistic I think. However,I agree that some degree of cooperation between players can and should exist.
All the big civilizations in the world (even those in America) originated on the bans of rivers.I think that should also be the case here. However,it will make further difficulties with making a map,that should either be fixed or changeable but rivers then should be either constant or we are going to need to invent a new,complex way.
Neutral territories in the game should be ruled by primitive tribes or be unhabitated. Players can conquer them,altrough there should exist some way to make that slow and to prevent rapid expansion. Expansion by sea should also be possible once players unlock it.
What do you think?What are your ideas for this game?Can you help?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

The biggest problem with assimilation is that a country can be conquered or destroyed, but most of the people stay. You shouldn't automatically lose in that case. You can still control the people. And I guess you mean river banks. RApid expansion is actually pretty normal. America's westward expansion happened pretty quickly.

[BokaBB]

Initially everyone rules a country. If a player's country or its part is conquered then they control their people in that country. Assimilation is indeed realistic I think. However,I agree that some degree of cooperation between players can and should exist.
All the big civilizations in the world (even those in America) originated on the bans of rivers.I think that should also be the case here. However,it will make further difficulties with making a map,that should either be fixed or changeable but rivers then should be either constant or we are going to need to invent a new,complex way.
Neutral territories in the game should be ruled by primitive tribes or be unhabitated. Players can conquer them,altrough there should exist some way to make that slow and to prevent rapid expansion. Expansion by sea should also be possible once players unlock it.
What do you think?What are your ideas for this game?Can you help?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

The biggest problem with assimilation is that a country can be conquered or destroyed, but most of the people stay. You shouldn't automatically lose in that case. You can still control the people. And I guess you mean river banks. RApid expansion is actually pretty normal. America's westward expansion happened pretty quickly.

Yes,but not always. It should be slower if technology level is lower.
Yes,you don't lose since you can rebel. What actions the conquered player should be doing?Do we have to conquer all of the country to end the war or not?
Yes,I meant banks,just accidentally dropped k.
Can you please help me with that part?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Yes,but not always. It should be slower if technology level is lower.
Yes,you don't lose since you can rebel. What actions the conquered player should be doing?Do we have to conquer all of the country to end the war or not?
Yes,I meant banks,just accidentally dropped k.
Can you please help me with that part?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

That first one is kind of obvious, but it shouldn't only be technology. Stuff like superior animals or infectious diseases can help.I am in no way advocating anything like this in real life. 90% of Native Americans were killed by diseases that they had no immunity against like smallpox. How do you even lose in a game like this? If by controlling a country you mean controlling its people, then the only way to lose is by your enemies committing genocide against you. But if it's just the country then even a simple annexation can cause you to lose.

quoting so you can come here

Some habitats:
Sandy desert
Rainforest
Temperate forest
Tundra
Cold desert

Oceanic habitats should have layers like intertidal, sunlight, twilight, midnight and abyssal. Deeper layers should depend more on shallower layers because food comes from above. I'm going to make the speculative evolution on an alien planet thread now.

[MathAndCode]

Some habitats:
Sandy desert
Rainforest
Temperate forest
Tundra
Cold desert

Should their be mountain ranges? I don't think that they would be a problem as long as they have passes or are otherwise penetrable.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Should their be mountain ranges? I don't think that they would be a problem as long as they have passes or are otherwise penetrable.

I already said that we would have them. They could be barriers for clouds, so would house deserts behind them.

I guess there could be structures like mountain ranges, lakes/inland seas, rivers, plateaus etc. Plate tectonics is a little too complex for this game, so we're not having that.

[BokaBB]

Yes,but not always. It should be slower if technology level is lower.
Yes,you don't lose since you can rebel. What actions the conquered player should be doing?Do we have to conquer all of the country to end the war or not?
Yes,I meant banks,just accidentally dropped k.
Can you please help me with that part?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

That first one is kind of obvious, but it shouldn't only be technology. Stuff like superior animals or infectious diseases can help.I am in no way advocating anything like this in real life. 90% of Native Americans were killed by diseases that they had no immunity against like smallpox. How do you even lose in a game like this? If by controlling a country you mean controlling its people, then the only way to lose is by your enemies committing genocide against you. But if it's just the country then even a simple annexation can cause you to lose.

quoting so you can come here

Some habitats:
Sandy desert
Rainforest
Temperate forest
Tundra
Cold desert

Oceanic habitats should have layers like intertidal, sunlight, twilight, midnight and abyssal. Deeper layers should depend more on shallower layers because food comes from above. I'm going to make the speculative evolution on an alien planet thread now.

Both the native and conquering player have a degree of control. We shall estabish who controls what.
In the case of genocides one can simply migrate. Also,genocides should be very,very costly,progressively more as the technology level rises(because I think players amass resources and have more with technology and time). Conquered people should slowly assimilate,altrough I don't know how exactly.
How to make civilizations begin on the river coasts?Also,what resources and/or money should exist?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

[MathAndCode]

I already said that we would have them. They could be barriers for clouds, so would house deserts behind them.

Should we start creating the map?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Should we start creating the map?

Okay. Should there be a supercontinent or not?

[MathAndCode]

Okay. Should there be a supercontinent or not?

Yes. I think that the land should be connected so that all of the different land species can interact.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Yes. I think that the land should be connected so that all of the different land species can interact.

Sounds good, though there should be a few islands. Where is the supercontinent centered? I say equator and stretching north-south for a variety of climates.

[BokaBB]

Yes,but not always. It should be slower if technology level is lower.
Yes,you don't lose since you can rebel. What actions the conquered player should be doing?Do we have to conquer all of the country to end the war or not?
Yes,I meant banks,just accidentally dropped k.
Can you please help me with that part?
Have a good day!

BokaBB

That first one is kind of obvious, but it shouldn't only be technology. Stuff like superior animals or infectious diseases can help.I am in no way advocating anything like this in real life. 90% of Native Americans were killed by diseases that they had no immunity against like smallpox. How do you even lose in a game like this? If by controlling a country you mean controlling its people, then the only way to lose is by your enemies committing genocide against you. But if it's just the country then even a simple annexation can cause you to lose.

quoting so you can come here

Some habitats:
Sandy desert
Rainforest
Temperate forest
Tundra
Cold desert

Oceanic habitats should have layers like intertidal, sunlight, twilight, midnight and abyssal. Deeper layers should depend more on shallower layers because food comes from above. I'm going to make the speculative evolution on an alien planet thread now.

Both the native and conquering player have a degree of control. We shall estabish who controls what.
In the case of genocides one can simply migrate. Also,genocides should be very,very costly,progressively more as the technology level rises(because I think players amass resources and have more with technology and time). Conquered people should slowly assimilate,altrough I don't know how exactly.
How to make civilizations begin on the river coasts?Also,what resources and/or money should exist?
Have a good day!

BokaBB