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### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **July 11th, 2019, 6:52 am**

by **Macbi**

wildmyron wrote:LaundryPizza03 wrote:A power surge killed all my LLS searches.

That is very unfortunate. The lack of check-pointing in LLS is a significant drawback to using it for hard search problems.

Do any of the common SAT solvers offer this feature? If they do then I'll try to support it in LLS.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **July 11th, 2019, 12:58 pm**

by **AforAmpere**

LaundryPizza, can you post what search parameters failed for those speeds and what you were running? That would help if any of us try to find those speeds.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **July 16th, 2019, 2:52 am**

by **LaundryPizza03**

For the (7,1)c/8 it was a box 11 cells long, 20 cells wide, and population no more than 20. I don't recall the paramaters for any of the other searches, but my guess for 12c/31d would be a square box, 16 cells on a side, with population 3 cells.

EDIT: The 12c/31d search was actually in an 18*18 box and had D2\ symmetry.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **July 16th, 2019, 2:59 am**

by **LaundryPizza03**

I have also decided that I am running too many searches in LLS right now. I decided to outsource my searches for period multiples of c/2 diagonal with population 4 cells. For simplicity, I have assumed that the ships are glide-symmetric and exist in rules with B2ac/S1, but you can certainly search without.

Specifically, I am looking for:

- 18c/36d, 13*13 bounding box (smallest unknown multiple)
- 19c/38d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 5 cells)
- 20c/40d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 13 cells)

Oddly, both high-period c/2d searches at the 5s thread seemed to strongly favor odd period multiples of c/2 diagonal, e.g. 21c/42d.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **July 19th, 2019, 9:23 am**

by **wildmyron**

wildmyron wrote:LaundryPizza03 wrote:I now request that it be carried out for finding spaceships of the following speeds for 5s:

- (7,1)c/8
- 12c/31d
- (7,3)c/17
- 12c/20 (3 cells)

(There were two more searches, but I forgot what they were.)

<snip>

I'll have a go at the 12c/31d.

Unfortunately the computer I was running this on had a forced update before the solver completed

LaundryPizza03 wrote:- 18c/36d, 13*13 bounding box (smallest unknown multiple)
- 19c/38d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 5 cells)
- 20c/40d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 13 cells)

I posted 4-cell ships of the first two to the 5S thread

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **July 19th, 2019, 3:02 pm**

by **LaundryPizza03**

wildmyron wrote:
LaundryPizza03 wrote:- 18c/36d, 13*13 bounding box (smallest unknown multiple)
- 19c/38d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 5 cells)
- 20c/40d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 13 cells)

I posted 4-cell ships of the first two to the 5S thread

Where? I don't see them.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 1:47 am**

by **wildmyron**

LaundryPizza03 wrote:wildmyron wrote:
LaundryPizza03 wrote:- 18c/36d, 13*13 bounding box (smallest unknown multiple)
- 19c/38d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 5 cells)
- 20c/40d, 14*14 bounding box (current record is 13 cells)

I posted 4-cell ships of the first two to the 5S thread

Where? I don't see them.

As I mentioned to you elsewhere, I'd included them in a previous update to the 5S project but didn't get around to posting them to the thread. For the record:

18c/36 diagonal, 4 cells

Code: Select all

```
x = 3, y = 3, rule = B2ac3cr4jnrty5-jnr6eik/S1e2n3cjk4-crwy5ceiry6ik7
o2$3o!
```

19c/38 diagonal, 4 cells

Code: Select all

```
x = 3, y = 3, rule = B2acn3ky4eintwyz5ajry6i7e/S01e3ciqy4eyz5aejnq6k7e
o2$3o!
```

4-cell examples of 20c/40, 21c/42, and 22c/44 diagonal were recently posted to the 5S thread. 23c/46 currently has a 5-cell example. Have you tried the 4-cell search for that speed or higher periods?

wildmyron wrote:wildmyron wrote:I'll have a go at the 12c/31d.

Unfortunately the computer I was running this on had a forced update before the solver completed

I reran the search with cadical and it completed in 15 hours, as opposed to the longer than 1 week I had glucose-syrup running for (with 4 threads)! Posted to the 5S thread.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 2nd, 2019, 8:54 pm**

by **CoolCreeper39**

Can someone search for oscillators or spaceships in Seeds (B2/S)?

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 2nd, 2019, 9:51 pm**

by **LaundryPizza03**

CoolCreeper39 wrote:Can someone search for oscillators or spaceships in Seeds (B2/S)?

Which ones? Perhaps a c/6 orthogonal forerake matching

this?

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 3rd, 2019, 12:10 am**

by **CoolCreeper39**

LaundryPizza03 wrote:CoolCreeper39 wrote:Can someone search for oscillators or spaceships in Seeds (B2/S)?

Which ones? Perhaps a c/6 orthogonal forerake matching

this?

Yes.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 5th, 2019, 1:29 am**

by **LaundryPizza03**

CoolCreeper39 wrote:LaundryPizza03 wrote:CoolCreeper39 wrote:Can someone search for oscillators or spaceships in Seeds (B2/S)?

Which ones? Perhaps a c/6 orthogonal forerake matching

this?

Yes.

Hmm... I am getting the same nonsense in LLS as the last person who tried c/6o.

Code: Select all

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0 h1 h2 h3 h4 h5 h6 h7 h8 h9 h10 h11 h12 h12 h11 h10 h9 h8 h7 h6 h5 h4 h3 h2 h1 0
0 i1 i2 i3 i4 i5 i6 i7 i8 i9 i10 i11 i12 i12 i11 i10 i9 i8 i7 i6 i5 i4 i3 i2 i1 0
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0 t1 t2 t3 t4 t5 t6 t7 t8 t9 t10 t11 t12 t12 t11 t10 t9 t8 t7 t6 t5 t4 t3 t2 t1 0
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0 g1 g2 g3 g4 g5 g6 g7 g8 g9 g10 g11 g12 g12 g11 g10 g9 g8 g7 g6 g5 g4 g3 g2 g1 0
0 h1 h2 h3 h4 h5 h6 h7 h8 h9 h10 h11 h12 h12 h11 h10 h9 h8 h7 h6 h5 h4 h3 h2 h1 0
0 i1 i2 i3 i4 i5 i6 i7 i8 i9 i10 i11 i12 i12 i11 i10 i9 i8 i7 i6 i5 i4 i3 i2 i1 0
0 j1 j2 j3 j4 j5 j6 j7 j8 j9 j10 j11 j12 j12 j11 j10 j9 j8 j7 j6 j5 j4 j3 j2 j1 0
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0 m1 m2 m3 m4 m5 m6 m7 m8 m9 m10 m11 m12 m12 m11 m10 m9 m8 m7 m6 m5 m4 m3 m2 m1 0
0 n1 n2 n3 n4 n5 n6 n7 n8 n9 n10 n11 n12 n12 n11 n10 n9 n8 n7 n6 n5 n4 n3 n2 n1 0
0 o1 o2 o3 o4 o5 o6 o7 o8 o9 o10 o11 o12 o12 o11 o10 o9 o8 o7 o6 o5 o4 o3 o2 o1 0
0 p1 p2 p3 p4 p5 p6 p7 p8 p9 p10 p11 p12 p12 p11 p10 p9 p8 p7 p6 p5 p4 p3 p2 p1 0
0 q1 q2 q3 q4 q5 q6 q7 q8 q9 q10 q11 q12 q12 q11 q10 q9 q8 q7 q6 q5 q4 q3 q2 q1 0
0 r1 r2 r3 r4 r5 r6 r7 r8 r9 r10 r11 r12 r12 r11 r10 r9 r8 r7 r6 r5 r4 r3 r2 r1 0
0 s1 s2 s3 s4 s5 s6 s7 s8 s9 s10 s11 s12 s12 s11 s10 s9 s8 s7 s6 s5 s4 s3 s2 s1 0
0 t1 t2 t3 t4 t5 t6 t7 t8 t9 t10 t11 t12 t12 t11 t10 t9 t8 t7 t6 t5 t4 t3 t2 t1 0
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
```

Code: Select all

```
x = 26, y = 21, rule = B2/S
5b2o5b2o5b2o2$4bo2bo3bo2bo3bo2bo3$5b2o5b2o5b2o2$4bo2bo3bo2bo3bo2bo3$5b
2o5b2o5b2o2$4bo2bo3bo2bo3bo2bo3$5b2o5b2o5b2o2$5bobo3bo2bo3bobo$6bob3ob
2ob3obo$b4o16b4o$o6bo2bo4bo2bo6bo!
```

Changing all instances of f5 to 0 returns UNSAT. Anyone have any other ideas?

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 5th, 2019, 2:19 am**

by **LaundryPizza03**

Run this object in searchRule-matchPatt2.py, matching 12 generations:

Code: Select all

```
x = 5, y = 3, rule = B2cen3q4ekqrt5-ajry6ek7/S02ci3-ejnr4-cekz5-kqy6eik7
o3bo$o$2bobo!
```

It's a bit slow for me.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 5th, 2019, 3:05 am**

by **LaundryPizza03**

wildmyron wrote:I'm not sure about the correctness either, but gfind does seem to work for speeds between c/2 and c. At light speed gfind can only find p1 photons. I ran a gfind search for 9c/10 in B2acn3aenr4-cinq5aek6cin7e8/S12i3-cnr4kqwy5ckny6-e78. The search tree seems to just completely peter out beyond about 7 rows, by which I mean that increasing the search width (up to the maximum of a full width of 55) results in almost no increase to the maximum depth reached (which was about 70, or 7 rows).

To find such a ship I can see two possibilities:

1) Scan the rulespace where this frontend works and hope that a gfind search in one of those candidate rules turns up a result. This would require a bit of work to polish ntgfind to a point where it can be programmatically run without being manually built for every rule (and also adapting the get_all_iso_rules script to ignore the chaos at the back of the ship).

2) Adapt LLS to simplify iterated searching for successively longer partials (a bit like ikpx, but not so rigid).

Here, convert this to an LLS search:

Code: Select all

```
x = 47, y = 53, rule = B2acn3aenr4-cinq5aek6cin7e8/S12i3-cnr4kqwy5ckny6-e78History
12.2B12D21B$12.2B12DBA19B$12.2B12D2A4B5A10B$12.2B12D2ABA2BA3BA10B$12.
2B12DB4A3BAB2A9B$12.2B12DA2BA4BA2BA9B$12.2B12D2ABA2BABA12B$12.2B12DB
2A3B2ABABA9B$6.3E3.2B12DB2AB2A15B$5.E3.E2.2B12DBA4BA4BA9B$5.E2.2E2.2B
12DA3BA4BA11B$5.E.E.E2.2B12DABA2BAB2AB2A9B$5.2E2.E2.2B12DA3BA4BA11B$
5.E3.E2.2B12DBA4BA4BA9B$6.3E3.2B12DB2AB2A15B$12.2B12DB2A3B2ABABA9B$
12.2B12D2ABA2BABA12B$12.2B12DA2BA4BA2BA9B$12.2B12DB4A3BAB2A9B$12.2B
12D2ABA2BA3BA10B$12.2B12D2A4B5A10B$12.2B12DBA19B$12.2B12D21B2$26.E2$
26.E2$26.E2$12.11B12D12B$12.11B12DBA10B$12.11B12D2A4B5AB$12.11B12D2AB
A2BA3BAB$12.11B12DB4A3BAB2A$12.11B12DA2BA4BA2BA$12.11B12D2ABA2BABA3B$
12.11B12DB2A3B2ABABA$.E4.3E3.11B12DB2AB2A6B$2E3.E3.E2.11B12DBA4BA4BA$
.E3.E2.2E2.11B12DA3BA4BA2B$.E3.E.E.E2.11B12DABA2BAB2AB2A$.E3.2E2.E2.
11B12DA3BA4BA2B$.E3.E3.E2.11B12DBA4BA4BA$3E3.3E3.11B12DB2AB2A6B$12.
11B12DB2A3B2ABABA$12.11B12D2ABA2BABA3B$12.11B12DA2BA4BA2BA$12.11B12DB
4A3BAB2A$12.11B12D2ABA2BA3BAB$12.11B12D2A4B5AB$12.11B12DBA10B$12.11B
12D12B!
```

where green = live, dark blue = dead, and red = unknown.

If there is a ship with length less than 24, it will come out as SAT. Else, try

Code: Select all

```
x = 46, y = 53, rule = B2acn3aenr4-cinq5aek6cin7e8/S12i3-cnr4kqwy5ckny6-e78History
12.C12D21B$12.C12DBA19B$12.C12D2A4B5A10B$12.C12D2ABA2BA3BA10B$12.C12D
B4A3BAB2A9B$12.C12DA2BA4BA2BA9B$12.C12D2ABA2BABA12B$12.C12DB2A3B2ABAB
A9B$6.3E3.C12DB2AB2A15B$5.E3.E2.C12DBA4BA4BA9B$5.E2.2E2.C12DA3BA4BA
11B$5.E.E.E2.C12DABA2BAB2AB2A9B$5.2E2.E2.C12DA3BA4BA11B$5.E3.E2.C12DB
A4BA4BA9B$6.3E3.C12DB2AB2A15B$12.C12DB2A3B2ABABA9B$12.C12D2ABA2BABA
12B$12.C12DA2BA4BA2BA9B$12.C12DB4A3BAB2A9B$12.C12D2ABA2BA3BA10B$12.C
12D2A4B5A10B$12.C12DBA19B$12.C12D21B2$25.E2$25.E2$25.E2$12.10C12D12B$
12.10C12DBA10B$12.10C12D2A4B5AB$12.10C12D2ABA2BA3BAB$12.10C12DB4A3BAB
2A$12.10C12DA2BA4BA2BA$12.10C12D2ABA2BABA3B$12.10C12DB2A3B2ABABA$.E4.
3E3.10C12DB2AB2A6B$2E3.E3.E2.10C12DBA4BA4BA$.E3.E2.2E2.10C12DA3BA4BA
2B$.E3.E.E.E2.10C12DABA2BAB2AB2A$.E3.2E2.E2.10C12DA3BA4BA2B$.E3.E3.E
2.10C12DBA4BA4BA$3E3.3E3.10C12DB2AB2A6B$12.10C12DB2A3B2ABABA$12.10C
12D2ABA2BABA3B$12.10C12DA2BA4BA2BA$12.10C12DB4A3BAB2A$12.10C12D2ABA2B
A3BAB$12.10C12D2A4B5AB$12.10C12DBA10B$12.10C12D12B!
```

where off-white = don't care.

If you find an additional segment, repeat similar searches with the newly extended partial, and continue until you come up with a ship or are unable to complete the partial. (I would do this myself, but composing the search will be too tedious, especially trying to reproduce the frontend exactly.)

(It would be interesting to see this idea implemented as an automated script...)

How would we determine the rulespace of this partial (and the shorter one mentioned earlier in 5s):

Code: Select all

```
x = 4, y = 21, rule = B2-in3-ain4einqtz5-eij6cen7/S02an3jnqry4ijkqrty5-ekn6ai7c8
bo$obo$b2o$o$bobo$2bo$obo$bobo$2b2o$bo$b3o$bo$2b2o$bobo$obo$2bo$bobo$o
$b2o$obo$bo!
```

The alternative would be to find a 9c/10o directly, at a width greater than 21, perhaps what you are already doing.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 5th, 2019, 4:56 am**

by **wildmyron**

LaundryPizza03 wrote:<snip nested quote>

LaundryPizza03 wrote:CoolCreeper39 wrote:Can someone search for oscillators or spaceships in Seeds (B2/S)?

Which ones? Perhaps a c/6 orthogonal forerake matching

this?

Hmm... I am getting the same nonsense in LLS as the last person who tried c/6o.

I would suggest that a c/6 forerake is particularly ambitious - and what's more you are searching for a triple forerake. However, I wouldn't call the original result you got nonsense - it's a perfectly valid solution to the search problem.

LaundryPizza03 wrote:Changing all instances of f5 to 0 returns UNSAT. Anyone have any other ideas?

I would suggest JLS or WLS for this search problem. Here's a partial for a single barrelled c/6 forerake from JLS:

Code: Select all

```
x = 19, y = 26, rule = B2/S
16bo$10bo$10bobobo3bo$8b3o4bob2o$16bo$6bobo6bo$8bo3bo$5b2o6bo$13b3obo$
2bo11b2o$bo3bob2obob2o$4b2obo10bo$o13b2obo$o13b2obo$4b2obo10bo$bo3bob
2obob2o$2bo11b2o$13b3obo$5b2o6bo$8bo3bo$6bobo6bo$16bo$8b3o4bob2o$10bob
obo3bo$10bo$16bo!
```

Unfortunately it can't be extended at that width and I suspect it would need to be a fair bit wider to find a solution (but I might be wrong).

How about something less ambitious - like c/3 orthogonal or c/4 orthogonal - it seems as though no one has found one of those. For reference, there is a c/3 orthogonal in B2/S0

(p6, width 29, odd bilateral symmetry)
LaundryPizza03 wrote:<snip details of 9c/10 partial spaceship extension method>

(It would be interesting to see this idea implemented as an automated script...)

Well, that was precisely what I meant. I have no intention of attempting to manually extend the partial further - I'm fairly sure an automated process would be required to get deep enough into the search space.

LaundryPizza03 wrote:How would we determine the rulespace of this partial (and the shorter one mentioned earlier in 5s):

Code: Select all

```
x = 4, y = 21, rule = B2-in3-ain4einqtz5-eij6cen7/S02an3jnqry4ijkqrty5-ekn6ai7c8
bo$obo$b2o$o$bobo$2bo$obo$bobo$2b2o$bo$b3o$bo$2b2o$bobo$obo$2bo$bobo$o
$b2o$obo$bo!
```

By modification to the rulespace finding script (or functions within sss.py) which would only require that the front-most rows (or columns in this case) of the partial spaceship match under the modified rules. To be a bit more specific, consider the following code from the getRuleRangeElems function in sss.py:

Code: Select all

```
# Record behavior of pattern in current rule
clist = []
poplist = []
for i in range(0,period):
g.run(1)
clist.append(g.getcells(g.getrect()))
poplist.append(g.getpop())
finalpop = g.getpop()
```

Instead of the line "clist.append(g.getcells(g.getrect()))" a pre-determined selection rectangle should be used to determine which cells are copied into "clist". And then that same rectangle should be used when testing if the pattern evolves the same in each modified rule. It would probably make sense for the rect to be per generation specific, particularly for frontends moving as fast as this one.

LaundryPizza03 wrote:The alternative would be to find a 9c/10o directly, at a width greater than 21, perhaps what you are already doing.

Perhaps, but the 9c10 search I previously mentioned is still running and I'm no more hopeful of it finishing prior to either the machine it's running on losing power or being forced to reboot, or me giving up on it.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 12th, 2019, 11:54 pm**

by **fluffykitty**

LaundryPizza03 wrote:If you find an additional segment, repeat similar searches with the newly extended partial, and continue until you come up with a ship or are unable to complete the partial.

[...]

(It would be interesting to see this idea implemented as an automated script...)

I think calcyman already did this with ikpx.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 13th, 2019, 12:22 am**

by **wildmyron**

fluffykitty wrote:LaundryPizza03 wrote:If you find an additional segment, repeat similar searches with the newly extended partial, and continue until you come up with a ship or are unable to complete the partial.

[...]

(It would be interesting to see this idea implemented as an automated script...)

I think calcyman already did this with ikpx.

Indeed, that is pretty much ikpx's algorithm, with some clever interleaving of the rows and columns from the individual phases in the representation of the partial spaceship. However, it is CGoL only, so the conversion to SAT problem would need to be replaced with something like the one that LLS uses for isotropic rules

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 14th, 2019, 8:51 pm**

by **Hdjensofjfnen**

LaundryPizza03 wrote:A power surge killed all my LLS searches.

Usually laptops are immune to those, right? (I agree with Macbi, though: that's a huge bummer, especially with the LLS searches spanning days or weeks.)

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 15th, 2019, 11:39 pm**

by **phdanielli**

is this rule searchable?

Conquerors and Colonizers (B2ace3acei4ace5acei6ace/S)

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4087&p=81297#p81297

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 16th, 2019, 12:07 am**

by **LaundryPizza03**

Definitely not. Your scribble in the linked post produces a dot agar that expands to infinity.

Very few rules beginning with B2a are apgsearchable, since patterns tend to expand at the speed of light. If you do want to search such a rule, you could begin with B2ac3q/S0 or a close variant.

### Re: Requests for Searches - Non-apgsearch

Posted: **August 20th, 2019, 12:14 am**

by **LaundryPizza03**

Does this pattern become a spaceship in some rule (matching at least 6 generations)?

Code: Select all

```
x = 8, y = 8, rule = B2cin3ai4ky5ae6e/S23-a5a6e
2bobo$b3obo$3o3bo$bo5bo$o5bo$bo5bo$2bobo$3bo!
```

B2cin3ai4y5ace6e/S2-i3-ae5a6e - B2cin3aiqy4-cejr5-q678/S23-a4-cn5-cejk678

If a spaceship exists, it is likely to travel at a high period multiple of c/3 diagonal. The smallest undiscovered period is 87.