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Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 14th, 2017, 8:42 pm
by BlinkerSpawn
AforAmpere wrote:I believe that p1 is the max, because otherwise B1e or B1c must be used in some direction, and any direction that B1c is used in will have cells that keep going in that direction, so B1c in any direction is out. Also, if B1c is out, B1e is out too, because without B1c, there is nothing to prevent more births from new cells, like this, but any direction works the same:

Code: Select all

x = 1, y = 1, rule = B1e/S
o!
Well, there's always this:

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x = 1, y = 1, rule = B012345678/S
o!

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 14th, 2017, 9:01 pm
by Saka
BlinkerSpawn wrote: Well, there's always this:

Code: Select all

x = 1, y = 1, rule = B012345678/S
o!
Maybe you meant

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x = 1, y = 1, rule = B0/S
o!

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 14th, 2017, 9:34 pm
by GUYTU6J
How to build a spaceship from interacting puffers?For example,

Code: Select all

x = 131, y = 94, rule = B3-jq6a78/S2e3-qy4-city56a
bo$3o$b2o$bobo$2b3o3$8b2o$9b2o3$15b2o$8bo6b2o$7b3o$7bob2o$8b2o11b2o$8b
obo10b2o$9b2o$13b2o$12b2o13b2o$27b2o2$19b2o$18b2o13b2o$33b2o2$25b2o$
24b2o13b2o$39b2o2$31b2o$30b2o13b2o$45b2o3$51b2o$51b2o3$57b2o$57b2o3$
63b2o$63b2o3$69b2o$69b2o3$75b2o$75b2o3$81b2o$81b2o3$87b2o$87b2o3$93b2o
$93b2o3$99b2o$99b2o3$105b2o$105b2o3$111b2o$111b2o2$117bo$117b3o$117b2o
2$111b2obo$110b4o9b2o$111b3o9b2o3$129b2o$118b2o9b2o$119b2o3$124b2o$
125b2o!

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 15th, 2017, 9:00 am
by BlinkerSpawn
GUYTU6J wrote:How to build a spaceship from interacting puffers?
Basically it all revolves around nondestructive interaction: finding ways that two (or three) puffers can interact to produce less debris than usual, or none, if you're lucky. Then, look at your available debris options and see which (if any) can be easily cleaned up by one or more additional puffers. Repeat cleanup as often as necessary.


As far as this rule is concerned, certain transitions (most notably the lack of B3jq and the existence of the majority of S45) make cleanup next to impossible, even before considering the non-sparkiness of the puffer engine itself and the fact that its spark is on the wrong side relative to its trail.

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 15th, 2017, 7:53 pm
by toroidalet
An easy way is to look for interactions with the ash and other engines in various phases.
If need be, you can change the rule to make it work. For example, with this puffer you can easily clean up its barges using the sparks it produces:

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x = 24, y = 45, rule = B3-ej/S234i
13bo$12b3o$11bo2bo2$12bo$13b3o$14bobo$11bo3bobobo$11bo6b2o$12b2obobobo
$7b3o6bo$7bobo$7bobo$5bo$5b2o5$10bo$9bobo$10bo2$19bo$3o2bo12bobo$o2b2o
14bo$2o2bo2$b3o10$12b3o$12bobo$12bo9bo$11bo2bob2o3bobo$11bo5bo4bo$13b
2ob2o$15bo!
or you can change the rule resulting in a cleaner puffer with easier to clean debris:

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x = 20, y = 13, rule = B3-ej4e/S234i
2ob2o$2ob2o4$2bo$b3o$bobo$o3bo$b2o2b2o10b3o$2bo3b2o8bo2bo$2bob3o12bo$
3bobo11b2o!
In this case, there's a nearby rule where it is a ship:

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x = 6, y = 3, rule = B2k3-jq6a78/S2e3-qy4-city56a
o$2ob3o$3o!
A nice trick is to find the minimum and maximum rules where a puffer's engine repeats at the speed you want it to and modify transitions that change the pulses of ash. If you don't have patience then you can just change all the transitions, one at a time.

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 20th, 2017, 10:59 am
by toroidalet
muzik wrote:Not exactly that one, but that definitely works as expected. I think the one I remembered was orthogonal.
I think I've got it:

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x = 3, y = 3, rule = B2e3-ry4cq5i/S23-a4t5r7
3o$2bo$b2o!

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 22nd, 2017, 3:57 pm
by muzik
I should probably start a thread for those.



What should we call these types of oscillators?

Code: Select all

x = 3, y = 4, rule = tlife
2o$2o$2o$2bo!

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x = 3, y = 4, rule = B36ce7c_S23-y
o$2o$2bo$b2o!
I would be hesitant to label them as reflectorless rotating oscillators, as despite the fact they fit the name perfectly all the definitions I have seen for RRO require that it keep a large distance from the centre of its bounding box, whilst these mainly focus around the centre of gravity. I would call these types of oscillators solar systems.

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 22nd, 2017, 4:31 pm
by Rhombic
muzik wrote:I should probably start a thread for those.



What should we call these types of oscillators?

Code: Select all

x = 3, y = 4, rule = tlife
2o$2o$2o$2bo!

Code: Select all

x = 3, y = 4, rule = B36ce7c_S23-y
o$2o$2bo$b2o!
I would be hesitant to label them as reflectorless rotating oscillators, as despite the fact they fit the name perfectly all the definitions I have seen for RRO require that it keep a large distance from the centre of its bounding box, whilst these mainly focus around the centre of gravity. I would call these types of oscillators solar systems.
Why not "rotating oscillators"?

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 22nd, 2017, 10:57 pm
by dvgrn
Rhombic wrote:
muzik wrote:What should we call these types of oscillators?
...
I would call these types of oscillators solar systems.
Why not "rotating oscillators"?
It's going to be a tough job getting a new term into common use, and "rotating oscillators" has the disadvantage that it's confusing -- there's no clear reason why you can't say "reflectorless", since these oscillators are in fact reflectorless.

The simplest thing we can do is to start calling these things "rotating reflectorless oscillators", and change the definition of reflectorless rotating oscillator on the LifeWiki.
Calcyman wrote:There is the additional constraint that two non-interacting copies of the pattern could be combined into a oscillator with a period equal to exactly half of that of the component oscillators.
This seems to me to be clearly wrong, now that I look at it -- it's too specific. If we ever found one of these things that supported three non-interacting copies of the pattern, but not two (which seems perfectly possible) there would be absolutely no reason we wouldn't want to call it a "reflectorless rotating oscillator".

So if "two" is wrong, then is "two or more" right? Or is one copy enough? Seems to me one copy ought to be enough. The RROs that muzik posted are perfectly good reflectorless rotating oscillators.

(There, I said it. Anyone want to say it with me? If enough people say it we can go ahead and change the LifeWiki definition.)
dvgrn wrote:Historically the additional constraint has sometimes been added, that it must be possible to combine two non-interacting copies of the pattern into a oscillator with a period equal to exactly half of that of the component oscillators.

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 23rd, 2017, 9:55 am
by muzik
Maybe we should aIso label them as reflectorless rotating oscillators, but categorise them by how many times you can successfully loop them?

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 23rd, 2017, 10:21 am
by dvgrn
muzik wrote:Maybe we should aIso label them as reflectorless rotating oscillators, but categorise them by how many times you can successfully loop them?
That seems like a good plan. The short form could be "1x RRO", "2x RRO", ... "8,12x RRO", though I'm not sure how you translate that into words. "Reflectorless rotating oscillator where eight copies or twelve copies can fit in the loop, dividing the period by eight or twelve respectively" seems kind of long, but above 1x the part about getting a lower-period oscillator is important.

For example, this discovery by drc is definitely an RRO --

Code: Select all

x = 30, y = 26, rule = B3/S23-a4i5i6ci
bo25bo$3o23b3o$25b2o2bo$o25b2obo2$5b3o20bo$4b2ob2o$3bobob2o$3bo3bo$4bo
2bo$4b3o19b3o$26b2o10$13bo$13bobo3bo$10b2obobo3b2o$14b3o3b2o$15bo3b2o!
-- but it's not a 3x RRO, even though three copies can fit in the loop, because the period doesn't get reduced. (Really this is a 4x RRO, but for this example just pretend that four copies don't quite fit.)

Doesn't seem like there will be any need to list all factors in most cases -- "12x RRO" implies "1,2,3,4,6,12x RRO". However, it doesn't necessarily imply "8,12x RRO", because 8x only reduces the period if the full period is 12N for even N. The soldier bug is period 12*46=552, so 8x happens to work.

There might be very weird cases where the copies support each other at some periods but fail catastrophically at other periods. Seems like the hypothetical "support" cases wouldn't actually quite be RROs, though, any more than a quarter of a galaxy is an RRO.

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 23rd, 2017, 11:59 am
by muzik
Where would "reflectorless flipping oscillators" fit into this mix?:

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x = 2, y = 5, rule = salad
o$o$2o$bo$bo!
I also seem to recall an object which resembled all of the loopable RROs, but was a RFO, and existed in a rule similar to CommonRepl.

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 12:08 pm
by Rhombic
Has a non-trivial endemic oscillator or spaceship been discovered?
by endemic I mean that absolutely no other isotropic rule has the osc/spaceship

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 12:39 pm
by AforAmpere
I'm pretty sure the Spaghetti Monster is an example, it works in no other rules than Life

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 12:45 pm
by drc
Gemini

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 5:56 pm
by muzik
Are these oscillators or spaceships in any rules?

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
bo$4o$2bo$4o$bo!

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x = 5, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
b2obo$3obo$o$5o$b4o!

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
b2o$3o2$4o$b3o!

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 7:25 pm
by toroidalet
muzik wrote:Are these oscillators or spaceships in any rules?
The first one's trivial:

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x = 4, y = 5, rule = B7e/S0123456-i78
bo$4o$bo$4o$bo!

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 7:56 pm
by A for awesome
muzik wrote:Are these oscillators or spaceships in any rules?

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
bo$4o$2bo$4o$bo!

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
b2obo$3obo$o$5o$b4o!

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
b2o$3o2$4o$b3o!

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x = 4, y = 5, rule = B4a7/S24
bo$4o$2bo$4o$bo!

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 5, rule = B6-k7/S012345-k6-ce7c
b2obo$3obo$o$5o$b4o!

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 5, rule = B1e3a/S245
b2o$3o2$4o$b3o!

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 11:08 am
by gameoflifemaniac
When creating a rule table, you have to write transitions, written as for example a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j (where a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j are variables). j is the after state of the middle cell, but what is the order of the other cells? I mean, which cell is cell a, which cell is cell b, which cell is cell c etc.?

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 11:12 am
by drc
gameoflifemaniac wrote:When creating a rule table, you have to write transitions, written as for example a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j (where a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j are variables). j is the after state of the middle cell, but what is the order of the other cells? I mean, which cell is cell a, which cell is cell b, which cell is cell c etc.?
C, N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, C'

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: August 1st, 2017, 7:43 am
by Rhombic
I remember someone posted some kind of genealogy system for the rules explored on Catagolue.
1) Where was that post?
2) Is there any hope to update it, making more closely related rules closer in the graph (or equivalent)?
3) And make rules with more objects on Catagolue bigger on the graph, but that's a side note.

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: August 2nd, 2017, 4:08 pm
by muzik
Does there exist a rule where c/2 spaceships cannot exist, but every single speed up to that can?

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: August 2nd, 2017, 4:12 pm
by drc
muzik wrote:Does there exist a rule where c/2 spaceships cannot exist, but every single speed up to that can?
I'm pretty sure JustFriends is like that (although I might be wrong)

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: August 2nd, 2017, 6:22 pm
by muzik
Can this thread please be stickied, just like its General Discussion counterpart?

Re: Thread for basic non-CGOL questions

Posted: August 3rd, 2017, 7:56 am
by BlinkerSpawn
drc wrote:
muzik wrote:Does there exist a rule where c/2 spaceships cannot exist, but every single speed up to that can?
I'm pretty sure JustFriends is like that (although I might be wrong)
There might be a suitable modification of the all-orthogonal speeds rule that caps at c/2 but I'm not sure exactly how to go about that.