Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

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Tezcatlipoca
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Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » September 18th, 2014, 5:05 pm

Over the past week, I have been deeper into shapeloop for longer than any one should probably ever care to be. But the shapes, my many loops mainly the product of careful selection of "mutations" have pleased and excited me. There were times I could have sworn I was looking under a microscope. It's rather amazing at all that simple selection of certain traits can lead to higher prevalence within the population. I don't know that it will be extraordinary to anyone who has spent a lot of time in shapeloop (I'm guessing here, let me know if it's not the case. I'm on an island as far as shapeloop experimentation other than this forum) but I thought I would share a little bit on my experiences.

I haven't taken proper notes for the most part, but some offhand examples of what I've been seening: development of many "self replicators" all starting from the basic loop some one kindly gave me. I've seen things develop and stabilize like varieties of "weapons", beams of different types and directions. I'm seen myriad stable body forms. For instance, indifference to chirality, quickly evolved after breeding in an environment where the grid was often subject to mirror transforms. Adaptations to environmental obstacles such as artificial walls or deactivated loops happen quickly though they are not always immediately recognizable as I'll explain later. (Though notably, I have not seen on many adaptations to life in proximity of other loops--easily observable level at least, analysis of the "genetics" before and after may tell a different story.) Colony formation has evolved. On the individual level lots of inhibitors and other interfacing mechanisms or seeming behaviors have arisen and become locked in. There are some emergences--some of the self destructing interfaces--that don't seem to make sense on the surface. At first I was quick to chalk it up to limitations of the patterns or the rules at simulating something like life. But multiple times now I've noticed when I'm watching carefully step by step on an individual level, that the trait provides on a very rare occasion an advantage or provide an advantage by "close kin" who share most of their genes. That's just one example of what has become a frequent experience over the last week--I have long studied biology, evolution and genetics. Never have I been so in touch (and humbled by) the principles at play in evolution as watching this simulation. (willing to share some of my specific insights connected, but for brevity's sake, only if there's interest)

Also, I've seen radial symmetry. And tantalizing hints at segmentation or modularization; "incorporation" events where some of the genetic material or the loop itself is incorporated into the body of another. As of yet this has failed to provide a significant advantage overall. However, this is only when I'm looking on the individual scale in real time that I even catch these events. I'm certain it happens more often and perhaps even those providing a localized advantage that is choked out by the sheer number of surrounding simpler organisms. At first I thought I thought I was close only two or three days in to development of such remarkable complexity, but instead I have been reminded of the scale of the history of life.

Life went on for something like 1.5 billion years before one of those events took place (providing significant advantage to proliferate and get "locked in") to give rise to the Eukaryotes. That means I should get comfortable I guess! As much as I've managed in a week just sinking time into it, It makes me wonder if I shouldn't put feelers out for somebody with access to substantial computing resources (do contact me if you are reading and have become curious). Now, at this point you might reasonably ask me, "aren't you freaking out a little bit and super-imposing some very abstract real world things on a looping pattern." Well, I don't know. If any one cares to discuss, I'll share the data; maybe you can tell me what you think. It should all be exactly repeatable, which is nice. I guess all I know is that so far there is a large and quickly growing amount of evidence convincing me that shapeloop or something like it is capable of simulating a complex system such as life, in important ways. It's still litter better than a hunch, and I judge by some topics of conversation here, much of the mathematics of CA do and will elude me for the most part. So if your knowledge of systems of mathematics suggests that complexity of a certain level should be unobtainable, please do chime in and let me know. Right now I'm led to think there are lots of places this line of experimentation could go. Exciting ones are things like actually seeing this trend continue to very obviously "life-analogous" complexity. If that were the case, one might be able to harness such research to predict important things in Systems or Biology or some other field.

One specific experiment I want to run is how long it takes this complex system to arise from noise and compare that to known data of how long life proper and other systems took to arise. Not a random fill exactly but we'd assume an environment filled with the precursors of life in the system (shapeloop folks, think random sequences of red, greens, yellow, blues adhered to a gray back) these would take the place that "oceans full of amino acids" took in our own.

Beyond simple observation of traits, I have started watching the their genetic code evolve. I'm just getting my feet wet, but I recently begun doing some deconstruction and analysis of the code, throughout it's evolution. It's very interesting and already is leading me to a stronger understanding of this little world, the structures, the code and such. It may even allow me to leap frog to some of the more interesting complexity. I've begun to create some simple machines (like a "gear" that takes a central signal and alters the space between repeats; just about to start a another discussion on that).

Well, that's all for now. I hope if anyone's interested they'll contact me or chime in here. Thanks! I'll leave you with this little guy. Pay special attention to how not only the genetic code itself but also the way it's folded around the backbone. The nature of the backbone does store and convey meaningful information related to its structure (the start of a Shapeloop epigenonme?!). Observe it in it's starting position on the left. Now observe the same code on the right without the meaningful sequence it stores as metadata.

Code: Select all

x = 25, y = 24, rule = shapeloop
7$7.3AC$7.A2HA$7.AHJ4A$5.BFDHJ3HA$5.D2H2.2JHA$5.AJ2HJHBDA$5.3ACJHF$5.
G2.A2HD$8.4A!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » September 18th, 2014, 10:39 pm

@Tetzcatlipoca: You mean like this?

Code: Select all

x = 26, y = 18, rule = shapeloop
7.2C$8.3DHA$10.CDH2ACHCA$10.ACHA2H4CA$9.3DHA5BHCA$8.3A2C4D2ACHC$6.C.C
H2CABHAD5HC$5.CH2BDHDCHD5C2HAC$3.2B.2CHDADCA4HA3HAHC$3B3.B2HDHA3B4H2C
B3HC$7.B3HBAHD4H3BD3H$7.D2HAHB2DAHBHBC4HC$7.D2HA2C4H2B4CHC$4.5HCDCH2C
AH5DCHC$4.2C5H4BCDC2A2CBC$6.3C2H2.D4.2C3B$9.2H9.2BD$21.2D!
The right-turn signals and the left-turn signals almost instantly form clumps, so if an arm evolved it probably would destroy itself.

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Tezcatlipoca
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » September 19th, 2014, 12:57 am

That's interesting that such a thing has code moving. around Nothing that complex yet I'm afraid. I'm still trying to make that hard jump that early biology took from simple little cells to more significant stuff. I was thinking more like this:

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 4, rule = shapeloop
2C3AEDBA3$B4A3DA!
See if an arm hits a sequence like that just right it can build under it with State 8 or 9, which ever the arm bottom is.


Right now, I'm going to try to focus on helping it along creating simple machines, coding them and then putting the code sequences out there where they can accidentally incorporate it. I'm working on that "gear box" or what ever you'd call it right now. Got to build it first then I'll have to code it. Which is non trivial... worth a try though I suppose.

Code: Select all

x = 37, y = 21, rule = shapeloop
33.3A$33.2HA$2A2C8A2C7A13.HAH$A19HA13.HAH$AH17.HC13.HAH$A2H16.HC13.HA
H$3AC8A2CA4.HA13.HAH$A2.C10HA4.HA13.HAH$A2.AH9.A4.HA13.HAH$A2.AH9.A4.
HA13.HAH$A2.AH3.3J3.A4.HA13.HAH$A2.AH2.J7A4.HA13.HAH$A2.AH2.JA2.C2HA
4.HA13.HAH$A2.AH2.J3AC2HA4.HA13.HAH$A2.AH3.4J.HA4.HC13.HAH$A2.A10HA4.
HC13.HAH$A2.2C8A2C4.HA13.HAH$A18.HA13.2AH$A19HA13.ACH$4A2C8A2C9A2C8AC
$21.14H!


Happen to know how I might get that left side working, or is it an impossible problem? That's one thing that's really holding me back, I can't figure out how to get two signals two feed together reliably. I'm gathering a whole little workshop, which maybe somebody will get some use out of(you'll notice my various almost rube goldbergian failures so far for working two feeds together reliably). Let's see how much text this is going to be... I'll be proud when I need to use a paste bin... Now many of these structures, especially all the "hooks", I discovered in the wild and they were stabilized for the most part which makes me believe they are being utilized in some way, even those I have not seen yet demonstrated.

"Workshop":

Code: Select all

x = 43, y = 95, rule = shapeloop
$34.3A$34.2HA$.C8A2C8A2C13.HAH$.C19HA13.HAH$.AH17.HA13.HAH$.A2H16.HA
13.HAH$.9A2C4A4.HA13.HAH$.A2.A10HA4.HA13.HAH$.A2.AH9.A4.HA13.HAH$.A2.
CH9.A4.HA13.HAH$.A2.CH3.3J3.A4.HA13.HAH$.A2.AH2.J7A4.HC13.HAH$.A2.AH
2.JA2.A2HA4.HC13.HAH$.A2.AH2.J2C2A2HC4.HA13.HAH$.A2.AH3.4J.HC4.HA13.H
AH$.A2.A10HA4.HA13.HAH$.A2.3A2C7A4.HA13.HAH$.C18.HA13.2AH$.A19HA13.2A
H$.7A2C8A2C3A2C8A2C2A$22.14H2$2.6H$2.HFB7ABFD5ABFD5ABFD$2.HD4.A21HA$
2.HA4.DH19.HA$2.HA4.FH19.HA$2.HA3.ABF19.HA$2.HA3.AHD19.HA$2.HA3.3A19.
HB$2.HB25.HF$2.HF25.HD$2.HD4.22HA$2.H5ADFB5ADFB5ADFB4A$2.6HA$7.HA$7.H
A2$11.2H$8.3HABFH$6.2H4A.D8HI$6.BFD4.AHABFD3A2HI$5.HA6.3A5.2AB3H$4.H
2A16.FD2AH$3.IHA9.8H3.AH.BA$3.HDA9.HD5ABFB2A.DFH$2.HBF10.HF6.D3H.AHI$
2.HA11.HB4.3A4.AH$2.H2A10.HA4.AHD4.AH$3.H2A9.HA4.ABF4.AH$4.HD9.HA11.A
H$4.BF9.HA11.BH$3.HA10.HA11.FH$3.H2A9.HD8.3AD$4.HA9.HF8.A2HF$4.HA9.HB
5ADFBA2.AH$4.HDF8.11H2.AH$5.HB21.BH$5.H3A15.3ADFH$6.2H2AD13.A3H2I$7.I
2HFB5ADF4.BAH$9.I8HB.2ADFH$17.H3A3H$18.3H4$2.3H$.HCBCH$.HBHB.H9.ACA$.
HCBCBCBCBCBCB2.C7HIHIHIH$2.11HC2.ACACACACACACACH$6.6AHB.HC8.H.AHAH$
12.BCACA9.HCACH$27.3H$3.4A$3.A2HA3.4A$3.AHJ5A2HA$.3AHJ2HJ2A2H5A5.I2H$
.AH2J.I2H2A6HA5.HDBDH$.A3HJHA3CH2.3HA6.B.BH$.4AJHA2.2J2.H3A5.ADHDA$4.
A2HA.6HA7.HB.BD$4.12A7.HDBDH$7.A16.3H$7.A$6.HA$16.17H$5.3H7.HABABABAB
ABABABABAH$4.HDADH6.HB10J.H.BHBH$4.HAHA.H5.H8A5.HABAH$4.HDADADADADADA
DA11.3H$5.12H.H!

c0b0p0
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » September 20th, 2014, 7:11 pm

Tezcatlipoca wrote:Happen to know how I might get that left side working, or is it an impossible problem?
It is probably impossible, since in

Code: Select all

x = 10, y = 3, rule = shapeloop
HA8H$H5AC3A$HAH!
the green signal is not duplicated. It is possible, however, in my loop rule, GoucherParticleLoop. There is also a simple pattern in that rule that generates the state you seem to be looking for, shown below. It even generates loop-like patterns.

Code: Select all

x = 99, y = 156, rule = GoucherParticleLoop
54.E9$54.J$54.A4$54.B$54.A4$54.B$54.A4$54.J$54.A45$.53F.24F4.F$.F77.
4F.2F$.F84.F$.F85.F$.F86.F$.F87.F$.F88.F$.F88.F$.F89.F$.F89.F$F91.F$F
91.F$F92.F$F92.F$F25.C67.F$F26.AJ26.F39.F$F25.B68.F$F25.A69.F$F96.F$F
25.B70.F$F25.A71.F$F97.F$.F24.B70.F$.F24.A70.F$.F94.F$.F24.B69.F$.F
24.A69.F$.F94.F$.F24.B68.F$.F24.A68.F$.F93.F$.F24.B68.F$.F24.A67.F$2.
F91.F$2.F23.B67.F$2.F23.A67.F$2.F91.F$2.F23.B67.F$2.F22.CA.BA.BA.BA.B
A.BA.BA.BA.BA.BA40.F$2.F51.C39.F$2.F90.F$2.F90.F$2.F90.F$2.F90.F$2.F
90.F$2.F89.F$2.F89.F$3.F88.F$3.F88.F$4.F87.F$5.F85.F$6.F84.F$7.F83.F$
8.F82.F$9.F81.F$10.F80.F$10.F80.F$11.F78.F$12.F77.F$13.F76.F$14.F75.F
$15.F74.F$16.F73.F$17.2F70.F$19.F69.F$20.F67.F$21.F66.F$22.F64.F$23.F
63.F$24.F60.2F$25.F57.2F$26.F54.2F$27.F51.2F$28.F48.2F$29.F44.3F$30.
2F40.2F$32.2F36.2F$34.2F32.2F$36.F30.F$37.2F26.2F$39.F23.2F$40.F20.2F
$41.2F16.2F$43.2F12.2F$45.3F7.2F$48.7F!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » January 31st, 2015, 10:01 pm

c0b0p0 wrote:The right-turn signals and the left-turn signals almost instantly form clumps, so if an arm evolved it probably would destroy itself.
A slight modification makes a wick in which the signal types do not form clumps.

Code: Select all

x = 32, y = 18, rule = shapeloop
A12.2C$14.3DHA$16.CDH2ACHCA$16.ACHA2H4CA$15.3DHA5BHCA$14.3A2C4D2ACHC$
12.C.CH2CABHAD5HC$11.CHCBDHDCHD5C2HAC$9.2B.CBHDADCA4HA3HAHC$6.3B3.B2H
DHA3B4H2CB3HC$13.B3HBAHD4H3BD3H$13.D2HAHB2DAHBHBC4HC$13.D2HA2C4HCB4CH
C$10.5HCDCH2CAH5DCHC$10.2C5H4BCDC2A2CBC$12.3C2H2.D4.2C3B$15.2H9.2BD$
27.2D!
If the wick collides with something at the right time and an arm is produced, there is a probability of .0000128 that the loop below will get formed, since the loop below has only 7 cells that are not part of the wick.

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 8, rule = shapeloop-ltd
GBCBCBCBC$.C6HB$.BH2.2IHC$.CH2.HDCB$.BH.2HC$.C2H3D$.BJHD$.CBFD!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » February 1st, 2015, 10:01 pm

In the self-replicator competition thread, I found the much simpler loop below.

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 7, rule = shapeloop
6.G$7D$D5HD$D2H2.HD$DFDH.HD$2.DHIHD$2.CBC2D!

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Tezcatlipoca
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » February 11th, 2015, 9:37 pm

c0b0p0 wrote:If the wick collides with something at the right time and an arm is produced, there is a probability of .0000128 that the loop below will get formed,
It's so good to see this suspicion borne out! Have you played anymore or done further investigation in shapeloop? There are other structures and multi-loop configurations that I suspect must under certain circumstances provide important advantage. Some of them I have seen demonstrated, a few of them I have caught for review, but some I have not seen demonstrated. Today I found this new juncture "in the wild". I have yet come to fully understand it or attribute it any real significance, but it's new to me anyway--sort of the center of a figure-8:

Code: Select all

x = 37, y = 29, rule = shapeloop
.3H$HABAH$IBHCH21.11H$HACDH21.H2ADFB4AH$IB.H22.HA7.AH$HAH23.HA7.DH$HB
25.A7.FH$HA.7H17.2AB5.BH$HBABABABAH17.AHF5.AH$HA6.BH17.2AD5.AH$HB6.AH
ACA14.HA6.AH$HA6.B.CH15.HA6.AH$HB6.AHA5H11.HA6.AH$HABABABABACACACH12.
A6.DH$6HAHA5.AH5.7HB6.FH$BABABAB.B5.CH5.H5ADFD5ABH$7.HA5.AH5.HB5.B8H$
7.HB5.CH5.HF5.A$7.HABABABAH5.HD5.AH$7.6H.CH5.HA5.AH$14.AH5.HA5.AH$14.
CH5.HA4.D2A$14.AH5.HA4.FHA$12.H.CI5.HA4.B2A$11.HACAH5.HB6.A$11.HCHCI
5.HF6.AH$11.HACAH5.HD6.AH$12.3H6.H5ABFDH$21.10H!
So if we can isolate and understand more of these specific cases that encourage complexity through coding for phenotypic traits that modulate replication ability, we could potentially bring back ways to improve the ruleset to encourage greater complexity overall and bring them back to fold into pi_guy's efforts or else branch the rule ourselves.

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Tezcatlipoca
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » February 11th, 2015, 9:43 pm

I think this connects to another discussion we could merge in for any one reading:

From: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1464
Tezcatlipoca wrote:I ran a little experiment to test whether they can come back from the dormant state with the unbacked arm, that would allow for at least the possibility that it is advantageous over being destroyed totally:

http://pastebin.com/JvwULdTJ

Shortly after the active pattern pushes into the second box you will see one of the loops with the unbacked arm become reactivated and start producing offspring.

Any ideas on how I might better test the question of whether it really is "selection" for genes that favor this behavior or just a quirk from the ruleset's state behaviors?

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by pi_guy314 » February 12th, 2015, 5:03 pm

Tezcatlipoca wrote: Today I found this new juncture "in the wild". I have yet come to fully understand it or attribute it any real significance, but it's new to me anyway--sort of the center of a figure-8:

Code: Select all

x = 37, y = 29, rule = shapeloop
.3H$HABAH$IBHCH21.11H$HACDH21.H2ADFB4AH$IB.H22.HA7.AH$HAH23.HA7.DH$HB
25.A7.FH$HA.7H17.2AB5.BH$HBABABABAH17.AHF5.AH$HA6.BH17.2AD5.AH$HB6.AH
ACA14.HA6.AH$HA6.B.CH15.HA6.AH$HB6.AHA5H11.HA6.AH$HABABABABACACACH12.
A6.DH$6HAHA5.AH5.7HB6.FH$BABABAB.B5.CH5.H5ADFD5ABH$7.HA5.AH5.HB5.B8H$
7.HB5.CH5.HF5.A$7.HABABABAH5.HD5.AH$7.6H.CH5.HA5.AH$14.AH5.HA5.AH$14.
CH5.HA4.D2A$14.AH5.HA4.FHA$12.H.CI5.HA4.B2A$11.HACAH5.HB6.A$11.HCHCI
5.HF6.AH$11.HACAH5.HD6.AH$12.3H6.H5ABFDH$21.10H!
I don't think there's that much significance in this pattern. Both circuits are very bulky with unnecessary wires and there are more simpler patterns that can release the same signal.

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Tezcatlipoca
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » February 12th, 2015, 6:19 pm

I don't think there's that much significance in this pattern.
Yes, I couldn't find anything useful to do with it, but it does something funny...

Is it large enough for you to see in my avatar on the right? Maybe if you squint.... This juncture is mixing two feeds together. It is imperfect but it is happening. It is happening in both places where this juncture is present, but it is more clearly demonstrated on the outside. You will see the signal at the juncture comes together obtains a red from each side and continues traveling as 2 reds.

I always thought that some loops were managing just a little bit to insert information into other loops. I am not certain but I wonder if this does not demonstrate that is likely true. If it happens it is very finicky and would be hard to use in building loops, but loops like life seem to "find a way."

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » February 27th, 2015, 9:01 pm

Tezcatlipoca wrote:Yes, I couldn't find anything useful to do with it, but it does something funny...
Tezcatlipoca wrote:This juncture is mixing two feeds together. It is imperfect but it is happening.
A more visible way of mixing two feeds together is shown below. It uses your figure-eight juncture.

Code: Select all

x = 16, y = 27, rule = shapeloop
5.11H$5.H4ADFB2AH$5.HA7.AH$5.HB7.AH$6.F7.AH$6.CDB5.DH$6.AHA5.FH$6.3A
5.BH$6.HA6.AH$6.HA6.AH$6.HC6.AH$7.D6.AH$7HB6.AH$HFB9ABFDH$HD5.D8H$HA
5.F$HA5.BH$HA5.AH$HA5.AH$HA4.3A$HB4.AHA$HF4.DFB$HD6.A$HA6.AH$HA6.AH$H
3ABFD2AH$10H!
c0b0p0 wrote:In the self-replicator competition thread, I found the much simpler loop below.
Here is the simplest loop I have found. It has only 5 codons that are not part of the state 1 wick (which consists entirely of state 1). This breaks the previous record, posted on February 1, by 1 codon.

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 8, rule = shapeloop-ltd
G8A$.A6HA$.AH2.2IHA$.AH2.H3A$.AH.2HA$.A2HCBA$.AJHD$.2ADF!

c0b0p0
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » March 1st, 2015, 9:40 pm

Here is a simpler loop. It has the least number of codons that are not part of the state 1 wick.

Code: Select all

x = 6, y = 9, rule = shapeloop-ltd
4A$A2HA$AHI3A$FHI2HA$DH2JHA$C2H3A$BJHA$4A$G!

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Tezcatlipoca
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » March 1st, 2015, 10:06 pm

c0b0p0 wrote:Here is a simpler loop. It has the least number of codons that are not part of the state 1 wick.
Interesting! It's too bad that it doesn't form complex interactions with itself. It has a lot of room to take on information. The pattern it makes is also very dense. Let's see if it is a very competitive loop. I'll try it against some of the others.

Here is a loop I've just found. It is a two stage loop, that forms an "eye" but then dies. I was excited that it may become a nucleus, but no luck yet.

Code: Select all

x = 13, y = 11, rule = shapeloop2a-bounded
9.AFDA$9.A2HD$9.A2HA$G2AD3.ADC2HD$.AHB3.B2H.HA$.AHC3.DH2.HD$.CH2DABDH
2.HA$.AH.5J2.HD$.DH8.HA$.A10HD$.CADADADADADA!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » March 2nd, 2015, 6:57 pm

Tezcatlipoca wrote:Interesting! It's too bad that it doesn't form complex interactions with itself. It has a lot of room to take on information. The pattern it makes is also very dense. Let's see if it is a very competitive loop. I'll try it against some of the others.
The advantage of numbers must also be considered. The loop I posted yesterday has an advantage of at least 5 to 1 against any loop that has at least 5 codons that are not part of the state 1 wick, and in random soups it either outnumbers or has the same population as any other loop (on average).
Tezcatlipoca wrote:See if an arm hits a sequence like that just right it can build under it with State 8 or 9, which ever the arm bottom is.
I could not configure an arm in the way you described. Do you have an example pattern.

Here is an attempt to make the loop with gene pattern 6432 and perimeter 24 from as few cells as possible. It makes a malformed version of that loop which has too many copies of the genome.

Code: Select all

x = 15, y = 13, rule = shapeloop-ltd
7.HK$2.G$CDF$BHA$3A7$14.H$14.K!
{/code]

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Chesstiger2612 » March 2nd, 2015, 9:12 pm

I find the idea very interesting, I'd need to work into it first to be more detailed, but I could see a complexity cap limiting the potential because of only having two dimensions to work with, contrary to the real world where life did spawn somehow. It could be possible still to simulate it two-dimensional, but I'm not quite sure as many mechanisms that are essential to life rely on the third dimension. Even if bigger systems can compensate the third dimensions' complexity, the chance of such a compensation 2D object "spawning naturally" could decrease.

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » March 2nd, 2015, 11:19 pm

Chesstiger2612 wrote:I find the idea very interesting


If you find this interesting, you should check out the early stages of the rule creation attempt we've just started to simulate life's fundamentals in a different way: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1639

I have to be honest though, after having played with shapeloop for much longer, I am conflicted about some of what I said in my first comment above. I am now confused about where the meaningful "genetic" change ends and complexity from random collision between shapes begins. I believe strongly psuedo-genetic change is happening, in fact I think c0b0p0 have isolated pretty strong evidence supporting that idea above, but I just don't know where the lines are.

I do now have a loop of some complexity that forms interesting interactions with itself and is stable over several days without becoming simpler or smaller.

Code: Select all

x = 10, y = 12, rule = shapeloop2a-bounded
5.ADAD$C2A2.DHJA$BHA2.A2HD$DHFDAD2HA$BH.4JHD$DH5.HA$AH5.HD$AH4J.HA$A
2HADADHC$A2HD2.AHA$C2HA2.DADG$ADAC!
I'm hoping that helps me answer some of those questions.

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Tezcatlipoca
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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » March 5th, 2015, 6:56 am

c0b0p0 wrote:in random soups it either outnumbers or has the same population as any other loop (on average).
You're generating random soups?! No wonder you have been getting such interesting results. I've been wanting to generate random assortments of "genes" for a while now. I thought I would have to create a rule with only states 1-6 and do random fills of a 1 x n area, then copy and paste meaningful results into a complete shapeloop rule.

Can you tell me of what nature of "soup" and what if anything you are using to create them? I don't know about soups yet...

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by Tezcatlipoca » March 5th, 2015, 9:24 pm

c0b0p0 wrote: Here is an attempt to make the loop with gene pattern 6432 and perimeter 24 from as few cells as possible.
Here is an interesting 2 state loop I found where a quite small loop (perimeter 16) forms a larger loop (perimeter 68). I believe the larger loop is actually "4D" if I understand this terminology correctly.

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 7, rule = shapeloop-ltd
3.G$3DC$FHJA$D2HA$B2HD$D2HD$4D!
To my knowledge this is the first time I have encountered a loop that codes the entirety of itself 4 times. I thought maybe 3 was the maximum. There is some room left over however. I wonder if 4 times is the upper boundary...

I have been playing with the small end of this loop. Hoping it would direct to me to a nucleus or complex loop with enclosed information. This is the closest I could get to enclosing a "nucleus" in a loop:

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 6, rule = shapeloop-ltd
2.K$BFD$AHFD$FDH2D$.FDHD$2.DCB!
I am not sure it's possible. What do you all think? I think it more likely to find it by "evolution" than by building however, so I am going to run this pattern for a long period.

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » March 22nd, 2015, 8:35 pm

Tezcatlipoca wrote: I have been playing with the small end of this loop. Hoping it would direct to me to a nucleus or complex loop with enclosed information. This is the closest I could get to enclosing a "nucleus" in a loop:
[viewersnipped]
I am not sure it's possible. What do you all think? I think it more likely to find it by "evolution" than by building however, so I am going to run this pattern for a long period.
Here is a simple way to enclose a "nucleus" in a loop.

Code: Select all

x = 36, y = 35, rule = shapeloop-ltd
G$5DF30D$D34HD$DH32.HD$DH32.HD$DH.32HD$BH.H26DB5D$DH.HD$DH.H13DB18D$D
H.32HD$DH32.HD$DH32.HD$DH.32HD$BH.H13DB18D$DH.HD$DH.H18DC13D$DH.32HD$
DH32.HD$DH32.HD$DH.32HD$DH.H32D$DH.HD$DH.H32D$DH.32HD$DH32.HD$DH32.HD
$DH.32HD$DH.H32D$BH.HD$DH.H32D$DH.32HD$DH32.HD$DH32.HD$D34HD$36D!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » March 31st, 2015, 6:29 pm

Tezcatlipoca wrote:I wonder if 4 times is the upper boundary...
Here is a loop which duplicates its gene pattern more than 4.5 times. (A perimeter 30 loop produces a perimeter 136 loop.)

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 9, rule = shapeloop
I2H$.DK3AD$3.A2HD$BDEAHJ3D$C3H.J2HD$DH2.2J2HD$DH2.HCDBC$B4HB$CDBC2A!
Tezcatlipoca wrote:You're generating random soups?!
I am not generating random soups to find the patterns I have been posting, but I am generating random soups to see what objects occur naturally and incorporate them in my "natural" loop production methods. For example, there is only one non-natural cluster in the last pattern I posted in this thread.
Tezcatlipoca wrote:Can you tell me ... what if anything you are using to create them?
Ctrl+5

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » April 6th, 2015, 9:21 pm

Here is a loop which duplicates its gene pattern more than 5 times. (A perimeter 30 loop produces a perimeter 156 loop, which is able to replicate forever.)

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 9, rule = shapeloop
I2H$.DK4A$3.E2HD$DCBDHJ3D$D3H.J2HD$BH2.2J2HC$CH2.HC2DB$D4HB$BCDBCD!
This object is yet another object that creates exactly one copy of itself and then dies, and it is the first of that kind in shapeloop.

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » April 7th, 2015, 9:45 pm

Here is a strange reaction that I found while running a random soup that changes the orientation of the sheath, thus potentially being able to enclose a "nucleus" within a loop. Interestingly enough, it only works with a left-turn signal.

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 17, rule = shapeloop
.HK$.HD$.HA$.HD$.HA$.HD$.HA$.HD$.IAI6$.I$BAB$2.H!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » April 8th, 2015, 8:58 pm

Here is a loop which duplicates its gene pattern exactly 6 times. (A perimeter 22 loop produces a perimeter 132 loop, which is able to replicate forever.)

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 6, rule = shapeloop-a
GCBDCBDC$.D2HJHJB$.BHI3HD$.C2HD2AE$.D2HC$.BCDB!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » April 10th, 2015, 10:14 pm

Tezcatlipoca wrote:I always thought that some loops were managing just a little bit to insert information into other loops. I am not certain but I wonder if this does not demonstrate that is likely true. If it happens it is very finicky and would be hard to use in building loops, but loops like life seem to "find a way."
Here is the typical way hybrid loops are created. Although the child loop looks the same as one of its parents, it is really different, as shown below.

Code: Select all

x = 22, y = 6, rule = shapeloop-ltd
C3DA2DF6.C3DA2DF$D6HD6.D6HA$CH2.2IHA6.CH2.2IHA$BH2.HDAD6.BH2.HDAC$C4H
A8.C4HA$2D3AD8.2D3AD!

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Re: Shapeloop progress; looking for simple machines, organelles

Post by c0b0p0 » April 12th, 2015, 10:42 pm

Here is the hybrid-loop-producing reaction that I thought I was posting in my previous post. The pattern I unintentionally posted was a comparison of the hybrid loop and one of the parent loops.

Code: Select all

x = 30, y = 12, rule = shapeloop-ltd
22.C3DA2DF$22.D6HD$22.CH2.2IHA$22.BH2.HDAD$22.C4HA$22.2D3AD$GE2ACABA
14.G$.DJ4HA$.A2H2.HA$.D2AH.HC$3.A3HA$3.ADC2D!
There are many hybrid-loop-producing reactions that generate loops that do not look like either of the parents. One of these is shown below.

Code: Select all

x = 30, y = 12, rule = shapeloop-ltd
22.BCDC3DA$22.C6HD$22.DH2.2IHD$22.DH2.HADF$22.A4HD$22.2ADADA$GE2ACABA
14.G$.DJ4HA$.A2H2.HA$.D2AH.HC$3.A3HA$3.ADC2D!

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