## Building a reverse caber-tosser

For discussion of specific patterns or specific families of patterns, both newly-discovered and well-known.

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Jormungant wrote:Just a silly question, is there a periodic constraint that disallow to use the following ? If not, I think it might be possible to reduce the need for glider turners and use p120 guns instead. And if we cant, we have 6 glider turners instead of 8 glider turners. I know that life hash loves power of 2, but the "minimal" example might not care.

Corderships are p64 when viewed from behind by a glider gun, and p128 when viewed from the front.
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calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

...and, even better, a GPSE produces an identical glider stream to a p256 gun, except it's edge-shooting.

We can probably build the PULL/DFIRE shotgun in about 9 gliders, and synthesise any pattern in fewer than 100.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

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Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:...and, even better, a GPSE produces an identical glider stream to a p256 gun, except it's edge-shooting.

We can probably build the PULL/DFIRE shotgun in about 9 gliders, and synthesise any pattern in fewer than 100.

Actually, I checked the 3-glider GPSE synthesis and it's really messy. So here's a slightly dirty 12-glider drop-in replacement of the existing shotgun, capable of being cleaned up using a few extra gliders:

`x = 2200, y = 2255, rule = B3/S2383bobo\$83b2o\$84bo27\$49bobo\$50b2o\$50bo\$69bo\$67b2o\$68b2o21\$70b3o\$70bo\$71bo\$2199bo\$2197b2o\$2198b2o27\$115bo\$116b2o\$115b2o2\$2182bobo\$2182b2o\$2183bo75\$30bo\$31bo\$29b3o1992\$2185b2o\$2185bobo\$2185bo72\$33b2o\$32bobo\$34bo\$2105b2o\$2104b2o\$2106bo11\$3o\$2bo\$bo!`

There might be a few kickback caveats necessary, but even then I'd be very surprised if we couldn't build a Caterpillar in < 100 gliders. It would actually improve on non-ridiculous-sized objects, such as Pipsquirter 1, which currently takes 264 gliders.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:Actually, I checked the 3-glider GPSE synthesis and it's really messy. So here's a slightly dirty 12-glider drop-in replacement of the existing shotgun, capable of being cleaned up using a few extra gliders...

Ow. The cleanup problem that will have to be solved by slow-salvo construction mechanisms just got a lot more painful.

With the 329-glider recipe there seemed to be a fairly clear minimum value based on the mechanisms proposed so far. Here it may be fairly difficult to figure out what the new minimum cost is, without actually building a cleanup Corderrake fleet for the GPSE salvo-maker.

A "reasonable" plan might be a two-stage cleanup: first build a seed for the p384 Corderrake fleet, which will travel back along the GPSE salvo-maker's ash trail and clean up the 24 still lifes per cycle:

`x = 118, y = 114, rule = LifeHistory116.A\$115.A.A\$115.A.A\$116.A2\$78.A\$77.A.A24.A\$77.2A24.A.A\$103.A2.A\$104.2A7\$81.A\$81.A\$81.A7\$85.3A10\$87.2A\$87.2A8.A\$56.2A33.A4.A.A\$55.A.A33.A4.A.A\$55.2A34.A5.A2\$93.3A2\$74.2A\$74.2A3\$66.2A\$66.2A3\$38.2A\$37.A.A\$37.2A9\$47.2A\$47.2A7\$43.2A\$43.2A2\$6.2A\$5.A.A\$6.A\$17.A\$17.A\$17.A4\$24.3A\$35.2A\$35.2A2\$38.A\$38.A\$38.A2\$40.3A2\$37.2A\$36.A2.A\$37.2A5\$7.2A\$6.A2.A\$7.A.A\$8.A9\$.2A\$A2.A\$.2A!`

The tricky part is that when the Corderrake fleet gets past the standard p384 ash, it will run into the faraway junk left over from the creation of the GPSE salvo-maker. The Corderrake fleet will have to be designed so that it is destroyed when it reaches this area, and (more difficult) doesn't release any gliders when it collapses -- except for one or more gliders heading back to the decoder.

Those returning gliders would be useful: they can trigger a secondary meteor-shower seed, which will head back to the GPSESMCA (glider-producing switch engine salvo maker construction area) and clean up all the non-standard non-p384 stuff, plus the additional ash left by the Corderrake fleet.

I don't see any theoretical difficulty with all of this, but it might be a bit tricky to build a working example of the Corderrake cleanup fleet (i.e., one that collapses without releasing gliders at the end of its cleanup task) -- let alone of the 1G seed that builds that fleet... or the monochromatic single-parity slow salvo that builds the polychromatic p2 slow salvo that builds the seed that builds that fleet.

EDIT: Wait, no, it's _much_ worse than that -- double ow, or maybe ow squared. The proposed design has two widely separated chunks of junk to clean up, one p384 24 still lifes per cycle, and then some miscellaneous intermediate stuff, and then another p384 chunk, with only 12 still lifes per cycle and offset onto different color cells so it's not at all trivial to use some of the same Corderrakes for cleanup.

Definitely some more gliders will have to be used to stop the Corderrakes that clean up the 12-still-life groups. It's hard to guess how many... seems possible that one might be enough, coming in from Very Very Very Very Very Far Away (TM) as part of the original recipe, rather than "wasting" two or more gliders to build a stable structure in the northeast for the Corderrakes to crash into.

dvgrn
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### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

dvgrn wrote:EDIT: Wait, no, it's _much_ worse than that -- double ow, or maybe ow squared. The proposed design has two widely separated chunks of junk to clean up, one p384 24 still lifes per cycle, and then some miscellaneous intermediate stuff, and then another p384 chunk, with only 12 still lifes per cycle and offset onto different color cells so it's not at all trivial to use some of the same Corderrakes for cleanup.

Definitely some more gliders will have to be used to stop the Corderrakes that clean up the 12-still-life groups. It's hard to guess how many... seems possible that one might be enough, coming in from Very Very Very Very Very Far Away (TM) as part of the original recipe, rather than "wasting" two or more gliders to build a stable structure in the northeast for the Corderrakes to crash into.

If we're still just interested in reducing N without regard to practicality, zero extra gliders are needed. Specifically, we use the BABC approach to building and programming a universal computer-constructor in such a way that it can reconstruct the original recipe. Then it proceeds to, in its bank of sliding-block memory, simulate the running of the original pattern to deduce exactly which pieces of junk have been left and in which locations. All 2^colossal of them. And then it can reach around with a destruction arm to clean them all up, one at a time.

I quite like using itaibn's approach of synthesising 4 distant BLSEs to create a 2^2^large diamond-shaped moat of extra junk so that we don't need to worry about known escaping isolated gliders; then, we can probably get away with using Simkin's 3-glider GPSE collisions. One of the objectives of the original construction arm is then to tunnel through this wall and excavate a region so that the sliding-block memory of the computer-that-is-yet-to-be-built can escape into infinity and perform the grand calculation of its own creation.

If you want another few levels of computational masochism, you can make the UCC post-cleanup build a quadratically-growing parallel computer to do a search for primes, knowing that by Bertrand's theorem it will necessarily succeed in finding a suitably large prime greater than the number of ticks currently elapsed, and ensure that it builds its own synthesis in a suitable location to result in a prime-period SMOG comprising only N gliders... even though its prime period is necessarily larger than any prime currently known to the human race, because there's no way you could get this preposterous idea working in as few as 2^77232917 - 1 ticks.
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calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

So 15 glider-producing switch engines plus a block and an eater seems sufficient to make the main body of the Universal Constructor? The boxed pair of gliders correspond to a DFIRE operation. Move them back by 32 cells and you get a PULL operation. Any improvements on this?

`x = 3806, y = 3729, rule = 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$299bo41b2o63b2o\$233bo65bo40bo2bo62b2o\$232bobo25b2o40bo11b2o24bobo83bo\$232bobo25bobo32b3o3bobo10bobo24bo84bo41b2o\$233bo27b2o38bobo11bo110bo40bo2bo\$292b2o8bo84b2o40bo11b2o24bobo\$292b2o59bo33bobo32b3o3bobo10bobo24bo\$352bobo33b2o38bobo11bo\$352bobo64b2o8bo\$353bo65b2o59bo\$479bobo\$479bobo\$480bo!`
chris_c

Posts: 851
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

chris_c wrote:So 15 glider-producing switch engines plus a block and an eater seems sufficient to make the main body of the Universal Constructor? The boxed pair of gliders correspond to a DFIRE operation. Move them back by 32 cells and you get a PULL operation. Any improvements on this?

Impressive! Did you make this in a ship-of-Theseus style by modifying the original pattern to remove each of the guns? (Comparing generation 21851 of my 329-glider announcement post with generation 0 of your pattern suggests this.)

And wow -- one of your glider streams just manages to avoid the 2-engine Cordership. But of course you probably planned that...
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:Impressive! Did you make this in a ship-of-Theseus style by modifying the original pattern to remove each of the guns? (Comparing generation 21851 of my 329-glider announcement post with generation 0 of your pattern suggests this.)

Yes, that's what I did in the central zone --- the three glider streams that test the signal returned from the Cordership and the streams that hit the Cordership are copy-pasted from your original pattern. EDIT: Oh, and the eater :)

calcyman wrote:And wow -- one of your glider streams just manages to avoid the 2-engine Cordership. But of course you probably planned that...

Actually, that was the last bit I removed. I was going to post a pattern with 13 GPSE's and two bumpers but the possibility to have just an eater and a block as the only static parts of the design was too much to resist. So I wouldn't say I planned the Cordership to pass so close to the GPSE but when I checked it I was certainly relieved.
chris_c

Posts: 851
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:If we're still just interested in reducing N without regard to practicality, zero extra gliders are needed.

I guess that's still the number we're looking for. After trying to explain in a weblog posting how this thing would actually work "in practice", though, I'm tempted to look also for the somewhat higher N where we can actually build examples of each individual mechanism working in a runnable pattern. Maybe we won't ever be able to run a complete pattern to completion, but we could easily compile a series of PULL and DFIRE signals for a sample construction, show what the meteor shower looks like for destroying the decoder, write a script to build a meteor shower seed for any given salvo, build a Corderrake that can clean up the BLSE and crash cleanly after we send the two gliders to stop it, etc.

(We probably don't really need the postulated "slow salvo to build a clean Corderrake eater" for BLSE cleanup, by the way. Same as in the GPSE case, we just need the crash to produce exactly one glider, heading back toward the decoder. Unless I'm missing something, we can catch that returning glider and trigger a seed for a meteor shower that does the rest of the cleanup. That is much easier to build an example pattern for, and of course it doesn't change N.)

Collecting a working example of each mechanism seems possible though painful for the 329-glider solution. The BABC universal constructor, or anything that attempts to clean up after ash from multiple GPSEs as well as a BLSE and a 2-engine Cordership, and maybe a moat ... well, that seems to be safely in the realm of wild theoretical hand-waving, not anything that anyone will ever be tempted to try to build.

calcyman wrote:I quite like using itaibn's approach of synthesising 4 distant BLSEs to create a 2^2^large diamond-shaped moat of extra junk so that we don't need to worry about known escaping isolated gliders; then, we can probably get away with using Simkin's 3-glider GPSE collisions.

For some GPSEs, anyway. The 3-glider recipe is messy enough that two GPSEs can't be placed close to each other, as required by chris_c's blueprint -- right?

The moat seems like it would work, with a lot of custom fiddling around with precise positioning to make sure that none of the no-longer-escaping gliders cause any crashes that bounce gliders back toward the middle. Only 16 gliders for the moat, I guess, so if it catches or otherwise saves more than 16 gliders then theoretically it must be worth the investment.

calcyman wrote:If you want another few levels of computational masochism, ...

No! No, I definitely don't. There are quite enough levels of computational masochism available in this design already -- but thank you very much for the kind offer.

dvgrn
Moderator

Posts: 4906
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:00 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Here is a 4G synthesis of a GPSE that has no extraneous gliders, is clean on the glider producing side and has a bit of debris on the other. The debris will allow us to locate the origin of the GPSE from the heart of the Universal Constructor so should be ideal for this project. None of the gliders in the synthesis cross the output glider stream so I would hope that all 15 GPSE's could be built without kickbacks and this should work out cheaper than using the messy 3G option.

`x = 40, y = 28, rule = B3/S23o\$b2o\$2o18\$37bobo\$37b2o\$31bo6bo\$32bo\$30b3o\$27b2o\$26bobo\$28bo!`

EDIT: Oh, there's another thing that needs to be done with my 15 switch engine blueprint. The DFIRE operation is sending gliders SW and that is probably not very clever considering the incoming gliders and switch engines from the SE. It should be very possible to reflect the 3-glider salvo over to the other direction so that all construction can take place in the eastern quadrant.

EDIT2: An idea to reduce the number of switch engines by one: instead of using the block trick to allow a SW stream to delete gliders from two separate SE streams, just have one SE stream and have it destroy two NE streams that are on nearby lanes:

`x = 404, y = 352, rule = B3/S23313bo\$311b2o\$312b2o\$39bo\$40bo\$38b3o57\$220bobobo2\$218bo7bo22bo\$223bo23b2o\$218bo2bobo2bo21b2o\$103bo118b2o\$104bo113bo7bo\$102b3o\$220bobobo58\$185bo\$183b2o\$184b2o\$167bo\$168bo\$166b3o55\$270b2o\$270bobo\$164b2o104bo\$165b2o\$164bo15\$274b2o\$273b2o\$275bo12\$128b2o\$129b2o\$128bo29\$334b2o\$334bobo\$100b2o232bo\$101b2o\$100bo15\$338b2o\$337b2o\$339bo12\$64b2o\$65b2o\$64bo29\$398b2o\$398bobo\$36b2o360bo\$37b2o\$36bo15\$402b2o\$401b2o\$403bo12\$2o\$b2o\$o!`
chris_c

Posts: 851
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Implementing the points mentioned above and a new simpler mechanism to test the returned gliders, here is a blueprint featuring only 12 glider streams and 1 eater. I would hope that the complete pattern with Cordership included could be synthesised in around 60-70 gliders.

`x = 2009, y = 2077, rule = B3/S23256bo\$254bobo\$255b2o53\$177bobo\$178b2o\$178bo5\$180bo\$174bo3bobo\$175bo3b2o139bo\$173b3o142bobo\$319b2o\$2006bobo\$2006b2o\$2007bo50\$241bobo\$242b2o\$242bo5\$244bo\$238bo3bobo\$239bo3b2o139bo\$237b3o142bobo\$383b2o\$1942bobo\$1942b2o\$1943bo22\$1881bo\$1881bobo\$1881b2o26\$305bobo\$306b2o\$306bo5\$308bo\$302bo3bobo\$303bo3b2o139bo\$301b3o142bobo\$447b2o\$1878bobo\$1878b2o\$1879bo22\$1817bo\$1817bobo\$49bo1767b2o\$47bobo\$48b2o24\$369bobo\$370b2o\$370bo5\$372bo\$366bo3bobo\$367bo3b2o139bo\$365b3o142bobo\$511b2o\$1814bobo\$1814b2o\$1815bo22\$1753bo\$1753bobo\$113bo1639b2o\$111bobo\$112b2o24\$433bobo\$434b2o\$434bo5\$436bo\$430bo3bobo\$431bo3b2o139bo\$429b3o142bobo\$575b2o\$1750bobo\$1750b2o\$1751bo22\$1689bo\$1689bobo\$177bo1511b2o\$175bobo\$176b2o24\$497bobo\$498b2o\$498bo5\$500bo\$494bo3bobo\$495bo3b2o139bo\$493b3o142bobo\$639b2o\$1686bobo\$1686b2o\$1687bo22\$1625bo\$1625bobo\$241bo1383b2o\$239bobo\$240b2o24\$561bobo\$562b2o\$562bo5\$564bo\$558bo3bobo\$559bo3b2o139bo\$557b3o142bobo\$703b2o\$1622bobo\$1622b2o\$1623bo22\$1561bo\$1561bobo\$305bo1255b2o\$303bobo\$304b2o24\$625bobo\$626b2o\$626bo5\$628bo\$622bo3bobo\$623bo3b2o139bo\$621b3o142bobo\$767b2o\$1558bobo\$1558b2o\$1559bo22\$1497bo\$1497bobo\$369bo1127b2o\$367bobo\$368b2o24\$689bobo\$690b2o\$690bo5\$692bo\$686bo3bobo\$687bo3b2o139bo\$685b3o142bobo\$831b2o\$1494bobo\$1494b2o\$1495bo22\$1433bo\$1433bobo\$433bo999b2o\$431bobo\$432b2o24\$753bobo\$754b2o\$754bo5\$756bo\$750bo3bobo\$751bo3b2o139bo\$749b3o142bobo\$895b2o\$1430bobo\$1430b2o\$1431bo22\$1369bo\$1369bobo\$497bo871b2o\$495bobo\$496b2o24\$817bobo\$818b2o\$818bo5\$820bo\$814bo3bobo\$815bo3b2o139bo\$813b3o142bobo\$959b2o\$1366bobo\$1366b2o\$1367bo22\$1305bo\$1305bobo\$561bo743b2o\$559bobo\$560b2o24\$881bobo\$882b2o\$882bo5\$884bo\$878bo3bobo\$879bo3b2o139bo\$877b3o142bobo\$1023b2o\$1302bobo\$1302b2o\$1303bo22\$1241bo\$1241bobo\$625bo615b2o\$623bobo\$624b2o24\$945bobo\$946b2o\$946bo5\$948bo\$942bo3bobo\$943bo3b2o139bo\$941b3o142bobo\$1087b2o\$1238bobo\$1238b2o\$1239bo22\$1177bo\$1177bobo\$689bo487b2o\$687bobo\$688b2o24\$1009bobo\$1010b2o\$1010bo5\$1012bo\$1006bo3bobo\$1007bo3b2o\$1005b3o2\$1174bobo\$1174b2o\$1175bo22\$1113bo\$1113bobo\$753bo359b2o\$751bobo\$752b2o24\$1073bobo\$1074b2o\$1074bo4\$1088b2o\$1076bo12b2o\$1070bo3bobo11bo\$1071bo3b2o\$1069b3o2\$1110bobo\$1110b2o\$1111bo22\$1049bo\$1049bobo\$817bo231b2o\$815bobo\$816b2o71bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo4\$889bo4bo26bo\$892bobo\$893b2o2\$889bo31bo4\$889bo31bo4\$889bo31bo4\$889bo31bo4\$889bo25bobo3bo\$916b2o\$916bo2\$889bo31bo2\$1024b2o\$1025b2o\$889bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo102bo27\$1078b2o\$985bo91bobo\$985bobo91bo\$881bo103b2o\$879bobo\$880b2o30\$960b2o\$961b2o\$960bo2\$990b2o\$990bobo\$992bo\$992b2o22\$1014b2o\$1013bobo\$1015bo9\$1035b2o\$1035bobo\$1007b2o26bo\$1008b2o\$1007bo15\$1039b2o\$1038b2o\$1040bo3\$896b2o\$897b2o\$896bo27\$950b2o\$949bobo\$951bo9\$1099b2o\$1099bobo\$943b2o154bo\$944b2o\$943bo15\$1103b2o\$1102b2o\$1104bo3\$832b2o\$833b2o\$832bo5\$1341b2o\$1341b2o21\$886b2o\$885bobo\$887bo9\$1163b2o\$1163bobo\$879b2o282bo\$880b2o\$879bo15\$1167b2o\$1166b2o\$1168bo3\$768b2o\$769b2o\$768bo27\$822b2o\$821bobo\$823bo9\$1227b2o\$1227bobo\$815b2o410bo\$816b2o\$815bo15\$1231b2o\$1230b2o\$1232bo3\$704b2o\$705b2o\$704bo27\$758b2o\$757bobo\$759bo9\$1291b2o\$1291bobo\$751b2o538bo\$752b2o\$751bo15\$1295b2o\$1294b2o\$1296bo3\$640b2o\$641b2o\$640bo27\$694b2o\$693bobo\$695bo9\$1355b2o\$1355bobo\$687b2o666bo\$688b2o\$687bo15\$1359b2o\$1358b2o\$1360bo3\$576b2o\$577b2o\$576bo27\$630b2o\$629bobo\$631bo9\$1419b2o\$1419bobo\$623b2o794bo\$624b2o\$623bo15\$1423b2o\$1422b2o\$1424bo3\$512b2o\$513b2o\$512bo27\$566b2o\$565bobo\$567bo9\$1483b2o\$1483bobo\$559b2o922bo\$560b2o\$559bo15\$1487b2o\$1486b2o\$1488bo3\$448b2o\$449b2o\$448bo27\$502b2o\$501bobo\$503bo9\$1547b2o\$1547bobo\$495b2o1050bo\$496b2o\$495bo15\$1551b2o\$1550b2o\$1552bo3\$384b2o\$385b2o\$384bo27\$438b2o\$437bobo\$439bo9\$1611b2o\$1611bobo\$431b2o1178bo\$432b2o\$431bo15\$1615b2o\$1614b2o\$1616bo3\$320b2o\$321b2o\$320bo27\$374b2o\$373bobo\$375bo9\$1675b2o\$1675bobo\$367b2o1306bo\$368b2o\$367bo15\$1679b2o\$1678b2o\$1680bo3\$256b2o\$257b2o\$256bo27\$310b2o\$309bobo\$311bo9\$1739b2o\$1739bobo\$303b2o1434bo\$304b2o\$303bo15\$1743b2o\$1742b2o\$1744bo3\$192b2o\$193b2o\$192bo27\$246b2o\$245bobo\$247bo9\$1803b2o\$1803bobo\$239b2o1562bo\$240b2o\$239bo15\$1807b2o\$1806b2o\$1808bo3\$128b2o\$129b2o\$128bo27\$182b2o\$181bobo\$183bo9\$1867b2o\$1867bobo\$175b2o1690bo\$176b2o\$175bo15\$1871b2o\$1870b2o\$1872bo3\$64b2o\$65b2o\$64bo27\$118b2o\$117bobo\$119bo9\$1931b2o\$1931bobo\$111b2o1818bo\$112b2o\$111bo15\$1935b2o\$1934b2o\$1936bo3\$2o\$b2o\$o27\$54b2o\$53bobo\$55bo!`
chris_c

Posts: 851
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

chris_c wrote:Implementing the points mentioned above and a new simpler mechanism to test the returned gliders, here is a blueprint featuring only 12 glider streams and 1 eater. I would hope that the complete pattern with Cordership included could be synthesised in around 60-70 gliders.

Very impressive! The eater and BLSE can be built at the beginning with 2 + 4 = 6 gliders, and hopefully each of the GPSEs can be synthesised in 4, which puts us at 54 gliders. If we're maximally lucky in terms of no kickbacks being necessary, the Cordership can be synthesised with a further 8 gliders, bringing the total to 62. I guess the upper bound of 70 was to give some room in case kickbacks turn out to be necessary in various places?

This is so much more elegant than my 329-glider design, and if you manage <= 65 gliders it will be over 5 times more efficient. Wow!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

This has the potential to set several new synthesis records! According to the wiki, these are the patterns that currently need 60 or more gliders:
`60 AK-9461 Hustler62 Bipole bridge pseudo-barberpole63 60P5H2V0, Cauldron65 30P5H2V067 P44 pi-heptomino hassler69 1-2-371 98P2576 Beluchenko's p5177 Pushalong 178 Syringe79 Weekender85 30P4H2V0.488 65P13.195 Achim's p11100 \$rats118 Pressure cooker139 Clock 2142 44P12.3151 Pinwheel161 Hustler II264 Pipsquirter 11000+ Demonoid, Gemini, Orthogonoid, Parallel HBK`

We should probably edit these pages on the wiki so that the "Glider synthesis" section reads as
Fewest gliders 264 (67)
Where the bracketed number (I used 67 as an example) links to the reverse-caber-tosser page.

Is the plan to use a BLSE instead of the cordership? The same way of bouncing two gliders off it no longer works. What's the easiest way to find a new reaction? Is this the kind of thing that gencols can do?

Macbi

Posts: 500
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 4:58 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Macbi wrote:We should probably edit these pages on the wiki so that the "Glider synthesis" section reads as
Fewest gliders 264 (67)
Where the bracketed number (I used 67 as an example) links to the reverse-caber-tosser page.

Indeed --- FWIW this is already being discussed on the wiki.
If you speak, your speech must be better than your silence would have been. — Arabian proverb

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Apple Bottom

Posts: 978
Joined: July 27th, 2015, 2:06 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Macbi wrote:Is the plan to use a BLSE instead of the cordership?

Not for this version, no: the estimate of 62 gliders was with eater + cordership + BLSE + 12*GPSE.

Probably if a suitable reaction involving a single switch-engine were found, this number could be reduced further.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:Probably if a suitable reaction involving a single switch-engine were found, this number could be reduced further.

Would this reaction (or similar) work? An incoming glider suppresses one of the outgoing gliders from a GPSE.
`x = 371, y = 325, rule = B3/S2338b2o\$37bobo\$37b2o9\$47b2o\$47b2o7\$43b2o\$43b2o5\$17bo\$17bo\$17bo4\$24b3o\$35b2o33b2o\$35b2o32bobo\$69b2o\$38bo\$38bo\$38bo2\$40b3o2\$37b2o\$36bo2bo\$37b2o40b2o\$79b2o4\$7b2o\$6bo2bo\$7bobo\$8bo66b2o\$75b2o2\$38b2o\$37bobo\$38bo\$49bo\$49bo\$49bo\$b2o\$o2bo\$b2o\$56b3o\$67b2o33b2o\$67b2o32bobo\$101b2o\$70bo\$70bo\$70bo2\$72b3o2\$69b2o\$68bo2bo\$69b2o40b2o\$111b2o4\$39b2o\$38bo2bo\$39bobo\$40bo66b2o\$107b2o2\$70b2o\$69bobo\$70bo\$81bo\$81bo\$81bo\$33b2o\$32bo2bo\$33b2o\$88b3o\$99b2o33b2o\$99b2o32bobo\$133b2o\$102bo\$102bo\$102bo2\$104b3o2\$101b2o\$100bo2bo\$101b2o40b2o\$143b2o4\$71b2o\$70bo2bo\$71bobo\$72bo66b2o\$139b2o2\$102b2o\$101bobo\$102bo4\$65b2o44b2o\$64bo2bo22b3o17bobo\$65b2o22bo2bo4b2o12bo\$89bo3b3o2bo\$88bo42b2o\$89b2o40b2o\$91bo84bobo\$92bo4bo36bo42b2o\$91bo5bo36bo42bo\$89b2o3b2o38bo\$88bo\$89bo3bo42b3o\$89bo2bo\$90b3o40b2o\$132bo2bo\$133b2o2\$105bo\$104bobo\$104b2o\$105bo\$99b2o5bo\$95bo3b2o5b2o\$90bo2bo2bo9b3o\$90bo3bo2bo6b4o\$90bo3bob2o7b2o\$94bo2bo7b2o4bo3bo18b2o\$94bobo5b3o4bo2bo2bo17bobo\$95b2o6b4ob2o24bo\$105bob2o\$105bob2o\$106bo\$91b2o50b2o\$91b2o11b3o35bobo\$101bob2ob2obo19b2o12bo\$100bo4b4o19bobo\$100bo3bob3o20bo\$99b2obobo2bo\$103bob2o\$117b2o\$117b2o3\$153b2o\$153b2o\$146b2o\$146b2o2\$154bo\$142b2o9b3o\$142b2o8b2o2bo\$134bo21bo4b2o\$133bobo16b4o5b2o\$134b2o\$151bo\$151b2o\$149b2o\$147b3o\$146b2o\$146bo15bobo\$147b3o12bo4bo\$148b2o12bob2obo\$165b2obo\$141b2o23bo\$141b2o23b2o\$166b2o\$166bo\$165bobo\$166bo2\$240bobo\$149b2o90b2o\$149b2o90bo\$163b3o\$163bo3bo\$164b2obo2\$165b3o\$165b3o5\$230b3o\$230bo\$231bo49\$304bobo\$305b2o\$305bo62\$368bobo\$369b2o\$369bo!`

EDIT: The answer is no, right? Because this can only happen at p256. We need to bounce off a BLSE because that's p196 which isn't a multiple of 256.

Macbi

Posts: 500
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 4:58 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Neither a p384 GPSE nor a p288 BLSE would work; the reaction needs to be repeatable at p192 or a divisor thereof. Hence the p96 Cordership works perfectly.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:Very impressive! The eater and BLSE can be built at the beginning with 2 + 4 = 6 gliders, and hopefully each of the GPSEs can be synthesised in 4, which puts us at 54 gliders. If we're maximally lucky in terms of no kickbacks being necessary, the Cordership can be synthesised with a further 8 gliders, bringing the total to 62. I guess the upper bound of 70 was to give some room in case kickbacks turn out to be necessary in various places?

Thanks. Yes, the upper bound was taking into account kickbacks and I hope it is reasonably pessimistic. In fact a simple tweak to two of the streams in my last pattern allows us to get rid of the eater also. That would bring your lower bound down to the very enticing value of 60.

`x = 1993, y = 2076, rule = B3/S23258bobo\$259b2o\$259bo52\$161bobo\$162b2o\$162bo5\$164bo\$158bo3bobo\$159bo3b2o\$157b3o162bobo\$323b2o\$323bo1666bobo\$1990b2o\$1991bo50\$225bobo\$226b2o\$226bo5\$228bo\$222bo3bobo\$223bo3b2o\$221b3o162bobo\$387b2o\$387bo1538bobo\$1926b2o\$1927bo22\$1865bo\$1865bobo\$1865b2o26\$289bobo\$290b2o\$290bo5\$292bo\$286bo3bobo\$287bo3b2o\$285b3o162bobo\$451b2o\$451bo1410bobo\$1862b2o\$1863bo22\$1801bo\$1801bobo\$33bo1767b2o\$31bobo\$32b2o24\$353bobo\$354b2o\$354bo5\$356bo\$350bo3bobo\$351bo3b2o\$349b3o162bobo\$515b2o\$515bo1282bobo\$1798b2o\$1799bo22\$1737bo\$1737bobo\$97bo1639b2o\$95bobo\$96b2o24\$417bobo\$418b2o\$418bo5\$420bo\$414bo3bobo\$415bo3b2o\$413b3o162bobo\$579b2o\$579bo1154bobo\$1734b2o\$1735bo22\$1673bo\$1673bobo\$161bo1511b2o\$159bobo\$160b2o24\$481bobo\$482b2o\$482bo5\$484bo\$478bo3bobo\$479bo3b2o\$477b3o162bobo\$643b2o\$643bo1026bobo\$1670b2o\$1671bo22\$1609bo\$1609bobo\$225bo1383b2o\$223bobo\$224b2o24\$545bobo\$546b2o\$546bo5\$548bo\$542bo3bobo\$543bo3b2o\$541b3o162bobo\$707b2o\$707bo898bobo\$1606b2o\$1607bo22\$1545bo\$1545bobo\$289bo1255b2o\$287bobo\$288b2o24\$609bobo\$610b2o\$610bo5\$612bo\$606bo3bobo\$607bo3b2o\$605b3o162bobo\$771b2o\$771bo770bobo\$1542b2o\$1543bo22\$1481bo\$1481bobo\$353bo1127b2o\$351bobo\$352b2o24\$673bobo\$674b2o\$674bo5\$676bo\$670bo3bobo\$671bo3b2o\$669b3o162bobo\$835b2o\$835bo642bobo\$1478b2o\$1479bo22\$1417bo\$1417bobo\$417bo999b2o\$415bobo\$416b2o24\$737bobo\$738b2o\$738bo5\$740bo\$734bo3bobo\$735bo3b2o\$733b3o162bobo\$899b2o\$899bo514bobo\$1414b2o\$1415bo22\$1353bo\$1353bobo\$481bo871b2o\$479bobo\$480b2o24\$801bobo\$802b2o\$802bo5\$804bo\$798bo3bobo\$799bo3b2o\$797b3o162bobo\$963b2o\$963bo386bobo\$1350b2o\$1351bo22\$1289bo\$1289bobo\$545bo743b2o\$543bobo\$544b2o24\$865bobo\$866b2o\$866bo5\$868bo\$862bo3bobo\$863bo3b2o\$861b3o162bobo\$1027b2o\$1027bo258bobo\$1286b2o\$1287bo22\$1225bo\$1225bobo\$609bo615b2o\$607bobo\$608b2o24\$929bobo\$930b2o\$930bo5\$932bo\$926bo3bobo\$927bo3b2o\$925b3o162bobo\$1091b2o\$1091bo130bobo\$1222b2o\$1223bo22\$1161bo\$1161bobo\$673bo487b2o\$671bobo\$672b2o24\$993bobo\$994b2o\$994bo5\$996bo\$990bo3bobo\$991bo3b2o\$989b3o2\$1158bobo\$1158b2o\$1159bo22\$1097bo\$1097bobo\$737bo359b2o\$735bobo\$736b2o12\$1089bo\$1089b2o\$1088bobo10\$1057bobo\$1058b2o\$1058bo5\$1060bo\$1054bo3bobo\$1055bo3b2o\$1053b3o2\$1094bobo\$1094b2o\$1095bo22\$1033bo\$1033bobo\$801bo231b2o\$799bobo\$800b2o71bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo4\$873bo4bo26bo\$876bobo\$877b2o2\$873bo31bo4\$873bo31bo119bo\$1025b2o\$1024bobo2\$873bo31bo4\$873bo31bo4\$873bo25bobo3bo\$900b2o\$900bo2\$873bo31bo4\$873bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo3bo27\$1062b2o\$969bo91bobo\$969bobo91bo\$865bo103b2o\$863bobo\$864b2o12\$961bo\$961b2o\$960bobo45\$998b2o\$997bobo\$999bo9\$1019b2o\$1019bobo\$991b2o26bo\$992b2o\$991bo2\$897bo\$897b2o\$896bobo11\$1023b2o\$1022b2o\$1024bo32\$934b2o\$933bobo\$935bo9\$1083b2o\$1083bobo\$927b2o154bo\$928b2o\$927bo2\$833bo\$833b2o\$832bobo11\$1087b2o\$1086b2o\$1088bo10\$1325b2o\$1325b2o21\$870b2o\$869bobo\$871bo9\$1147b2o\$1147bobo\$863b2o282bo\$864b2o\$863bo2\$769bo\$769b2o\$768bobo11\$1151b2o\$1150b2o\$1152bo32\$806b2o\$805bobo\$807bo9\$1211b2o\$1211bobo\$799b2o410bo\$800b2o\$799bo2\$705bo\$705b2o\$704bobo11\$1215b2o\$1214b2o\$1216bo32\$742b2o\$741bobo\$743bo9\$1275b2o\$1275bobo\$735b2o538bo\$736b2o\$735bo2\$641bo\$641b2o\$640bobo11\$1279b2o\$1278b2o\$1280bo32\$678b2o\$677bobo\$679bo9\$1339b2o\$1339bobo\$671b2o666bo\$672b2o\$671bo2\$577bo\$577b2o\$576bobo11\$1343b2o\$1342b2o\$1344bo32\$614b2o\$613bobo\$615bo9\$1403b2o\$1403bobo\$607b2o794bo\$608b2o\$607bo2\$513bo\$513b2o\$512bobo11\$1407b2o\$1406b2o\$1408bo32\$550b2o\$549bobo\$551bo9\$1467b2o\$1467bobo\$543b2o922bo\$544b2o\$543bo2\$449bo\$449b2o\$448bobo11\$1471b2o\$1470b2o\$1472bo32\$486b2o\$485bobo\$487bo9\$1531b2o\$1531bobo\$479b2o1050bo\$480b2o\$479bo2\$385bo\$385b2o\$384bobo11\$1535b2o\$1534b2o\$1536bo32\$422b2o\$421bobo\$423bo9\$1595b2o\$1595bobo\$415b2o1178bo\$416b2o\$415bo2\$321bo\$321b2o\$320bobo11\$1599b2o\$1598b2o\$1600bo32\$358b2o\$357bobo\$359bo9\$1659b2o\$1659bobo\$351b2o1306bo\$352b2o\$351bo2\$257bo\$257b2o\$256bobo11\$1663b2o\$1662b2o\$1664bo32\$294b2o\$293bobo\$295bo9\$1723b2o\$1723bobo\$287b2o1434bo\$288b2o\$287bo2\$193bo\$193b2o\$192bobo11\$1727b2o\$1726b2o\$1728bo32\$230b2o\$229bobo\$231bo9\$1787b2o\$1787bobo\$223b2o1562bo\$224b2o\$223bo2\$129bo\$129b2o\$128bobo11\$1791b2o\$1790b2o\$1792bo32\$166b2o\$165bobo\$167bo9\$1851b2o\$1851bobo\$159b2o1690bo\$160b2o\$159bo2\$65bo\$65b2o\$64bobo11\$1855b2o\$1854b2o\$1856bo32\$102b2o\$101bobo\$103bo9\$1915b2o\$1915bobo\$95b2o1818bo\$96b2o\$95bo2\$bo\$b2o\$obo11\$1919b2o\$1918b2o\$1920bo32\$38b2o\$37bobo\$39bo!`
chris_c

Posts: 851
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Even more beautiful! Now the construction has no 'stable circuitry' whatsoever, and belongs in a category of its own.

By the way, it appears that you've transposed the shotgun (vis-a-vis my original pattern), so the DFIREs go north-east instead of south-west.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:By the way, it appears that you've transposed the shotgun (vis-a-vis my original pattern), so the DFIREs go north-east instead of south-west.

That seems like the better direction to aim. There's limited room to the south-west, which make universality less obvious.

Macbi

Posts: 500
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 4:58 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Here's a synthesis (which works from infinity) of 4 of the 5 SE-directed GPSEs. Note that whilst one stream is a cycle ahead of the others, that's okay because it's annihilated by a different glider stream in chris_c's pattern (which therefore also can be advanced by one cycle):

`x = 992, y = 1153, rule = B3/S23991bo\$989b2o\$990b2o25\$137bo\$135bobo\$136b2o\$968bo\$967bo\$967b3o86\$958bo\$956b2o\$957b2o25\$104bo\$102bobo\$103b2o\$935bo\$934bo\$934b3o79\$27bo\$28b2o\$27b2o64\$85bobo\$86b2o\$86bo126\$31bo\$31b2o\$30bobo\$229b2o\$229bobo\$229bo18\$3o\$2bo\$bo418\$971bo\$970b2o\$970bobo116\$938bo\$937b2o\$937bobo142\$89b2o\$90b2o\$89bo\$926b3o\$926bo\$927bo17\$59b2o\$58bobo\$60bo!`

The (middle-glider)-producing switch engine in the DFIRE shotgun hits the ash and terminates cleanly without releasing any gliders. If you move each of the 'quadrants' of the synthesis out by multiples of 128fd, you get extra triplets in the shotgun stream whilst maintaining the same clean collision behaviour.

For each GPSE, there's a degree of freedom in where and when to synthesise it. This means we should be able to ensure no kickbacks are needed at all in the entire thing and therefore a 60-glider synthesis should be possible.

EDIT: I think it's even possible to 'greedily' add one GPSE synthesis at a time to the pattern above, never needing to backtrack.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

calcyman wrote:Here's a synthesis (which works from infinity) of 4 of the 5 SE-directed GPSEs...

Looking good so far. I agree that their is plenty of freedom in the timing and location of the switch engine syntheses. If you look at my pattern there is also scope for moving streams apart by 64 lanes in quite a few places. This may help if any "head on" glider collisions occur. The place where I don't see this freedom is the synthesis of the Cordership and the two glider streams which hit it. If anyone can synthesise this part of the pattern in 4 * 4 = 16 gliders I think the whole thing should definitely be doable in 60G.

EDIT: Added the BLSE to calcyman's synth. The SE glider needed for the BLSE is well away from the lanes of the NW gliders needed for the other streams. This is the kind of thing I was wary of for the Cordership + 2 gliders streams part, but now I look at how far away from the switch engines the gliders are produced in a GPSE I am a lot less worried.

`x = 1005, y = 1153, rule = B3/S23991bo\$989b2o\$990b2o25\$137bo\$135bobo\$136b2o\$968bo\$967bo\$967b3o86\$958bo\$956b2o\$957b2o25\$104bo\$102bobo\$103b2o\$935bo\$934bo\$934b3o79\$27bo\$28b2o\$27b2o64\$85bobo\$86b2o\$86bo126\$31bo\$31b2o\$30bobo\$229b2o\$229bobo\$229bo18\$3o\$2bo\$bo418\$971bo\$970b2o\$970bobo24\$1002bo\$1002bobo\$1002b2o67\$857bo\$855bobo\$856b2o21\$938bo\$937b2o\$937bobo44\$859b3o\$861bo\$860bo72bo\$932b2o\$932bobo94\$89b2o\$90b2o\$89bo\$926b3o\$926bo\$927bo17\$59b2o\$58bobo\$60bo!`
chris_c

Posts: 851
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

I found a trick... I did a flip on calcyman's synthesis so that the stray glider from the three salvo stream is on the other side and then used it to settle the switch engine of the BLSE without using a fourth glider. Therefore this pattern uses just 31 gliders for 8 switch engines. The streams which kill the three glider salvo have been moved down by 128 cells compared to the blueprint but that should be fine.

`x = 3006, y = 3100, rule = B3/S23994bo\$994bobo\$994b2o25\$141bobo\$142b2o\$142bo\$973bo\$971b2o\$972b2o80\$13bo\$14b2o\$13b2o11\$325bo\$323b2o\$324b2o25\$111bo\$109bobo\$110b2o\$302bo\$301bo\$301b3o25\$961bo\$961bobo\$961b2o25\$172bobo\$173b2o\$173bo\$940bo\$938b2o\$939b2o16\$28bo\$29bo\$27b3o2\$2750bobo\$2750b2o\$2751bo115\$305bo\$304b2o\$304bobo512\$974b3o\$974bo\$975bo116\$941b3o\$941bo\$942bo62\$37bo\$35bobo\$36b2o11\$9bo\$10b2o\$9b2o4\$1586bo\$1585bo\$1585b3o\$66bo\$67b2o\$66b2o9\$1784bobo\$1784b2o\$40bo1744bo\$41bo\$39b3o42\$31b2o\$30bobo\$32bo\$931b2o\$930b2o\$932bo17\$bo\$b2o\$obo225\$2747b2o\$2746b2o\$2748bo\$1601b3o\$1603bo\$1602bo17\$2777b2o\$2777bobo\$2777bo1185\$63bo\$63b2o\$62bobo237\$36b2o\$35bobo\$37bo269\$17bo\$17b2o\$16bobo\$3003b2o\$3003bobo\$3003bo!`

I believe the junk is sufficient to get an elbow for free:

`x = 133, y = 148, rule = LifeHistory6.A\$4.A.A\$5.2A5\$6.A\$7.2A\$A.A3.2A\$.2A\$.A22\$39.B\$39.2B\$39.3B\$39.4B\$40.4B\$41.4B\$39.B2.4B\$39.2B2.4B\$39.3B2.4B\$39.4B2.4B\$40.4B2.4B\$41.4B2.4B\$42.4B2.4B\$39.B3.4B2.4B\$39.2B3.4B2.4B\$39.3B3.4B2.4B\$39.4B3.4B2.4B\$40.4B3.4B2.4B\$41.4B3.4B2.4B\$42.4B3.4B2.4B\$43.4B3.4B2.4B\$44.4B3.4B2.4B\$45.4B3.4B2.4B\$46.4B3.4B2.4B\$47.4B3.4B2.4B\$48.4B3.4B2.4B\$49.4B3.4B2.4B\$50.4B3.4B2.4B\$51.4B3.4B2.4B\$52.4B3.4B2.4B\$53.4B3.4B2.4B\$54.4B3.4B2.4B\$55.4B3.4B2.4B\$56.4B3.4B2.4B\$57.4B3.4B2.4B\$58.4B3.4B2.4B\$59.4B3.4B2.4B\$60.4B3.4B2.4B\$61.4B3.4B2.4B\$62.4B3.4B2.4B\$63.4B3.4B2.4B\$64.4B3.4B2.4B\$65.4B3.4B2.4B\$66.4B3.4B2.4B\$67.4B3.4B2.4B\$68.4B3.4B2.4B\$69.4B3.4B2.4B11.A\$70.4B3.4B2.4B9.A.A\$71.4B3.4B2.4B9.2A\$72.4B3.4B2.4B\$73.4B3.4B2.4B\$74.4B3.4B2.3BA\$75.4B3.4B2.ABAB\$76.4B3.4B2.2A2B10.A\$77.4B3.4B2.4B8.A.A\$78.4B3.4B2.4B6.A2.A18.2A\$79.4B3.4B2.4B6.2A19.2A\$80.4B3.4B2.4B\$81.4B3.2BAB2.4B19.2A\$82.4B3.2B2A2.4B18.2A\$83.BABA3.2A2B2.4B\$84.B2AB3.4B2.4B\$85.A3B3.4B2.4B11.2A\$86.4B3.4B2.2A2B10.2A16.2A\$87.4B3.4B.2A3B27.2A\$88.4B3.4B2.4B\$89.4B3.4B2.4B\$90.4B3.4B2.4B\$91.4B3.4B2.3B\$92.4B3.4B2.2B\$93.4B3.4B2.B\$94.4B3.4B\$95.4B3.4B\$96.4B3.4B19.2A\$97.4B3.3B19.2A\$98.4B3.2B\$99.4B3.B\$100.4B18.2A\$101.4B17.2A\$102.4B\$103.4B\$104.3B\$105.2B\$106.B12.2A\$119.2A7\$127.2A\$54.3A70.2A\$56.A\$55.A18\$46.3A\$48.A\$47.A!`

EDIT: This is more convincing:

`x = 206, y = 286, rule = B3/S232bo\$obo\$b2o5\$2bo\$3b2o\$2b2o147\$170bo\$169bobo\$170b2o3\$163bo\$161bobo\$162b2o12bo\$175bobo\$174bo2bo18b2o\$175b2o19b2o2\$163bo26b2o\$164b2o24b2o\$157bobo3b2o\$158b2o\$158bo27b2o\$186b2o16b2o\$204b2o2\$175b2o\$175b2o6\$199b2o\$199b2o3\$195b2o\$195b2o5\$192b2o\$192b2o7\$200b2o\$200b2o3\$132b3o\$134bo\$133bo13\$115b3o\$117bo\$116bo33\$70b3o\$72bo\$71bo26\$32b3o\$34bo\$33bo!`
chris_c

Posts: 851
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Nicely done! This should yield a 59-glider universal constructor, with a total population of 295 cells. That almost (but not quite) breaks Sir Robin's record of the smallest knightship in terms of minimum population, despite the huge extra constraint that it consists solely of gliders.
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!

calcyman

Posts: 1733
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm

### Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

the second smallest knightship will be a KMOG lol

Majestas32

Posts: 509
Joined: November 20th, 2017, 12:22 pm
Location: 'Merica

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