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Catagolue Oddities

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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » January 26th, 2018, 10:14 pm

For the rule B2e3-a/S23, Catalogue lists a bunch of supposed xp1001 patterns that are actually spaceships with significantly smaller periods, plus an empty pattern.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby danny » February 17th, 2018, 1:16 pm

Why is this included with the rest of the yl38s?:
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B2ci3ai4c8/S02ae3eijkq4iz5ar6i7e
ooobbbbboobbbbbb$
oobboobbbboboobo$
oboboobboobbbobo$
obooobbbobbooooo$
bbobobbooobobbbb$
bbbobbboobbobbbb$
obboboboobbboobo$
bbbbbbooobbooboo$
ooboobbbooooobob$
oboobooooboooobb$
booboobooobbbobo$
bbbobboobobbobbb$
oobooobobooooooo$
bbbbobbobbobbobb$
bboobbbbbobobobb$
obobbboobbbooobb!


It has a completely different stator than the rest of them. I thought different stator meant different apgcode? Said yl38 is this, the aforementioned soup is the 4th black dot.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby Apple Bottom » February 17th, 2018, 1:46 pm

danny wrote:I thought different stator meant different apgcode?


Not necessarily -- apgsearch performs some dark rituals behind the scenes to collect data on linear-growth patterns (take a look at linearlyse() and deepperiod() in apgsearch 1.x, or linearlyse() in apgluxe 4.x); the results are hashed, so if two different patterns happen to produce the same figures, they'll end up getting the same apgcode as well.

Whether that's the case here or whether there's a bug I can't say. (Neither can I tell you what exactly it is that linearlyse() computes; you'll have to ask Calcyman about that. And if you get an explanation that us mere mortals can understand, be sure to also add it to the wiki. ;))
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby mniemiec » February 17th, 2018, 5:39 pm

danny wrote:Why is this included with the rest of the yl38s?: ... It has a completely different stator than the rest of them. I thought different stator meant different apgcode?

Still-lifes, oscillators, and spaceships encode the actual pattern image in the apgcode, so different stators generate different apgcodes. Expanding patterns are different, since there's no image to repeat. Instead of growing patterns being matched by image, they are matched by population.

The apgcode is yl(a)_(b)_(c)_(d). (a) is the repeat factor (which is often the period, but may be a fraction of it, e.g. with switch engines, it's often half the period, as many switch engines have glide symmetry. I'm not sure what (b) is; it always seems to be 1. (c) is the population increase every period. (d) is a hash of the population signature during one period. While it's possible for two different expanding patterns to have the same pattern , it is extremely unlikely. Note that with this system, different stators will produce the same pattern and apgcode. Having another rotor (e.g. a beacon or something similar) with a fluctuating population attached to the same stator would produce a different population signature, and thus a different apgcode.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby danny » February 17th, 2018, 7:18 pm

(b) seems to be determined by the first number and the period of the ash. For example, a yl32 that puffs period 6 oscillators would have (b) be 3, and if it puffed p3 oscillators it would also be 6, but p2 would yield 1. I don't know what this is called.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby mniemiec » February 17th, 2018, 8:44 pm

danny wrote:(b) seems to be determined by the first number and the period of the ash. For example, a yl32 that puffs period 6 oscillators would have (b) be 3, and if it puffed p3 oscillators it would also be 6, but p2 would yield 1. I don't know what this is called.

Did you mean that P6 oscillators would have b=6 and P3 oscillators would have b=3? Again, it's all about the population, so P2 oscillators like beacons would appear to be period 2 (i.e. 6 8 6 8 ...), while blinkers would appear to be period 1 (i.e. 3 3 3 3 ...). Gliders also appear to be period 1.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby danny » February 17th, 2018, 8:59 pm

mniemiec wrote:{stuff i missed >.<}

Ah yeah, I forgot apgsearch is blind to laughable human concepts like cell positioning. But yes, it would be the period of the population of the ash divided by whatever factors it shares with the first number.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » February 20th, 2018, 12:52 am

The first (at the time of writing, only) sample soup listed here doesn't produce the object: http://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xs1 ... e2ekn34ent

Object:
x = 8, y = 5, rule = B2in34-a/S1e2ekn34ent
3b2o$2bo2bo$8o$2bo2bo$3b2o!


Supposed soup:
x = 32, y = 31, rule = B2in34-a/S1e2ekn34ent
bobobobbobooboobbooboobobbobobob$
ooobobbobbboobboobboobbbobbobooo$
bobboboobbbbbbbbbbbbbbbboobobbob$
oooooobobobboooooooobboboboooooo$
ooboooobbboboobbbboobobbbooooboo$
obbbooobbbobbbobbobbbobbbooobbbo$
oooobbboobobooooooooboboobbboooo$
bbobobbbbbbboobbbboobbbbbbbobobb$
boooboboobobooooooooboboobobooob$
bbobooboooobobbbbbbobooooboobobb$
bbbbbbbbobboboooooobobbobbbbbbbb$
obobbobbbbbobbobbobbobbbbbobbobo$
obooboobobobbboooobbbobobooboobo$
obobboboobbbbobbbbobbbboobobbobo$
oobobobbobbbooobbooobbbobboboboo$
bbbobboboboooobooboooobobobbobbb$
oobobobbobbbooobbooobbbobboboboo$
obobboboobbbbobbbbobbbboobobbobo$
obooboobobobbboooobbbobobooboobo$
obobbobbbbbobbobbobbobbbbbobbobo$
bbbbbbbbobboboooooobobbobbbbbbbb$
bbobooboooobobbbbbbobooooboobobb$
boooboboobobooooooooboboobobooob$
bbobobbbbbbboobbbboobbbbbbbobobb$
oooobbboobobooooooooboboobbboooo$
obbbooobbbobbbobbobbbobbbooobbbo$
ooboooobbboboobbbboobobbbooooboo$
oooooobobobboooooooobboboboooooo$
bobboboobbbbbbbbbbbbbbbboobobbob$
ooobobbobbboobboobboobbbobbobooo$
bobobobbobooboobbooboobobbobobob!
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby Saka » February 20th, 2018, 5:37 am

77topaz wrote:The first (at the time of writing, only) sample soup listed here doesn't produce the object: http://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xs1 ... e2ekn34ent

Object:
obj


Supposed soup:
soop

No, it is not the first time this has happened. It has happened a number of times. The first was an oscillator in a rule I forgot about.
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x = 17, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2ob2obo5b2o$11b4obo$2bob3o2bo2b3o$bo3b2o4b2o$o2bo2bob2o3b4o$bob2obo5b
o2b2o$2b2o4bobo2b3o$bo3b5ob2obobo$2bo5bob2o$4bob2o2bobobo!

(Check gen 2)
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » February 20th, 2018, 6:34 am

Saka wrote:No, it is not the first time this has happened. It has happened a number of times. The first was an oscillator in a rule I forgot about.


I wasn't implying this was the first time a soup listed as producing an object didn't produce that object; I've seen that mentioned in other places in this thread. The "first" in my post was referring to the soups on that particular object's page.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby cordership3 » February 20th, 2018, 11:00 am

Large rulestrings are again destroying the rectangular purity of the census page.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby Saka » February 23rd, 2018, 11:31 pm

apgluxe has a really hard time classifying this pattern for some reason
x = 2, y = 4, rule = B3ai4aiw5i6ci7e8/S2a3a4acinrt5i6ac7c8
2o$2o$2o$2o!

It's been classified into
  • zz_EXPLOSIVE
  • yl15 (Might be a phantom ghost pattern)
  • PATHOLOGICAL
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x = 17, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2ob2obo5b2o$11b4obo$2bob3o2bo2b3o$bo3b2o4b2o$o2bo2bob2o3b4o$bob2obo5b
o2b2o$2b2o4bobo2b3o$bo3b5ob2obobo$2bo5bob2o$4bob2o2bobobo!

(Check gen 2)
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » February 23rd, 2018, 11:42 pm

Saka wrote:apgluxe has a really hard time classifying this pattern for some reason
x = 2, y = 4, rule = B3ai4aiw5i6ci7e8/S2a3a4acinrt5i6ac7c8
2o$2o$2o$2o!

It's been classified into
  • zz_EXPLOSIVE
  • yl15 (Might be a phantom ghost pattern)
  • PATHOLOGICAL


Note: This pattern actually stabilises into a few small oscillators after around 4500 generations.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby danny » February 24th, 2018, 1:57 am

Saka wrote:[*]yl15 (Might be a phantom ghost pattern)

After a bit of playing around I found said 'ghost pattern', as well as a relative:
x = 261, y = 163, rule = B3ai4aiw5i6ci7e8/S2a3a4acinrt5i6ac7c8
2b2o6b2o$2bo6b4o$9b4o$10b3o$10b2ob3o$10b7o$9b8o$2o7b3ob3o$bo6b5o$8b5o$
9b4o$10b2o39$120b2o$120b2o2$48b2o70b2o$48b2o68b6o$47bo2bo68b4o$48b2o
69b4o$47b4o67b6o$46b6o66b6o20b2o$47b4o67b6o19b4o$47b4o67b6o18b6o$119b
4o20b4o$46b6o68b2o$46b6o$46b6o$47b4o91b6o$143b4o$143b4o$95b4o$9bo38b2o
45b4o21b2o94b2o$8b2o37b4o44b4o21b2o93b4o$47b4o164b4o$48b2o46b2o20b6o$
95b4o20b4o21b2o46b2o22b2o$2o22b2o69b4o21b2o22b2o66bo3b2o3bo$23b4o44b4o
19bob2obo19bo2bo17bo3b2o3bo42b2o18bobob2obobo$2o20bob2obo43b4o19b6o20b
2o21b4o21b2o21b4o18bob4obo$22bob2obo43b4o17b3ob2ob3o18b2o20bob2obo61bo
2b10o2bo$2o18bob6obo41b4o17b10o18b2o21b4o21b2o22b2o15b16o$23b4o66bo6bo
19b2o22b2o20b6o20b2o14b18o$2o21b4o43bo4bo16b10o18b2o43b8o35b18o$24b2o
66b10o64b6o17bob4obo10b20o$2o67bo2b2o2bo12b2ob10ob2o61b6o17bob4obo11b
18o14b2o$64bo4b8o4bo8bob3ob2ob3obo61b8o19b2o14bo2b12o2bo$2o58bo3bo4b8o
4bo3bo7b2o4b2o19b2o43b8o19b2o16bob10obo16b2o$60bo3bo4b8o4bo3bo9b4o20b
4o45b2o22b2o18bob6obo$64bo4b8o4bo13b4o20b4o45b2o44b6o20b2o$69bo2b2o2bo
137b6o$120b2o94b2o21b4o$70bo4bo44b2o116b6o$120b2o116b6o7b4o$71b4o45b2o
93b4o20b4o8b4o$71b4o44bo2bo92b4o18b8o6b4o$71b4o45b2o114b2ob4ob2o7b2o$
71b4o43b6o91b5o17bobo2bobo$119b4o90b8o18b4o$120b2o90bob7ob3o4bo4bo4b4o
4bo4bo4b4o$212b8o2b4o2b3o9b2o9b3o3b4o$120b2o89b8ob6o2b3o20b3o3b4o$119b
4o89b6o4b3o3bobo9b2o9bobo3b4o$119b4o89b9o18b4o$119b4o90b8o$119b4o90bo
2b2o2bo6b4o20b4o$120b2o105b4o7b6o7b4o$118bob2obo92b2o9b4o8b4o8b4o$117b
o2b2o2bo91b2o9b4o8b4o8b4o$118b6o103b4o9b2o9b4o$117bo2b2o2bo91b2o9b4o8b
4o8b4o$118bob2obo92b2o9b4o8b4o8b4o$120b2o105b4o7b6o7b4o$119b4o90bo2b2o
2bo6b4o20b4o$119b4o90b8o$119b4o89b9o18b4o$119b4o89b6o4b3o3bobo9b2o9bob
o3b4o$120b2o89b8ob6o2b3o20b3o3b4o$212b8o2b4o2b3o9b2o9b3o3b4o$120b2o90b
ob7ob3o4bo4bo4b4o4bo4bo4b4o$119b4o90b8o18b4o$71b4o43b6o91b5o17bobo2bob
o$71b4o45b2o114b2ob4ob2o7b2o$71b4o44bo2bo92b4o18b8o6b4o$71b4o45b2o93b
4o20b4o8b4o$120b2o116b6o7b4o$70bo4bo44b2o116b6o$120b2o94b2o21b4o$69bo
2b2o2bo137b6o$64bo4b8o4bo13b4o20b4o45b2o44b6o20b2o$60bo3bo4b8o4bo3bo9b
4o20b4o45b2o22b2o18bob6obo$2o58bo3bo4b8o4bo3bo7b2o4b2o19b2o43b8o19b2o
16bob10obo16b2o$64bo4b8o4bo8bob3ob2ob3obo61b8o19b2o14bo2b12o2bo$2o67bo
2b2o2bo12b2ob10ob2o61b6o17bob4obo11b18o14b2o$24b2o66b10o64b6o17bob4obo
10b20o$2o21b4o43bo4bo16b10o18b2o43b8o35b18o$23b4o66bo6bo19b2o22b2o20b
6o20b2o14b18o$2o18bob6obo41b4o17b10o18b2o21b4o21b2o22b2o15b16o$22bob2o
bo43b4o17b3ob2ob3o18b2o20bob2obo61bo2b10o2bo$2o20bob2obo43b4o19b6o20b
2o21b4o21b2o21b4o18bob4obo$23b4o44b4o19bob2obo19bo2bo17bo3b2o3bo42b2o
18bobob2obobo$2o22b2o69b4o21b2o22b2o66bo3b2o3bo$95b4o20b4o21b2o46b2o
22b2o$48b2o46b2o20b6o$47b4o164b4o$8b2o37b4o44b4o21b2o93b4o$9bo38b2o45b
4o21b2o94b2o$95b4o$143b4o$143b4o$47b4o91b6o$46b6o$46b6o$46b6o68b2o$
119b4o20b4o$47b4o67b6o18b6o$47b4o67b6o19b4o$46b6o66b6o20b2o$47b4o67b6o
$48b2o69b4o$47bo2bo68b4o$48b2o68b6o$48b2o70b2o2$120b2o$120b2o!
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » March 4th, 2018, 10:43 pm

The pattern http://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xp1 ... s3a4a56-i7 isn't a p170 oscillator; in fact, it isn't an oscillator at all, but an unstable pattern.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby Apple Bottom » March 6th, 2018, 7:03 am

77topaz wrote:The pattern http://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xp1 ... s3a4a56-i7 isn't a p170 oscillator; in fact, it isn't an oscillator at all, but an unstable pattern.


On a similar note, and in the same rule, xp2268_2e74zzyzyzyr8es4 isn't actually a period 2268 oscillator:

#C https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/xp2268_2e74zzyzyzyr8es4/b3aij4a5s3a4a56-i7/C1
x = 113, y = 15, rule = B3aij4a5/S3a4a56-i7
2bo$3o$b3o$bo8$110bo$110b3o$109b3o$111bo!


There's definitely something wrong with apgluxe there that's going beyond "generation of symmetric sample soups is bugged".
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 2718281828 » March 22nd, 2018, 3:00 am

I am not sure if this fits well, but:
https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/yl12_2_22_265dde0698064720edf4b164e0b16d95/b2ci3ai4c8s02ae3eijkq4iz5ar6i7e
lists a p22 linear growth pattern. This one:
x = 19, y = 15, rule = B2ci3ai4c8/S02ae3eijkq4iz5ar6i7e
16b2o$5bo11b2o$17bo$12bobo2$4bo3bo7b2o$2bo14bo$15b3o$11b3o$o2bo7bobo$
11b3o2b2o$17b2o$17bo$16bo!

However, it seems to be p44. Why apgsearch classifies it as p22? It is a rather small period.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby mniemiec » March 22nd, 2018, 4:46 am

2718281828 wrote:I am not sure if this fits well, but:
https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/yl12_2_22_265dde0698064720edf4b164e0b16d95/b2ci3ai4c8s02ae3eijkq4iz5ar6i7e
lists a p22 linear growth pattern. This one: ... However, it seems to be p44. Why apgsearch classifies it as p22? It is a rather small period.

Apgsearch classifies oscillators and spaceships by period, but it does not do so for growing patterns. Those are classified by the repeat factor of their populations, which is often the same as their period, but is sometimes a fraction thereof. In this case, however, the period really is 22, aince the puffer possesses glide symmetry, and flips across the horizontal axis every 22 generations. (EDIT: Duh! As 77topaz pointed out this is period 44, mod 22. Oops!)
Last edited by mniemiec on March 22nd, 2018, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » March 22nd, 2018, 5:07 am

The weird thing is that 12 isn't a factor of 22. :?
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby danny » March 22nd, 2018, 12:11 pm

77topaz wrote:The weird thing is that 12 isn't a factor of 22. :?

Well, the first C1 sample soup gives this:
x = 11, y = 8, rule = B2ci3ai4c8/S02ae3eijkq4iz5ar6i7e
8b2o$9bo$5bo2b2o2$9b2o$3o7bo$2bo5b3o$b2o!

Which is p12. So do the 2nd and 3rd. I assume the link is wrong, and 2718281828 is really talking about this puffer.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 2718281828 » March 22nd, 2018, 12:36 pm

danny wrote:I assume the link is wrong, and 2718281828 is really talking about this puffer.


Yes, danny is right. I used the wrong link and figured out the correct one. But as this puffer is glide-symmetric and only the population count is used for determining the period, it makes sense with the explanation of mniemiec that is wrongly classified as yl22.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » March 22nd, 2018, 4:37 pm

mniemiec wrote:In this case, however, the period really is 22, aince the puffer possesses glide symmetry, and flips across the horizontal axis every 22 generations.


That's the mod. The period as a whole would still be 44.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby wwei23 » March 25th, 2018, 6:27 pm

Apgsearch cried wolf:
https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/ov_s16/b3s23
A 16 cell still life can’t possibly be big enough to overflow 40x40, can it?
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby mniemiec » March 26th, 2018, 3:26 am

wwei23 wrote:Apgsearch cried wolf:
https://catagolue.appspot.com/object/ov_s16/b3s23
A 16 cell still life can’t possibly be big enough to overflow 40x40, can it?

A still-life must be an object (or else the pseudo-object filter would eliminate it). In Life, a n-bit still-life can occupy at most n-2xn-4 or n-3xn-3 boxes (snakes or canoes). It is theoretically possible for objects in Moore-neighborhood rules to be more spaced out (e.g. 2n-1x2n-1 with live cells double spaced along a diagonal line, if you have S0), but even then, that would only be a pseudo-still-life.
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Re: Catagolue Oddities

Postby 77topaz » March 26th, 2018, 3:39 am

The problem is, of course, that the pseudo-object filter isn't perfect. Though, that's mostly for OCA; usually it works well for CGoL. I see the one soup is coloured pink, which suggests it's some odd symmetry (inflated, maybe?); that could have to do with it.
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