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Thread for basic questions

For general discussion about Conway's Game of Life.

Re: Thread for basic questions

Are corderships considered elementary or engineered spaceships?
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muzik

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Hi, I'm a newby, although I've been a fan since the 70s when Martin Gardner published the first article about it in Scientific American.

An equation recently appeared in http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... eginning1/
It occurred to me that this equation could be applied to Conway's Life. The equation is:

To be specific, given a "planet" of 1000 km square with cells 1 mm to a side, how many times would you need to randomly restart it to find among the products a glider gun that survives for at least one cycle with 50% probability?

Given assumptions too embarrassingly crude to describe here, but based on the known occurrence frequency of the queen bee oscillator, one in every 285 million particles of ash, I calculate about 650 restarts. Give or take a factor of 10,000. What do you get?
mollwollfumble

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Re: Thread for basic questions

A rule where the cells stay alive with 4 neighbours EXCEPT when it is 4c or 4e... is it notated B*/S*4-c-e or B*/S*4-ce?
Cheers.
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Rhombic

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Re: Thread for basic questions

What are the exact speeds of the 0hd and 10hd Demonoid spaceships? On the wiki and forums, I see a lot of different values on different pages and want to know which one is correct.
Bored of using the Moore neighbourhood for everything? Introducing the Range-2 von Neumann isotropic non-totalistic rulespace!
muzik

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Location: Scotland

Re: Thread for basic questions

A rule where the cells stay alive with 4 neighbours EXCEPT when it is 4c or 4e... is it notated B*/S*4-c-e or B*/S*4-ce?
Cheers.

The latter is the notation used as the minus sign indicates that the given list of neighborhoods should be excluded from the transitions for that total. According to Hensel's original description of the notation, use of the minus sign is optional - it is provided as a convenience to reduce the length of some rule specifications,

Plesae note that the notation used recently on this forum is slightly different: see http://www.ibiblio.org/lifepatterns/neighbors2.html
for the neighborhood specification adopted here.
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wildmyron

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Re: Thread for basic questions

wildmyron wrote:

A rule where the cells stay alive with 4 neighbours EXCEPT when it is 4c or 4e... is it notated B*/S*4-c-e or B*/S*4-ce?
Cheers.

The latter is the notation used as the minus sign indicates that the given list of neighborhoods should be excluded from the transitions for that total. According to Hensel's original description of the notation, use of the minus sign is optional - it is provided as a convenience to reduce the length of some rule specifications,

Plesae note that the notation used recently on this forum is slightly different: see http://www.ibiblio.org/lifepatterns/neighbors2.html
for the neighborhood specification adopted here.

Thank you very much! I read a while ago about someone who suggested coding a program to generate rule tables for these notations. Has it been done? Again, thanks.
SoL : FreeElectronics : DeadlyEnemies : 6a-ite : Rule X3VI
what is “sesame oil”?

Rhombic

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Re: Thread for basic questions

wildmyron wrote:The latter is the notation used as the minus sign indicates that the given list of neighborhoods should be excluded from the transitions for that total. According to Hensel's original description of the notation, use of the minus sign is optional - it is provided as a convenience to reduce the length of some rule specifications,

To clarify this a little more: the minus sign is optional in the sense that there's an equivalent positive way of specifying the same rule, i.e., B*/S*4kainyqjrtwz (if I'm reading the table right). It's not optional in the other sense: you can't just leave out the minus sign, or you'll end up with a rule that's "ONLY IF c or e" instead of "EXCEPT c or e".

[Yes, this is probably obvious.]

The interesting problem, which I don't think has been quite completely addressed yet, is that we don't have a definite "canonical" form of every rule. Some rules (though only relatively few, with entries in the '4' column) could be specified negatively or positively with the same number of characters. I guess my suggestion would be to minimize the number of lowercase letters used, but use a positive list if it will be the same length as a negative list (since that will save one minus sign).

That would mean, for example, that B*/S*4-cekain would be the canonical form of B*/S*4yqjrtwz.

Rhombic wrote:Thank you very much! I read a while ago about someone who suggested coding a program to generate rule tables for these notations. Has it been done? Again, thanks.

This script works okay as far as I have heard.

dvgrn
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Re: Thread for basic questions

An unrelevant question about functionality of golly.

my golly runs superslow when I run pattern under rule 'v3k4_temp:S400' (or any other bounded grid).
where v3k4_temp.rule is specified with
`@RULE v3k4_temp@COLORS0 0 0 01 0 155 1552 200 200 03 200 0 200@TABLEn_states:3neighborhood:vonNeumannsymmetries:permutevar a={1}var b={2}var d={0}var j={0,1,2}j,0,0,0,0,2j,0,0,0,1,1j,0,0,1,1,2j,0,1,1,1,0j,1,1,1,1,0j,2,0,0,0,1j,2,1,0,0,1j,2,1,1,0,0j,2,1,1,1,2j,2,2,0,0,2j,2,2,1,0,0j,2,2,1,1,1j,2,2,2,0,0j,2,2,2,1,1j,2,2,2,2,1`

is there any way to fix this?
shouldsee

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Re: Thread for basic questions

shouldsee wrote:An unrelevant question about functionality of golly.

my golly runs superslow when I run pattern under rule 'v3k4_temp:S400' (or any other bounded grid)...
is there any way to fix this?

Not really -- at least, not without rewriting bounded-grid support in Golly. As other threads have mentioned, Golly doesn't really support bounded grids, it only tolerates them... Golly does lots of extra processing all around the edges to make any bounded grid work, so for large bounded grids a simulation can be orders of magnitude slower than an unbounded version.

There is a workaround available for non-wrapping grids (:Px,y) only, if you're willing to write more complex rules. Add an additional "boundary" state to the rule definition, set the rule up so that a boundary cell counts as off but never dies itself, and draw a boundary of whatever size you want around the pattern you want to simulate.

Golly can run that kind of thing with the HashLife algorithm at its usual ridiculous speeds, for reasonable-sized not-too-random patterns. Anyway it will be enormously faster than using a bounded grid.

dvgrn
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Re: Thread for basic questions

muzik wrote:What are the exact speeds of the 0hd and 10hd Demonoid spaceships? On the wiki and forums, I see a lot of different values on different pages and want to know which one is correct.

pls?

For the 10hd I've seen c/12700 and 65c/818356, and for the 0hd I've seen 13c/96228 and 65c/438852...

I want the wiki to be correct
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muzik

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Re: Thread for basic questions

dvgrn wrote:
shouldsee wrote:An unrelevant question about functionality of golly.

my golly runs superslow when I run pattern under rule 'v3k4_temp:S400' (or any other bounded grid)...
is there any way to fix this?

Not really -- at least, not without rewriting bounded-grid support in Golly. As other threads have mentioned, Golly doesn't really support bounded grids, it only tolerates them... Golly does lots of extra processing all around the edges to make any bounded grid work, so for large bounded grids a simulation can be orders of magnitude slower than an unbounded version.

There is a workaround available for non-wrapping grids (:Px,y) only, if you're willing to write more complex rules. Add an additional "boundary" state to the rule definition, set the rule up so that a boundary cell counts as off but never dies itself, and draw a boundary of whatever size you want around the pattern you want to simulate.

Golly can run that kind of thing with the HashLife algorithm at its usual ridiculous speeds, for reasonable-sized not-too-random patterns. Anyway it will be enormously faster than using a bounded grid.

Let me clarify my question.

The problem is not being too slow. My golly almost crash when I tried to run a such rule. If I was running any other rule on S300 it would be perfectly fine.

This kind of rule is special where 0-cell spontaneous transit to other state, which cause the whole universe to be filled, which means it's a lot easier to test them on bounded grids. Disappointedly it's not working that way and I would really know is there any way around to test such rule on a finite space. (otherwise it would explode in infinite space very shortly)

Kind regards
shouldsee

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Re: Thread for basic questions

muzik wrote:For the 10hd I've seen c/12700 and 65c/818356, and for the 0hd I've seen 13c/96228 and 65c/438852...

Those are all correct.

For 0hd, the Demonoid gun that chris_c built shoots 13c/96228 0hd Demonoids. But the most optimized 0hd Demonoid is period 438852.

-- Really you could just say 65c/(438852+8N)... except nowadays we could build a 0hd Demonoid to be quite a bit faster than 65c/438852.

For the 10hd case, the sample that chris_c and I built was c/12700, but the underlying adjustable mechanism is 130c/(1636712+16N), also known as 65c/(818356+8N). The period is adjustable to 1636712+16N.

The 16N is basically because the 10hd Demonoid had to build two replicator units to get back to where it started. But the 10hd construction library was a little more efficient, which explains why 818356 is less than 2*438852.

dvgrn
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Re: Thread for basic questions

dvgrn wrote:
muzik wrote:For the 10hd I've seen c/12700 and 65c/818356, and for the 0hd I've seen 13c/96228 and 65c/438852...
For 0hd, the Demonoid gun that chris_c built shoots 13c/96228 0hd Demonoids. But the most optimized 0hd Demonoid is period 438852.

So the 13c/96228 Demonoid is a different spaceship to the other two?
Bored of using the Moore neighbourhood for everything? Introducing the Range-2 von Neumann isotropic non-totalistic rulespace!
muzik

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Re: Thread for basic questions

shouldsee wrote:The problem is not being too slow. My golly almost crash when I tried to run a such rule. If I was running any other rule on S300 it would be perfectly fine.

This kind of rule is special where 0-cell spontaneous transit to other state, which cause the whole universe to be filled, which means it's a lot easier to test them on bounded grids. Disappointedly it's not working that way and I would really know is there any way around to test such rule on a finite space. (otherwise it would explode in infinite space very shortly)

Hmm, you're right -- Golly's slowness with this rule on a bounded grid is more like painful slowness squared, not just the usual painful slowness of bounded grids.

And with the equivalent of a B0 transition in the rule, my suggestion of drawing a boundary around the pattern is not going to do very much good!

The only workaround I can think of offhand would be to write a script to handle long runs of patterns. Basically, run for 3N ticks, for some reasonable value of N, and then copy out the center part of the pattern and start running it in a new universe. Otherwise it looks like the rule is susceptible to patches of chaos in the corners of the big blocks that Golly generates.

Alternatively, you could write with a new rule that simulates every third generation of this one. That should avoid the problem with flickering infinite explosions.

A small c/3 spaceship showed up while I was playing around with this rule -- you've probably already seen it:

`x = 5, y = 2, rule = v3k4_temp.A.A\$B.B.B!`

dvgrn
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Re: Thread for basic questions

dvgrn wrote:And with the equivalent of a B0 transition in the rule, my suggestion of drawing a boundary around the pattern is not going to do very much good!

While this exact thing will not work, there is a solution along similar lines. Instead of behaving like a constantly off cell, the new cell state should behave like state 0, and state 0 should never change. Then you can draw a solid rectangle with the new state and simulate patterns inside. If you don't get what I mean, see Golly>Patterns>Loops>Evoloop-finite.rle.
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Alexey_Nigin

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Alexey_Nigin wrote:
dvgrn wrote:And with the equivalent of a B0 transition in the rule, my suggestion of drawing a boundary around the pattern is not going to do very much good!

While this exact thing will not work, there is a solution along similar lines. Instead of behaving like a constantly off cell, the new cell state should behave like state 0, and state 0 should never change. Then you can draw a solid rectangle with the new state and simulate patterns inside. If you don't get what I mean, see Golly>Patterns>Loops>Evoloop-finite.rle.

Thanks for suggestion.

It took me 10 mins to realise this idea is exactly the same as space fabrication,
But it worked.

Modified rule
`@RULE v3k4_temp@COLORS0 0 0 01 0 155 1552 200 200 03 200 0 200@TABLEn_states:4neighborhood:vonNeumannsymmetries:permutevar a={1}var b={2}var d={3}var j={1,2,3}j,d,d,d,d,2j,d,d,d,1,1j,d,d,1,1,2j,d,1,1,1,dj,1,1,1,1,dj,2,d,d,d,1j,2,1,d,d,1j,2,1,1,d,dj,2,1,1,1,2j,2,2,d,d,2j,2,2,1,d,dj,2,2,1,1,1j,2,2,2,d,dj,2,2,2,1,1j,2,2,2,2,1`

As to that small spaceship, it was one of the reason that I want to test this rule.
shouldsee

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Just wanting to settle this old argument hopefully once and for all: are corderships considered engineered or elementary?

I've shifted my viewpoint to calling them engineered now. Although they don't resemble the existing 17c/45, 31c/240 and (23,5)c/79 caterpillars (switch engines don't act as crawlers), they're still constructed of strategically placed smaller patterns. They fit with the engineered theme of their speeds being fixed by their design.

I'd say they're just borderline elementary.

Spaghetti monster is still definitely elementary. Can't seperate that into crawlers, etc.
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muzik

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Re: Thread for basic questions

I am wondering if breeders such as this one are notable enough to post, or they are kind of trivial.

If they are notable enough where should I post them?

`x = 584, y = 345, rule = 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This is slightly of topic to this forum, but I could not find a better forum to put it.

Goldtiger997

Posts: 538
Joined: June 21st, 2016, 8:00 am
Location: 11.329903°N 142.199305°E

Re: Thread for basic questions

Goldtiger997 wrote:I am wondering if breeders such as this one are notable enough to post, or they are kind of trivial.
Nice assembly, but I am afraid that it belongs to the "doable by prior art" side... Well, the synthesis of the puffer train is known, the long-period rake is known, and the breeder doesn't seem to exhibit new interesting behavior nor does it have some other special property (like being the smallest)... Still, I think these experience are the building blocks of new nontrivial constructions.
Best wishes to you, Scorbie

Scorbie

Posts: 1381
Joined: December 7th, 2013, 1:05 am

Re: Thread for basic questions

Scorbie wrote:
Goldtiger997 wrote:I am wondering if breeders such as this one are notable enough to post, or they are kind of trivial.
Nice assembly, but I am afraid that it belongs to the "doable by prior art" side...

Sounds about right. Still, the original question was "notable enough to post" -- and of course it's notable enough to post!

It isn't notable enough to attach an official name to, or give it its own page on the LifeWiki, or otherwise make a really huge deal about.

But it's certainly nice to see new constructions like this pop up on the forums, either on one of the all-purpose threads, or on a newly created thread just to see if other people get interested in making modifications -- changing the period to put the puffers closer together so that their ash overlaps, for example, to make as big and chaotic a mess as possible.

dvgrn
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Can Golly do asynchronous updating?
shouldsee

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Re: Thread for basic questions

shouldsee wrote:Can Golly do asynchronous updating?

Golly uses a single thread for calculating generations, rendering patterns, running scripts, etc., so the answer is no (assuming I've understood your question).

Andrew
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Switch Engine and Queen Bee are two small patterns that have finite lifetime but make copies of themselves that live long enough to make another copy of the original.

Are there others like that?
mollwollfumble

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Re: Thread for basic questions

House is pretty close.

`x = 5, y = 12, rule = LifeHistory2A.2A\$A3.A\$.3A7\$2D.2D\$D3.D\$.3D!`
Bored of using the Moore neighbourhood for everything? Introducing the Range-2 von Neumann isotropic non-totalistic rulespace!
muzik

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Any known stretchers of this wick?

`x = 54, y = 5, rule = B3/S232bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo\$54o2\$54o\$2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo2bo!`
Bored of using the Moore neighbourhood for everything? Introducing the Range-2 von Neumann isotropic non-totalistic rulespace!
muzik

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Joined: January 28th, 2016, 2:47 pm
Location: Scotland

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