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Stable Life?

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Stable Life?

Postby Elithrion » February 4th, 2009, 1:15 am

[edited, so the topic is phrased much more sensibly]

Does every pattern in life stabilise(/become predictable) eventually? If so, is it because of its specific rules, or is it because it's only two dimensional instead of three?
(I notice that rules like maze or flakes don't stabilise per se, but they seem to grow somewhat predictably, so I'm not sure if they will still qualify as "unstable" under a more general definition)
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby PM 2Ring » March 26th, 2009, 12:03 pm

Elithrion wrote:Does every pattern in life stabilise(/become predictable) eventually?

I guess it depends on how you want to define "predictable". We can't predict whether a given Turing machine will halt, and we can build Turing machines in Life.

For a simpler example, there is a Life pattern that generates twin primes. It is not known whether there are an infinite number of twin primes (although it's generally suspected that there are), so we don't know what the ultimate behaviour of the twin prime generator is.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Elithrion » March 26th, 2009, 12:42 pm

Hmm... thanks. I guess I sort of want to define it so the answer is "yes" :wink: Alternatively, at the time I think I was wondering why don't we get a methuselah that goes on (and remains interesting) forever. In hindsight, I should have probably made some analogy with entropy, as that seems appropriate.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby FractalFusion » March 27th, 2009, 2:38 pm

Elithrion wrote:Alternatively, at the time I think I was wondering why don't we get a methuselah that goes on (and remains interesting) forever.

You mean something which grows forever creating a chaotic mess?

It's because of the specific rule, although the tendencies for cellular automata to explode or not may be influenced by birth or survival conditions.

Rules with B1 always explode. B1 rules tend to have quadratic sawteeth, replicators, and nicely-formed patterns.
Rules with B2 and not B1 tend to explode. Seeds is a well-known example.
Rules with B3 and not B1 or B2 may or may not explode. Turning on birth or survival rules tends to make it more likely to explode, but there are exceptions.
Rules without B1, B2, or B3 never explode.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Elithrion » March 27th, 2009, 2:49 pm

FractalFusion wrote:You mean something which grows forever creating a chaotic mess?

Actually, not quite. I mean a chaotic mess, but not necessarily growing (I'd even say preferably not having any tendency to consistently expand or contract), and if it does explode, it should do that chaotically (i.e. not via puffers, etc).
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Nathaniel » March 27th, 2009, 3:00 pm

Elithrion wrote:Actually, not quite. I mean a chaotic mess, but not necessarily growing.


Well, if you had forever contained within a finite bounding box, then you necessarily have that it oscillates (and thus isn't very chaotic), because there are only finitely-many possible configurations within that bounding box. Thus if it doesn't grow, then it would at least need to move, and even then a similar argument shows that it would have to be (or contain) a spaceship then. Thus, if your pattern doesn't grow to arbitrarily large populations, it MUST eventually settle into a collection of spaceships, oscillators and still lifes.

Similarly, if it infinitely often returned to a given bounding box, it must be oscillating overall. So if something is going to look "chaotic" in the sense that I think you want, I think it really must be growing (and possibly contracting a little bit, but not enough to undo the growth) and growing (and possibly contracting a little bit) and growing... off to infinity.

Anyways, the fact that Life doesn't seem to do that is certainly a byproduct of the rule itself, since 34/34 Life tends to explode in unpredictable ways from random starting patterns.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Elithrion » March 27th, 2009, 3:08 pm

Nathaniel wrote:Well, if you had forever contained within a finite bounding box, then you necessarily have that it oscillates (and thus isn't very chaotic), because there are only finitely-many possible configurations within that bounding box.

That's not, strictly speaking, true, is it? Maybe (play along here) it has 3 cells first, then 1, then 4, then 1, then 5, then 9, then 2, then 6, then 5, then 3, then 5, etc. Doesn't have to oscillate, at least if there are no rules.

Hmm... but other than that, all right, I guess.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Nathaniel » March 27th, 2009, 3:20 pm

Elithrion wrote:
Nathaniel wrote:Well, if you had forever contained within a finite bounding box, then you necessarily have that it oscillates (and thus isn't very chaotic), because there are only finitely-many possible configurations within that bounding box.

That's not, strictly speaking, true, is it? Maybe (play along here) it has 3 cells first, then 1, then 4, then 1, then 5, then 9, then 2, then 6, then 5, then 3, then 5, etc. Doesn't have to oscillate, at least if there are no rules.

Hmm... but other than that, all right, I guess.


By fixed bounding box, I mean fixed not only in size but also in space. So like if you claim that there should be a "chaotic" pattern that lives within a 50-by-50 box centered at the origin, then I claim that any such pattern must actually be an oscillator with period at most 2^(50*50) (because there *are* rules, as soon as it returns to a previously-seen state, it must evolve the same as it did the first time it was at that state).

So thus we know that for it to be "chaotic", parts of it must constantly move to new locations. Etc.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Elithrion » March 27th, 2009, 3:37 pm

Hmm... okay, that makes sense. If it sits there it's like a cycle with 2^(50*50) elements, and the biggest oscillator you can have is the biggest disjoint cycle in it. And I dare say it's really weird that I found that statement to be the more intuitive explanation of the matter...
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby dvgrn » May 30th, 2009, 12:42 am

A couple of years ago Bill Gosper got interested in what he called "novelty generators" -- Life patterns whose interactions became more and more complex over time, apparently without limit. Some example starting patterns are given at

http://pentadecathlon.com/lifenews/2006 ... lly_1.html

Nick Gotts has documented many more on his weblog, at

http://nickgotts-eventful.blogspot.com/

It's not absolutely clear that the novelty _never_ dies out, for any of these patterns -- some of Gosper's extended experiments with Golly have looked good for a long time, but eventually settled into predictability after billions or trillions of generations. But there are a lot of possible novelty generators, so it seems possible that some of them might keep the novelty going indefinitely.

As far as methuselahs go, it seems as if there ought to be longer- and longer-lived methuselahs as the size of the starting pattern gets bigger. For example, if you only worry about the number of ON cells you're starting with, and never mind the starting bounding box size -- you might get a classic-looking methuselah that breaks longevity records by running a search near the last active edge of the current longest-lived methuselah. Of the various still lifes and various locations that can modify the active reaction, pick the longest-lived result... and add another still-life when that one dies out. I would guess you could come up with a very sparse-looking initial condition that would blow up spectacularly, and would last as long as you cared to keep the search going... the search space is huge.

But then, even the search space of, say, 10x10 starting patterns is probably too big to finish testing for methuselahs before the heat death of the Universe -- at least by brute force simulation. Any number of surprises could lurk in there. Given Life patterns' statistical tendency to settle down, I guess I'd be surprised if a small seed could keep expanding chaotically all the way to infinity -- but it seems likely that for any given bounding box, there will be a starting pattern that takes up only a small fraction of that bounding box, but expands chaotically to overflow it. ("Chaotically" is key -- just making one or more switch engines doesn't count. Gosper's and Nick Gotts' experiments have shown that these are quite commonly generated in large sparse areas of random glider collisions -- much more common than in random soups, of course, because a switch engine will generally only survive if it's pointing into empty space.)
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Elithrion » May 30th, 2009, 9:29 pm

Ah, thanks! That's pretty much exactly what I was wondering about.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby calcyman » June 13th, 2009, 4:07 pm

Dave Greene discovered a counter-example to popular belief, IceNine, a massive seed that grows very slowly, quadratically, and unstoppably. This is characteristic of a rule like Seeds or 34 Life, except IceNine requires a much larger critical mass (about 10 megapixels). Yes, this does grow irregularly, without using puffers or guns.

More surprisingly, IceNine emerges (and takes over) every arbitrarily large random universe. This could technically classify Life as being an 'chaotically expanding' rule. (!)


And that proves that Wolfram's classification of cellular automata doesn't work - a rule can behave differently at different scales. This is analogous to how the microscopic world is subject to quantum mechanics; the macroscopic world is instead controlled by general relativity.


Unfortunately, both IceNine and the program used to find it have mysteriously disappeared, and the only online copy (a 11.9 MB RLE file) was censored as non-standard text, suspected to be a virus.

The only way of finding it is to run an immense universe for ages in a powerful Life simulator until it emerges. Don't try this at home. :)

Dave Greene found it using a special-purpose program he wrote, which he coined the 'alternate-universe oscilloscope'.



On Feb. 23, 2008, Dave Greene wrote:

Every sufficiently large and ancient B3/S23 universe observed so far
turns out to be full of this weird agar, which expands in all
directions through random ash at c/137. IceNine seems to absorb
blocks and blinkers particularly well, due to a complicated froth of
sparks at its front lines -- not generated by glider collisions, but
by a lucky accident of the agar's internal structure.

When the expanding front touches an active pattern that it can't
immediately annihilate, the pattern "dies back" a short distance at
near lightspeed, leaving behind a protective scattering of blocks;
behind the blocks the front stabilizes and starts expanding again.
Converging IceNine fronts usually cause small diebacks that stabilize
as small defects in an apparent quasicrystalline structure.

And before you all ask, my alternate-universe oscilloscope was
repossessed by the Outsiders the other day, so unfortunately I can't
lend it out. But there didn't seem to be anything but IceNine out
there anyway --
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Andrew » June 13th, 2009, 8:59 pm

Dave Greene discovered IceNine? I thought it was Kilgore Trout.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby MadMan » June 14th, 2009, 12:26 pm

OK, It is I, MadMan, a new chatty chatter. I've been looking for a home computer before they even invented them. Once they were invented, I did a lot of research in Life, and accumulated 51 volumes of 10 box/inch graph paper. I found many diehards (and super-diehards), long-term ancestors (and super-ancestors), conservative reactions (like the Repulsars and an infinity of oscillators based on them), unusual censuses and my potluck approach confirmed the frequency of naturally occuring patterns reported in the long-defunct Lifeline magazine. I lost a few promising ancestors due to memory probs and garbled notes. I never got into the habit of filling paper with every pattern I tried and I had only limited computer space on my Apple ][.

It is now 2009, and my only remembered sourse of the right kind of graph paper dried up c.2000 when Mr. Turner did the skip and the stationary store was finally taken by the town (for tax delinquincy app.). It is now a herb store. useless to me (like the book store I used to haunt is now a clothing store!). A cellar flood in 2006 ruined most of my volumes, but I was able to rebuild and now I have 30 volumes including discoveries made on the Internet. I, however, can no longer multitask. My software company went out of business when the Apple ][ was no longer made (not one sale was made !) and I'm old.

One of the new patterns is the Spacefiller which throws all my prior conclusions about Life pattern evolution into a mess: it never stabilizes but endlessly generates a dense agar. Two of the generators act like P4 spaceships (horizontal), and the other 2 like P2 spaceships (vertical). They never pull away from the agar they generate. I found this 189-bit pattern on the Internet. I had PREVIOUSLY assumed that life patterns will stabilize in the following ways (1) they vanish, (2) they become a census of still-lifes, oscillators, gliders and spaceships (ancestors to a single object, or 2 or more of the same object are special cases), and (3) They become guns or puffer trains whose periodic output becomes totally predictable, as (2) type. The Spacefillers and Stretchers violate this assumption !


0--------- This super-Diehard takes 215 gen. to die !-
000-00----
------00--
-0-------
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby MadMan » June 14th, 2009, 12:43 pm

Andrew posted Kok's Galaxy, a beautiful [color=#408000]P8 [color=#FF0000]oscillator. It doesn't have the static buffers that too many artificial oscillators use. Odd that out of the infinity of oscillators , only the Blinker, the Pulsar ([color=#408000]P3[color=#FF0000]) the Beacon, the Toad and very occasionally the Clock ever occur naturally. The Tumbler might occur if the dice are just a bit loaded, but I doubt if it occurs in a totally open field.

[/color][/color][/color][/color]OK, the recent discovery of a P37 oscillator (not usuably depicted in this website, tho. See June,'09 news entry for useless depiction) prompts me to depict my lead towards a P19 oscillator (none are found yet).

..........000 In 19 gen., the latent Honeyfarm reappears, but the blinkers are gone as if they never were. Their meddling delayed the maturing
.............. of the latent Honeyfarm 19 gen. Now - if something can be made to oscillate 19 gen., by removing a blinker from its active matter,
......000.... we can then close the gap at p=19.
.....0....0..
....0......0.
....0......0.
....0......0.
.....0....0..
......000...
.............
..000.......
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby PM 2Ring » June 15th, 2009, 10:49 am

Greetings, MadMan!

I was also playing with Life in the early days. Before I got a computer, I'd evolve patterns on the bathroom floor tiles, using plasticine (modeling clay) to mark the cells. I wrote some Life programs on the early home computers, but never did any systematic research. When I "rediscovered" Life about a decade ago, the plethora of amazing patterns was quite mind-blowing.

Sorry to hear about your lost archives. Graph paper isn't so easy to find these days. But if you have a laser printer, it's not too expensive to make your own. I can send you a PostScript or PDF file that prints graph paper, if you're interested. Or maybe you could consider keeping your archives in electronic format, so they can be shared more easily... :)
They become guns or puffer trains whose periodic output becomes totally predictable,

Even these structures aren't totally predictable, since they may do things that we can't predict with current mathematical knowledge. For example, here's the twin prime generator, devised by Dean Hickerson (from Golly/Patterns/miscellaneous), which I mentioned earlier in this thread.
#C Twin prime generator
#C A LWSS escapes past the p240 gun about generation 720n+420 iff
#C both 6n-1 and 6n+1 are prime.
#C Dean Hickerson, drhickerson@ucdavis.edu  9 September 1994
#C From Jason Summers' "jslife" pattern collection.
x = 440, y = 294, rule = B3/S23
412boo$410booboo13boo$410b4o13b4o$411boo14booboo$93b3o11b3o319boo$93bo
bbo10bobbo$93bo6b3o4bo16b3o11b3o$93bo5bobbo4bo15bobbo10bobbo$94bo4boob
o5bo17bo4b3o6bo285boo$126bo4bobbo5bo284bobbo$125bo5boboo4bo285bobboo$
424bobboo$99bo8bo315b4o$99bobo5b3o278bo7bo$107boboo14bo8bo254bo7boo$
100bobbo4b3o13b3o5bobo249bo4bo6boo30boo$101b3o4boo13boobo258b5o29b4o4b
4o$102bo20b3o4bobbo280bo3bo3bo4booboo$124boo4b3o282bo6bo6boo$131bo279b
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3o25bo274bo13bo$105bobbo3bobbo25bo272bo18bo$108bo3bo6b3o3b3o253bo49bo$
96b3o9bo3bo5bobbo3bobbo253boo47bobboo$98bo8bo5bo7bo3bo255boo47bo5bo$
97bo12bo10bo3bo9b3o293bobobboo$110bo9bo5bo8bo295bo3boo$109bobo11bo12bo
296b3o$101b3o19bo$76bo13bo12bo18bobo$75b3o11b3o10bo27b3o303boo$75boboo
4bo5boboo37bo12bo13bo277b4o$76b3o3b3o5b3o38bo10b3o11b3o245bo13boo15boo
boo$76boo3boobbo4boo49boobo5bo4boobo244bo13b4o16boo$81bo3bo24b3o28b3o
5b3o3b3o245b3o11booboo$81boboo57boo4bobboo3boo261boo$81boo38b3o24bo3bo
$149boobo213bo$75b3o73boo214boo42boo$74bobbo288boo41booboo$77bo78b3o
250b4o$77bo78bobbo246bo3boo$76bo79bo248boo$156bo249bo3boo$102b3o52bo
251b4o$102bobbo303booboo$102bo26b3o279boo$92bo9bo25bobbo227bo$91b3o8bo
28bo226bo$55b3o11b3o19boboo8bo27bo9bo216b3o36b4o$54bobbo10bobbo20b3o
36bo8b3o253bo3bo$57bo4b3o6bo20boo36bo8boobo239boo16bo$57bo4bobbo5bo67b
3o209bo21b4o4b4o14bo$56bo4bo8bo69boo21bo13bo9boo163boo18bo3bo4booboo$
97bo5bo58b3o11b3o7b4o161boo23bo6boo$96b3o3b3o57boboo4bo5boboo6booboo
184bo$62boo31boobo3boboo4boo18bo5bo26b3o3b3o5b3o8boo189bo$62bo7bo24b3o
5b3o4bobo16b3o3b3o25boo3boobbo4boo198bo$69b3o24boo5boo6boo9boo4boobo3b
oboo29bo3bo28bo175bobboo$68boobo49bobo4b3o5b3o29boboo30bo173bo5bo$68b
3o29bo20boo6boo5boo30boo28bo3bo174bobobboo$69boo28b3o97b4o174bo3boo$
98bo3bo30bo28b3o26bobb3o117bo64b3o$132b3o26bobbo25boobbobo116bo$72bo5b
o52bo3bo28bo26bobb3o116b3o$71b3o3b3o18booboo61bo34b4o179boo$53b3o15bob
ooboobo20bo62bo34bo3bo178b4o25boo$53bobbo15b3ob3o52booboo66bo133bo27b
oo15booboo15b4o4b4o$53bo18boo3boo33bo20bo67bo135boo24b4o16boo15bo3bo4b
ooboo$53bo57boo41b3o3b3o16bo29bo126boo25booboo36bo6boo$54bo20bo35bobo
7bo31bobbo3bobbo14b3o29bo154boo36bo$74bobo10bo33boo33bo3bo17b3o25bo3bo
16bo$73bo3bo9boo31bobo33bo3bo19bo26b4o17bo$58boo14bobo9bobo57bo8bo5bo
16bobo43bo3bo128boo49boo$57bobo14b3o68boo11bo19bo46b4o126booboo48bobo$
59bo85bobo10bo192bo3b4o49boboo$157bobo16bo172boobo3boo51boo$82b3o90boo
92bo79bo3bo55bo$82bobbo89bobo90bo80boobo3boo$82bo66b3o72b3o41b3o80bo3b
4o$82bo65bobbo74bo128booboo50boo$83bo67bo72bobo130boo50b4o$151bo60bo
11boo166boo15booboo$150bo59bobbo177b4o16boo$210bobbo129b4o44booboo$
211bo5boo8bo114bo3bo46boo$216b4o8bo117bo$216booboo3bo3bo116bo$73boo
143boo5b4o156boo$72bobo308booboo$67b3o4bo304bo3b4o$67bobbo90bo215boobo
3boo$67bo92boo215bo3bo$67bo92bobo10bo13bo189boobo3boo$67bo104b3o11b3o
52bo29bo29bo29bo47bo3b4o$68bo103boboo4bo5boboo51b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o49b
ooboo$173b3o3b3o5b3o54bo29bo29bo29bo50boo11boo$173boo3boobbo4boo54boo
28boo28boo28boo19bo39b4oboo$178booboo172bo38b6o$178bobb3o165bo5bo15b4o
20b4o$179boboo167b6o14bo3bo29boo$181bo192bo28b4o$172b3obbo3bo191bo29b
ooboo$171bobbo3bobo224boo$174bo4bo221bo$174bo71boo28boo28boo28boo28boo
31bobo$173bo72bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo27bobo32bo$164b3o80boo28boo28boo
28boo28boo36boo$163bobbo236booboo$166bo3b3o230b4o$166bo3bobbo15bo214b
oo$166bo3bo17b3o194boo8b4o$166bo3bo16boobo192booboo6b6o$165bo5bo15b3o
135boo52bo3b4o7b4oboo$188boo134b4o46boobbobo3boo12boo$167b3o154booboo
44bobboo3bo$167bobo76boo28boo28boo18boo46boobbobo3boo$167b3o76bobo27bo
bo27bobo10bobo57bo3b4o$247boo28boo22boo4boo9bobboo24boo34booboo$301bo
17bobo16b4o4b4o35boo5boo5b4o$145b3o11b3o5b3o156boo9bo3bo4booboo9bo29b
ooboo3bo3bo$145bobbo10bobbo5bo155booboo12bo6boo11bo28b4o8bo$145bo6b3o
4bo164b4o12bo15bo4bo29boo8bo$145bo5bobbo4bo140b3o14bo7boo30b5o$146bo4b
oobo5bo129b4o5b5o13boo16bo$289bo3bo5b3oboo11bobo12bo3bo62boo$293bo8boo
26bo3bo9bo52bobbo$285bo6bo38bo12b6o42boo3bobbo$152boo6bo88bo29bo7b3o
32bo9boo9bob3o44bo3booboo$152bo6b3o86boo28boo5bo6bo29boo13boo9bo48boo$
159boboo130bo27bobo13bo37b3o$160b3o126bo3bo83bo$107boo6boo43boo128b4o
53boo27bo$106b4o4b4o228b4o49b4o$106booboo3booboo227booboo33bo13bo3bo$
108boo6boo7boo47b3o120b4o30boo15boo35bo16bo$123booboo46bobbo118bo3bo
28booboo47bo3bo15bo$123b4o16b3o28bo125bo14b4o10b4o49b4o$124boo16bobbo
28bo9boo8bo104bo14bo3bo11boo$145bo28bo8b4o8bo51bo70bo$145bo29bo7booboo
3bo3bo52bo68bo$120b4o20bo40boo5b4o48bo3bo$116boobbobboo120b4o$117bo3bo
bboo114b3o25boo39boo3boo$121bobbo113booboo24b4o36bo6bobo$122boo67bo31b
oo15b3o24booboo34bobbo6bo$146boo44boo30boo19b4o20boo34boo7b3o$81b5o58b
ooboo44bo29bo20bo3bo5bo51boo$80bo4bo31bo26b4o13b3o29bo54bo6bo6boo$85bo
32bo6boo18boo7bo6bobbo27bo54bo3bo3bo4booboo$84bo29bo3bo4booboo24bobo6b
o56b5o29b4o4b4o$108b4o3b4o4b4o26boo6bo55bo4bo38boo45boo5b4o$107bo3bo
12boo36bo31bo27bo83booboo3bo3bo$111bo83bo25bo33bo50b4o8bo$103boobbobbo
65bo14bo3bo11boo45bo3b3o46boo8bo$103b3o71bo14b4o10b4o43bo3bob3o$103boo
bbobbo62bo3bo28booboo43bo6boo$111bo62b4o30boo15boo28b5obo$107bo3bo111b
ooboo29b4o$108b4o89bobo19b4o31bo$167b4o31boo20boo12boo$166bo3bo31bo36b
oo$170bo67bo23boo$162boobbobbo51b3o20boo14booboo$162b3o31bobo20bo3boo
18b4o13b4o$162boobbobbo27boo20bobobboo17booboo13boo$170bo8boo16bo20bo
5bo20boo$166bo3bo5b3oboo37bobboo$167b4o5b5o38bo$177b3o22boo17bo$201b4o
12bo$201booboo12bo6boo$194bobbo5boo9bo3bo4booboo$185boobbo4bo3bo16b4o
4b4o$170boo12bobbobbobbo4boo24boo$169bobo13boobb3obbo3bo$156boo11boo
14b3obbo3bobbo5boo$155bobo31bo11booboo$157bo43b4o$202boo3$200boo$155bo
43b4o$153bobo31bo11booboo$154boo11boo14b3obbo3bobbo5boo$167bobo13boobb
3obbo3bo$168boo12bobbobbobbo4boo24boo$183boobbo4bo3bo16b4o4b4o$192bobb
o5boo9bo3bo4booboo$199booboo12bo6boo$199b4o12bo$103bo71b3o22boo17bo$
103boo60b4o5b5o38bo$102bobo59bo3bo5b3oboo37bobboo$168bo8boo16bo20bo5bo
$160boobbobbo27boo20bobobboo$160b3o31bobo20bo3boo$160boobbobbo51b3o$
168bo$164bo3bo31bo$165b4o31boo20boo$105boo92bobo19b4o$b6o31boo63booboo
113booboo$o5bo28b3oboo58bo3b4o65b4o30boo15boo$6bo28b5o54boobbobo3boo
65bo3bo28booboo$5bo30b3o54bobboo3bo73bo14b4o10b4o$94boobbobo3boo68bo
14bo3bo11boo$99bo3b4o86bo$103booboo84bo$105boo5boo5b4o28boo$80bo29boob
oo3bo3bo27bobo$81bo28b4o8bo20boo7bo37bo$76bo4bo29boo8bo20b4o45bo83bo$
77b5o60booboo44bo84bo$144boo44boo79bo4bo20boo8bo$119bo69bo82b5o19b4o8b
o$120bo175booboo3bo3bo$115bo4bo177boo5b4o$107bo6boo3boo$105b3o10bo64b
oo5b4o$104bo76booboo3bo3bo107bobo$104boo75b4o8bo97boo6boo3bo$182boo8bo
98bobo5b3oboboo$119b4o170boo4b3o4bo$104bo13bo3bo169bo9bo3bo$105bo16bo
180b3o$101bo3bo15bo181bo$102b4o$307bo$297boo9bo$294b3oboo4bo3bo$294b5o
6b4o$265boo4boo22b3o$265bo3booboo$269b4o16boo$270boo15booboo$287b4o$
135boo151boo$60bo73b4o$59bobo65bobo4booboo$49boo7boboo74boo15boo132bo$
48bobo6booboo10boo54bo22booboo94b3o34boo$47bo6b3oboboo11bo54bo22b4o94b
5o32boboo$38bo8bobbobbobbobbobo66bo23boo95b3oboo31bobo$38boo7bo6boo4bo
191boo32boo$48bobo$49boo17boo58bo22bo$69bo58bo22boo128bo$61bobo64bo21b
oboo113boo13bo6boo$62boo86bobo113bobo9bo3bo4booboo3boo8bo$62bo64bobo
20boo116bo10b4o4b4o3b4o8bo$288boo4booboo3bo3bo$296boo5b4o$67b3o75bo
126boo$81boo63bo6boo116bobo$81bobo58bo3bo4booboo117bo$83bo41boo16b4o4b
4o146boo$83boo38booboo24boo146booboo$123b4o36boo112boo22bobbo$77boo45b
oo36b4o110bobo22bobbo$77bobo82booboo111bo23boo$79bo84boo$62boo15boo76b
obo$63boo91bobboo121boo21bo$62bo94bobo121bobo22bo$164boo117bo3bo14bo3b
o$162booboo3boo8bo105bo3bo12b4o$162b4o3b4o8bo104bobboo$163boo4booboo3b
o3bo109bo$55bo80b5o30boo5b4o105boo$55boo78bo4bo$43bobo8bobo83bo$43bo3b
o91bo$33boo12bo10boo117bo$33bo14bo7bobbo118boo$47bo7bo12bo110bo$43bo3b
o7bo11boo110bo$43bobo9bo122bo$56bobbo$58boo$180bo$181bo$177bo3bo$161b
4o13b4o$160bo3bo$164bo$163bo!

It's considered very likely from statistical studies that an infinite number of twin primes exist, but there is no proof of this yet. So we don't know if Dean's pattern will keep pumping out spaceships forever, or if they will stop after a few zillion generations.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby MadMan » June 17th, 2009, 10:15 am

Reading about unpredictability and such ,posted by you, I was reminded of the Line Puffers which tend to have enormous periods and VAST dirty output. Some seem to chug along for thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of gen., and then the exhaust rams into the engine and disruption propagates and suddenly you have an immense cloud of raw matter that FINALLY settles. The researcher finally found patterns that remain "stable" and become cyclic after millions or even billions of gen. One started repeating old material well after a TRILLION stages. The computers needed to manage such immense patterns look like the 2001 monolith !

When I was a young man back in 1970, I did 70 stages of the P20 puffer train which has dirty exhaust - by hand ! :roll: Now that I am 64 and have had computers do all this hard work for me, I am soft. Software made me soft. I feel like the codger in "Up". I look a bit like him, too. I had my first computer extend it to 90, with select stages afterwards. I understand that it develops a super-period of 140, after 1971 gen. (finally gets clear of the start-up rubbish, after long effort).The start-up rubbish settles at 5533, mostly common objects. I did find gliders that the articles didn't mention. My laptop can do the pattern for thousands of stages, and my old daydream of having Marvin the Paranoic Android prove his boast /complaint "Brain the size of a planet and they ask me to park cars !"and compute the pattern until it is seen to stabilize, putting pen to paper each 10 stages - well, in a way it was fulfilled.

One trouble I always had, was getting patterns that evolve separate regions of raw or stable matter, properly spaced on the graph paper. Yes, I TRIED to print out my own graph paper as I have plenty of blank 11.5" X 8" paper, but the spacing of the "o" units was so horizontally stretched...

I had a pattern to check my work by (gen.71 - but that was NOT stated in the text and I had to calculate it by the length of the raw matter already ejected by the dirty puffer train), but it left out a beehive on the far left and I long wondered if I made a mistake. One mistake by hand and 99% of the time it propagates malignantly through all subsequent work. BUT, as I said, I am old and not able to do such an enterprise nowadays...

Because of the above mentioned Turner debacle, I will have to stop once the last of my reserve graph paper is used up. As stated earlier, I can not replace it and I do not have the right marker pens (Tyurer had those and I don't vfind them now) :( . They dried on me finally -and some bleed through the paper instantly. I can't use those on 2-sided paper. ball-points are so artistically poor... I'll be talkin' to ya. Bye.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby MadMan » June 17th, 2009, 7:25 pm

At this point, iI'd like to state that gibberish like "003b00007b0003a000" is utterly untranslatable and useless to me, in examining a pattern. The patterns I inputted to date -and they are not many- are straightforward, none of the gibberish that Niemarc likes to use. I also carefully test a pattern that i select -as I have mistakes that I haven't been able to fix.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Andrew » June 18th, 2009, 8:02 pm

MadMan wrote:At this point, iI'd like to state that gibberish like "003b00007b0003a000" is utterly untranslatable and useless to me...

Are you aware of Golly? (http://golly.sourceforge.net/) If you like playing with Life on graph paper then I think you'll enjoy Golly's interface.

You can copy those rle "gibberish" patterns and either paste them into an existing pattern or use Open Clipboard from Golly's File menu.

You can also copy text patterns like "...ooo...oo" and paste them into Golly. It treats periods, commas, spaces as dead cells and all other displayable characters as live cells (except "$" which is treated as 10 dead cells).
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Hdjensofjfnen » February 11th, 2019, 6:25 pm

MadMan wrote:At this point, iI'd like to state that gibberish like "003b00007b0003a000" is utterly untranslatable and useless to me, in examining a pattern. The patterns I inputted to date -and they are not many- are straightforward, none of the gibberish that Niemarc likes to use. I also carefully test a pattern that i select -as I have mistakes that I haven't been able to fix.

How old is this encoding? It doesn't seem to work in Golly.
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4b3o$6bo$o3b3o$2o$bo!
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Moosey » February 11th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Hdjensofjfnen wrote:
MadMan wrote:At this point, iI'd like to state that gibberish like "003b00007b0003a000" is utterly untranslatable and useless to me, in examining a pattern. The patterns I inputted to date -and they are not many- are straightforward, none of the gibberish that Niemarc likes to use. I also carefully test a pattern that i select -as I have mistakes that I haven't been able to fix.

How old is this encoding? It doesn't seem to work in Golly.

THIS THREAD IS OLD. It's probably some 2009 extra alternative to RLE's
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby dvgrn » February 11th, 2019, 6:48 pm

Moosey wrote:
Hdjensofjfnen wrote:
MadMan wrote:At this point, iI'd like to state that gibberish like "003b00007b0003a000" is utterly untranslatable and useless to me, in examining a pattern. The patterns I inputted to date -and they are not many- are straightforward, none of the gibberish that Niemarc likes to use. I also carefully test a pattern that i select -as I have mistakes that I haven't been able to fix.

How old is this encoding? It doesn't seem to work in Golly.

THIS THREAD IS OLD. It's probably some 2009 extra alternative to RLE's

Pretty sure that was just MadMan's attempt to describe what regular RLE looks like to him. "Golly gibberish" has been causing this problem for a long time -- see also this post and the fourth comment from the bottom on this page on Catagolue.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby Moosey » February 11th, 2019, 6:53 pm

dvgrn wrote:
Moosey wrote:...
THIS THREAD IS OLD. It's probably some 2009 extra alternative to RLE's

Pretty sure that was just MadMan's attempt to describe what regular RLE looks like to him. "Golly gibberish" has been causing this problem for a long time -- see also this post and the fourth comment from the bottom on this page on Catagolue.

Oh yes, paulrw63@live posts on catagolue. Golly Gibberish is his favorite term, it seems.
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Re: Stable Life?

Postby 77topaz » February 11th, 2019, 11:45 pm

MadMan and paulrw63@live are the same person, though, so it's just one old guy whining about how all the new technology is too complicated for him, not a systematic problem.
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