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CA and crypto

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CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » June 14th, 2019, 5:26 am

How about crypto market for different CAs just like Cryptokitties but unlike the later we will let everyone to post their CA for nominal fees and have no breading. The fees would be defined in a way that people will not post too much (we can place bids every N minutes for the new CA). On the other hand one can advertise his CA using patterns available inside it, and will get a chance to earn money if his CA will start to cost more on the crypto market.

This could be an interesting monetizing and popularizing of our field. CAs could jump in cost if inside them people have built some patterns, thus we would be able to monetize and prioritize CA research activities based on crypto market.
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » June 27th, 2019, 12:12 pm

Another idea came to my mind. Think about gold how do we understand it has value? Because we need it sometimes and it's rare. More than that we know it's finite. So we know good new CGOL patterns are rare. So each pattern that has some significance can base a new crypto coin based on two value generating quantities:

1. The CGOL pattern. Think like a found gold that we know to appreciate because it's gold. Take any pattern of the year just for example. Each cell of this pattern can be attached to a currency. For example we have bitcoin with million coins. So we adjust the value of the virtual area belonging to the pattern like a valuable thing, say piece of land. Just the land is the pattern in CGOL or array of patterns for spaceships and oscillators. So if the pattern has 1K cells we sell each pattern cell such that 30% of the currency will be based on the pattern found in CGOL.

2. 70% of the currency will be based on soup search. We will use it as proof of useful work, and then the very rare patterns that the soup search finds will be like titanium of the currency. We don't know how many there are but we know there is always exponentially harder to find anything interesting new. So we have some real mathematical unknown which our monetary system will depend on. One would claim this is kind of a risk but on the contrary our lives and the current cryptocurrency actually has the problem of being to known and therefore not useful and not interesting to anyone for the results. We know that new soups in catagolue are exponentially getting rearer. So we have a a good sense of this titanium. This kind of exponential unknown is is the base of the other 70% of the currency. Obviously the price for every new pattern will be decided by the market, we only know - no one knows how many interesting patterns there are and how they are distributed.

My claim is that society needs this "real" unknown at least this what our currency can generate. Anyway one can just use CA cryptography and nothing fancy and make a money of the same idea. Also the pattern and the soup search are kinda stapled together. Maybe we can add all the patterns found already by the soup search and insert this into circulation and from time to time any new pattern will rise and we will add its cells to the pool of all pattern cells found until now. So this is would be only a crypto collectible but the "real" money would use something simple like: find a soup that generates an eater2. Or a pattern which probability is defined by the mining computing power. The more mining we have the least probable pattern we demand as Pow. Thus our miners will somehow be controlled by the algorithm, and will not be forced to overwork for every transaction. Notice this is model #2 of cryptocurrency based on CA.

EDIT We can also as community of CGOL experts release "CGOL real estate" a list of 5 patterns each year which will be added as a new "real estate" to the "reality of CGOL knowledge on earth". So the inflation will depend on patterns quality discovered each year. And the cells of the patterns would be defined by the community and will be released as a new "ground", each cell will get a new price on the CGOL market - depending on the pattern and location of the cell in the pattern. This is similar to a new gold found. But there would be nothing crypto about it - at all just like virtual real-estate. It's a commodity because it's objectively rare - because good CGOL patterns are rare. This can run on top of etherium, just a simple smart contract and boost the community to have a real "crypto" value because our transactions are backed up by etherium ecosystem, so we have some level of security and it's made to attract attention to CGOL community, so our patterns would become "crypto patterns" where each cell costs some virtual coin. We can also agree to add each year exactly 5 new patterns to avoid random inflations (the cost of each new pattern is defined yet again by the existing market - but we know we add 5 coins every year - or at least we know to do the right thing when the time comes if it will work). To avoid the arbitrary of the number 5 we can always add single pattern each year. We obviously start from 50 patterns per 50 years to CGOL.
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » August 18th, 2019, 1:25 pm

Few more thoughts on crypto models:

RuleCoin This is the initial idea in the post. What we need to add is incentivizing the discoveries. In order to do that we need to allow posting:
1. New rules.
2. New discoveries (linked to the rule).
3. Link new discoveries to old ones.
4. Negative link - if someone posted the same discovery before, we will point out to that one.
5. Rate the discovery.
6. Trade the discovery as crypto collectible.

Everything can be posted in RLE format or a link can be provided to the discovery (a post in the forum, github or ipfs).

We can grow a tree of discoveries just like in science, but unlike in science we can also trade them as crypto collectibles.

The site should allow to view the discoveries, their prices, their links and ratings.

SoupCoin This is the simplest idea along the lines of CACoin by calcyman. We just post hashes inside a smart contract which are function of our public key. The value of the soup will be defined by several criteria:
1. Date it was posted.
2. The probability of SL it produced.
3. The aesthetic value of the SL.
4. The experts value and benefit to the research.

It will be traded as collectible, so the market price is defining what is profitable to add to the contract.

A special search utility will be provided (in webassemply) as well as site with all the needed functionality (posting, trading, viewing and commenting).

EDIT See the white paper here, for this suggestion.

ConduitCoin This coin is made to promote research in conduits. The most challenging part here is the smart contract that needs to validate a new conduit is valid one. A special search utility "by hand" will needed to be provided in order to allow people to search for new conduits. Conduits will need to have different output, or some other way to remove near duplicates. The value of the conduit can be estimated by the market or by number of active cells. If so it will become a classical coin.

SynthesisCoin Take all gliders from all 15bits SL synthesys. Each SL is a source of some amount of coins, just attach glider to a coin. Improving the synthesis will actually deflate the coin value (each coin will grow in value). The challenge here is to post all the syntheses into the contract and validate a new synth. In this model miners are actually taking some coins from the community to make less coins than they took.
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby testitemqlstudop » August 18th, 2019, 8:07 pm

I do not want to make cAsh a second-layer contract on ethereum. That is why I am currently working on the http server for the original Lifecoin that calcyman has forsaken.
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » August 18th, 2019, 8:47 pm

I personally don't believe in PoW. This is why I do think a smart contract is a good idea - not sure if under ethereum or other ecosystem (currently I think ethereum is a good idea because it has crowd). There are already efficient consensus based crypto currencies, and in couple of years the PoW will not be the main resource of validation - instead we will use good cryptography based consensus algorithm. Yet smart contracts and research fields like ours backed by smart contracts will remain.

I do think for now - lifecoin is valid alternative to what is going on at the market today. Are you changing the cryptographic validator under ethereum source code, or something else?

EDIT Making a second layer is way simpler by three-four orders of magnitude. This is why I prefer it - also we can use it as collectibles and other economical models and not being forced to provide PoW only. This is very limiting model.
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby testitemqlstudop » August 18th, 2019, 9:35 pm

No, the reason I oppose being a smart contract is because all smart contracts require gas to run and as a twelve year old I can't get my hands on ether through ways other than mining.
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » August 18th, 2019, 10:56 pm

testitemqlstudop wrote:smart contracts require gas to run


If you have a very useful finding with lots of value (which attached to your wallet only) - there is a model (forgot the name) that makes a transaction for free by people who believe in the finding. It's just another layer - that can be made trusted in case both parties have some mutual benefits. For example you can promise me 5% of the finding if I upload it on your behalf (might be formulated in the contract itself as an apotropos rule, this will ensure no one can post something you didn't agree upon - unless you disagree with the contract, in that case don't search. Which when you have some ether can be removed by you as the owner - and you can sell it on the market, like any collectible). Kind of similar to mining, just few extra steps to solve this particular issue.

So the contract needs built in percentile for apotropos postings. What do you think is fair amount?
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby testitemqlstudop » August 18th, 2019, 11:25 pm

Oh wow you actually understand the Ethereum system this much? I was previously interested in P2P and learned about this but I seemingly forgot it...

If I understand correctly, this system - paying a percentile for exchange between real cash (Ether) and "no-value cash" (Lifecoin) is something only true devotees would do, in the beginning, at least. So I'd say that the best option is to allow to "bid a block" - i.e. lots of people bid for the right to submit this block, bidding promise percents. For example,

- Alice announces she has a block
- Bob bids 50% on it
- Claire bids 20% on it
- Bob bids 15% on it
- Alice says no
- Bob bids 10% on it
- Claire bids 5% on it
- Bob bids 2% on it
- Alice says yes; Bob submits the block and gets a 2% commission
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » August 19th, 2019, 12:05 am

testitemqlstudop wrote:- Alice says yes


You can't say yes - you need gas for it. Maybe it's possible to verify you signed some transaction i.e. Alice says "yes" = alice signs a transaction agreement, the contract verifies the agreement by verifying Alice signed on it (it's possible to verify using public key alone I think). Need to make sure contracts provide asymmetric encryption, if so apotroposing will be much easier (looks like they do but the contract might cost some more gas to commit at first).

The flow then would be:
- Alice says yes
- Alice signs privately a sentence - I let bob commit for me for 2% the soups hash x.
- Bob receives the signature of alice and posts to smart contract.
- Smart contract verifies the sig is of Alice and lets Bob to commit a soup in her name.

EDIT This can be too complicated, and some standard amount might be generated automatically without any effort - for example if it's 1% of the SL - and this is the minimal amount to which SL is divided to, then alice verification is not needed. If Bob wants more than that - only then he needs to provide evidence. I'm not sure to how many parts to divide the SL - I'm guessing 256 is more reasonable than 100. We're basically not trading SLs but locations inside initial hash that generated the SL. Thus you can give a part of your hash and not all of it.

testitemqlstudop wrote: paying a percentile for exchange between real cash (Ether) and "no-value cash" (Lifecoin) is something only true devotees would do, in the beginning, at least.


I'm intending to use ETC where the gas is 100 times cheaper than in ETH. I can pay a cent-or two to allow you posting very rare SL you found (I hope the CGOL verification will not cost too much). Anyway the system should catch at some point and the investment will well worth it. Anyone who believes in the p2p as the future will not hesitate in face of losing several cents for rare SL posting.

REMARK To increase interest we can at first trade SLs themselves without selling or buying them for ether. Of course every operation is requiring some gas, but gas is something very cheap - like 0.1 cents for such operations (at least for now in ETC).
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby testitemqlstudop » August 19th, 2019, 5:52 am

*Starts syncing etc blockchain*

How would the system prevent Alice giving the soup to Bob but Bob uploading the soup as his own?
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » August 19th, 2019, 9:06 am

testitemqlstudop wrote:Alice giving the soup to Bob but Bob uploading the soup as his own?


The soup is a function of your public key. Bob has different key so he can't use it as his own. The public key is function of your private key, and this key you should not share (ever) but you can sign with.
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby Hdjensofjfnen » August 26th, 2019, 11:15 pm

testitemqlstudop wrote:If I understand correctly, this system - paying a percentile for exchange between real cash (Ether) and "no-value cash" (Lifecoin) is something only true devotees would do, in the beginning, at least.

Inherently, attaching Ethereum to Lifecoin makes LC have value. Did I get something wrong?
That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is.
A predecessor to my favorite oscillator of all time:
x = 7, y = 5, rule = B3/S2-i3-y4i
4b3o$6bo$o3b3o$2o$bo!
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Re: CA and crypto

Postby simsim314 » September 12th, 2019, 4:49 pm

Hdjensofjfnen wrote:Inherently, attaching Ethereum to Lifecoin makes LC have value. Did I get something wrong?


Unless no one wants to use the smart contract - then it has no value at all. Attaching something to ethereum usually generates some minimal amount of value just because you must pay for gas to call the contract, so if people are using the system once in a while - they inherently pay some micro value (few cents).
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