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Thread for basic questions

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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » November 10th, 2018, 5:42 pm

wwei23 wrote:Is there any way to get betas like Golly 3.2b1?

No, not unless the relevant link on trevorrow.com still works -- but Andrew is usually pretty good about cleaning them up as soon as they're out of date -- or unless someone has kept a copy for some reason and is willing to make it available.

It doesn't seem like there would be much use for an archive of these things, since either they're identical to the release version (if no bugs are found)... or else they contain known bugs that have been fixed.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby wwei23 » November 10th, 2018, 10:43 pm

Where, exactly is Golly 2.9? Also, if anyone is interested, I actually have some Golly 3.0 beta. Norton deleted the actual application, but...I found I still had the zip file, so I re-extracted it yesterday, and Norton didn't delete the application this time!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby blah » November 11th, 2018, 1:54 am

KittyTac wrote:How big is the LTL rulespace for R < 100?

I'm a bit late to respond to this, but I've gone into the detail on the combinatorics here before.

Like the previous time a similar question was asked, people then went on to do maths I had already done a year before. I'm not going to say that my pdf contains no mistakes (or is all that comprehensive), but it's probably worth keeping in mind when these questions come up. (Not that I blame people for being unwilling to put in the effort to download a .txt file, rename it to a .pdf, and then view it.)

There's always more prior art.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby wildmyron » November 12th, 2018, 1:24 am

wwei23 wrote:Where, exactly is Golly 2.9?

The new features and improvements to Golly after v2.8 were considered significant enough to warrant a major version update, so the next version released was 3.0. See http://golly.sourceforge.net/Help/changes.html for a summary.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » November 12th, 2018, 9:51 pm

Another silly question: how much time a meta-0E0P metacell (that is, a 0E0P made out of 0E0P cells) would take to replicate at 8^0?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » November 12th, 2018, 10:03 pm

KittyTac wrote:Another silly question: how much time a meta-0E0P metacell (that is, a 0E0P made out of 0E0P cells) would take to replicate at 8^0?


Assuming one generation per second, it would take 2^72 seconds (or 150 trillion years).

But one generation per second is unduly pessimistic; it took streamlife only 30 days to simulate the 0E0P metacell, compared with 2177 years if it ran at one generation per second.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby gameoflifemaniac » November 13th, 2018, 11:02 am

calcyman wrote:
KittyTac wrote:Another silly question: how much time a meta-0E0P metacell (that is, a 0E0P made out of 0E0P cells) would take to replicate at 8^0?


Assuming one generation per second, it would take 2^72 seconds (or 150 trillion years).

But one generation per second is unduly pessimistic; it took streamlife only 30 days to simulate the 0E0P metacell, compared with 2177 years if it ran at one generation per second.

You already made one?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » November 13th, 2018, 11:43 am

gameoflifemaniac wrote:
calcyman wrote:
KittyTac wrote:Another silly question: how much time a meta-0E0P metacell (that is, a 0E0P made out of 0E0P cells) would take to replicate at 8^0?


Assuming one generation per second, it would take 2^72 seconds (or 150 trillion years).

But one generation per second is unduly pessimistic; it took streamlife only 30 days to simulate the 0E0P metacell, compared with 2177 years if it ran at one generation per second.

You already made one?


Yes: https://cp4space.wordpress.com/2018/11/12/fully-self-directed-replication/
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby gameoflifemaniac » November 13th, 2018, 1:47 pm

calcyman wrote:
gameoflifemaniac wrote:
calcyman wrote:Assuming one generation per second, it would take 2^72 seconds (or 150 trillion years).

But one generation per second is unduly pessimistic; it took streamlife only 30 days to simulate the 0E0P metacell, compared with 2177 years if it ran at one generation per second.

You already made one?


Yes: https://cp4space.wordpress.com/2018/11/12/fully-self-directed-replication/

Please tell where I can find an attachment with the pattern!
Shouldn't there be a new topic about this great new invention?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » November 13th, 2018, 2:23 pm

gameoflifemaniac wrote:Please tell where I can find an attachment with the pattern!
Shouldn't there be a new topic about this great new invention?

It's kind of big for an attachment. Looks like complete_default.mc in the slmake repository is a working sample metacell, but I don't see where it says what the default rule is.

isotropic-metafier.py can build you a metacell programmed for whatever rule you want, but you have to have the repository cloned to your machine so the script can make the necessary lifelib calls.

In any case, be prepared to spend a month or more of CPU time to run the metacell as far as meta-T = 1...!
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby gameoflifemaniac » November 13th, 2018, 2:44 pm

---------------------------
Python error:
---------------------------
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
File "C:\Users\(Don't want to show)\Desktop\(Don't want to show)\golly-2.8-win-32bit\Scripts\Python\isotropic-metafier.py", line 30, in <module>
from lifelib.genera.isotropic import str2tab
ImportError: No module named lifelib.genera.isotropic

---------------------------
OK
---------------------------
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » November 13th, 2018, 2:58 pm

gameoflifemaniac wrote:---------------------------
Python error:
---------------------------
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
File "C:\Users\(Don't want to show)\Desktop\(Don't want to show)\golly-2.8-win-32bit\Scripts\Python\isotropic-metafier.py", line 30, in <module>
from lifelib.genera.isotropic import str2tab
ImportError: No module named lifelib.genera.isotropic

---------------------------
OK
---------------------------


It's not a Golly Python script, and it needs access to various pattern files in order to run.

Your best bet is to git-clone the repository in Cygwin (see Dave's slsparse tutorial) and then execute isotropic-metafier.py from within the repository directory.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » November 13th, 2018, 2:59 pm

gameoflifemaniac wrote:---------------------------
Python error:
---------------------------

dvgrn wrote:...but you have to have the repository cloned to your machine so the script can make the necessary lifelib calls.

However, once again, unless you're prepared to run the resulting pattern for about a month (using StreamLife) or something closer to a full year (using regular Golly HashLife), it seems like you're likely to have a hard time seeing any difference in large-scale behavior between the default 0E0P metacell and a custom-programmed one... in which case, what good does it really do to run isotropic-metafier.py?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby wwei23 » November 13th, 2018, 10:30 pm

Who discovered the P41 wick-that-vexes-absolutely-everyone?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » November 13th, 2018, 10:46 pm

I meant not one generation per second. I meant the standard speed.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby calcyman » November 13th, 2018, 11:25 pm

wwei23 wrote:Who discovered the P41 wick-that-vexes-absolutely-everyone?


Achim Flammenkamp.

KittyTac wrote:I meant not one generation per second. I meant the standard speed.


What does 'standard speed' mean? The Golly step sizes don't correspond to speeds in any natural way -- they depend on both the pattern and the machine you're using. When I've tried running [the 0E0P metacell] at a step size of 1, it's always been roughly one generation per second, give or take an order of magnitude.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » November 14th, 2018, 9:31 am

By normal speed I meant the speed you get from running HashLife on an empty grid at 8^0. (Assuming an adequate computer).
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Redstoneboi » November 14th, 2018, 10:58 am

KittyTac wrote:By normal speed I meant the speed you get from running HashLife on an empty grid at 8^0. (Assuming an adequate computer).

depends on the setting on minimum and maximum step delay, minimum defaulting to 0.025 sec but i'm not sure.
In this case, we're converting 1g per 1s to 1g per 0.025s
so just multiply the time it takes at 1gps with 0.025
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby danny » November 17th, 2018, 6:57 am

Does @calcyman have access to the emails of catagolue users? Maybe he could contact carybe and point them towards this forum, so we could thank them for their contributions.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby gameoflifemaniac » November 17th, 2018, 3:30 pm

calcyman wrote:
wwei23 wrote:Who discovered the P41 wick-that-vexes-absolutely-everyone?


Achim Flammenkamp.

KittyTac wrote:I meant not one generation per second. I meant the standard speed.


What does 'standard speed' mean? The Golly step sizes don't correspond to speeds in any natural way -- they depend on both the pattern and the machine you're using. When I've tried running [the 0E0P metacell] at a step size of 1, it's always been roughly one generation per second, give or take an order of magnitude.

What p41 wick?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » November 17th, 2018, 7:24 pm

gameoflifemaniac wrote:What p41 wick?

This one. (4th)
danny wrote:Does @calcyman have access to the emails of catagolue users? Maybe he could contact carybe and point them towards this forum, so we could thank them for their contributions.

Yeah, it's been tried, actually. Hasn't worked yet -- I might not even have gotten past carybe's spam filters -- but maybe every now and then it will be worth sending another trial email.
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby Sokwe » November 17th, 2018, 7:31 pm

dvgrn wrote:
gameoflifemaniac wrote:What p41 wick?

This one. (4th)

It can also be found in jslife (in the wicks folder).
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby gameoflifemaniac » November 18th, 2018, 8:59 am

So what rules can the 0E0P metacell simulate?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby KittyTac » November 18th, 2018, 9:05 am

gameoflifemaniac wrote:So what rules can the 0E0P metacell simulate?

As far as I know, all MAP rules.

Now, my question.
If you were to make a GoL glider out of 0E0P metacells, what would be its speed and period?

Now, a very silly question.
If you were to make a Caterpillar out of 0E0P metacells, what would be its speed and period, and how many cells would it take?
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Re: Thread for basic questions

Postby dvgrn » November 18th, 2018, 9:10 am

gameoflifemaniac wrote:So what rules can the 0E0P metacell simulate?

Any MAP rule, not including the B0 ones. Actually also a much larger pile of 8-state BCC rules, also with B0 forbidden of course --

calcyman wrote:-- 8^4095 non-B0 8-state 4-neighbour rules (2^35 gens per metagen);
-- 2^511 non-B0 2-state 9-neighbour rules (2^36 gens per metagen).

See Talk:0E0P_metacell for discussion on which is the 0E0P's true period, 2^35 or 2^36.

EDIT: For the purposes of KittyTac's questions, 2^36 is the right answer, because a 2-state 9-neighbor rule is being emulated. That means that all periods get multiplied by 68719476736, and all speeds get multiplied by 68719476736/262144 = 262144.

So a glider is period 4*68719476736 =274877906944, speed c/(4*262144) = c/1048576.

The Caterpillar is period 270, so the metapillar is period 270*68719476736 = 18554258718720. The Caterpillar travels at 17c/45, so the metapillar travels 17*262144c/45*68719476736, or 17c/11796480. Further multiplication problems will be left as an exercise for the interested reader.
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