Woops...thx! Fixed now...Scorbie wrote:Simsim got state 3 and state 4 the other way around.
Pattern viewer for forum threads
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
I'd agree -- it would be nice to have a step-back button just to the left of the step-forward button. Half of the reason to have it would be to advertise the new functionality. Otherwise it might not be not at all obvious to a new user.simsim314 wrote:I think that move back is as natural as move forward. I would also suggest to ask other forum members - in my opinion the button controls is very natural place for the play-back.rowett wrote:If you think this is an important feature to surface on the UI I'll see if I can squeeze it in.
Come to think of it, it''s almost worth having "H=help" text show up somewhere sometimes, to help people unlock all the hidden functions. Maybe at the bottom of non-executable viewers, where the controls would ordinarily be? It would be nice to give users feedback as to exactly why there are no viewer controls, also -- i.e., is it a VIEWONLY script tag or an unsupported rule?
There's one more very common usage detail involving state 2, that can also be handled by a round of pre-processing at T=0 for LifeHistory patterns.simsim314 wrote:Generally LifeHistory has two more states other than what is the viewer. In the viewer we have
0 - empty (black).
1 - active (green).
2 - something was there a while ago (blue).
State 2 in the viewer is even cooler as it has coloring for history as well (how long ago something was in that cell).
LifeHistory adds only 2 more states (for 99% of the relevant usage)...
Have a look at this post by simeks, for example. At T=0, the state 2 cells give a nice clear picture of the conduit's "reaction envelope" -- something that only shows up in the viewer after you run the pattern. In particular, the path of the new output glider, freed up by simeks' new discovery, is clearly visible in the subpattern in the upper right:
Code: Select all
x = 156, y = 80, rule = LifeHistory
18.A4.2A8.A110.4B$17.A.A2.A.A6.3A109.4B$16.A2.4A7.A101.2A8.4B$16.A.A
4.A6.2A96.A.A2.A7.4B3.A$15.2A.2A2.2A4.4B94.3A.2A8.4B3.A.A$13.A4.B3.4B
.3B95.A4.B8.4B4.A.A$10.A2.4AB2AB3.6B92.A2.4AB2AB5.4B4.2A.2A$10.3A3.A.
2AB.7B.B91.3A3.A.2AB.2B.4B6.B$13.A4.14B93.A4.10B6.2AB2A3.2A$12.2AB4.
12B3.2B88.2AB4.9B6.2A.A.A.A.A$12.5B.20B86.5B.12B3.4B2.A.A$14.25B87.
23B.2A.2A$12.28B84.25B$12.28B84.25B$11.28B84.27B$11.28B84.27B$12.26BD
B84.25B$11.25B3DB83.21B.4B.2B2.2A$9.20B2.5BDBD82.20B5.3B2ABA2.A$7.19B
5.5BD82.19B10.ABAB3A$7.2BE16B5.5B83.2BC16B10.A.A$6.3BEBE4B.9B6.3B83.
3BCBC4B.9B8.3A.5A$7.2B3E4B2.7B94.2B3C4B2.7B8.A3.A4.A$6.5BE4B3.5B94.5B
C4B3.5B9.2A2.A.A$5.10B5.4B93.10B5.3B15.2A$4.4B10.4B.B2A90.4B10.7B$4.
3B11.2A3.BA.A88.4B11.2A.B.2A$2.4B13.A6.A104.A3.A$2.2A12.3A7.2A100.3A
5.3A$3.A12.A111.A9.A$3A$A19$19.2A$16.2A2.A$14.3A.2A8.2B$13.A4.B8.3B$
10.A2.4AB2AB5.5B$10.3A3.A.2AB.2B.6B$13.A4.14B$12.2AB4.14B7.2A$12.5B.
15B7.A$14.22B.BA.A$12.24B.B2A$12.26B$11.27B$11.27B$12.20BD2B2D$11.20B
2.3D$9.20B5.D$7.19B$7.2BE16B$6.3BEBE4B.9B$7.2B3E4B2.7B$6.5BE4B3.5B$5.
10B5.3B$4.4B10.7B$4.3B11.2A.B.2A$2.4B13.A3.A$2.2A12.3A5.3A$3.A12.A9.A
$3A$A!
#C [[ VIEWONLY THUMBNAIL HEIGHT 360 ZOOM 4 ]]
Is it possible for state 2 cells to be shown right away at T=0 in the viewer, as faded reaction-envelope cells?
-------------------------------------
I'd agree that it's not at all important to have state 6 work as it does in LifeHistory. State 6 was intended to allow long-running glider-emitting patterns to be safely placed next to each other in stamp collections, so that you could watch the evolution of something in one "pane" of a stamp collection without having a glider from some related pattern next door crash into it and make a mess, just when things were getting interesting.
Almost nobody has ever used state 6 for that purpose, and grey cells can have various adverse effects -- messing up Golly's random fills, and generally making LifeHistory not behave like regular Life when they're present. Probably it wasn't a very good idea to include state 6 in the rule definition, but that's water under the bridge at this point.
Based on current usage, the viewer could simply convert State 6 to a second marked-OFF state -- handle it exactly the same as state 4 but give it a different color. A highly visible color might be good, to put users on notice that there are state-6 cells here and the pattern might work a little differently in Golly.
Really the only actual patterns that will work really differently, especially for the first hundred ticks or so, can be found in this thread. I think there's absolutely no point in contaminating the viewer with the code required to support those few special-purpose patterns -- except in a "Molly" version that supports arbitrary multistate rules, of course.
99+% of LifeHistory patterns don't have state 6 cells at all, so those are definitely the patterns to concentrate on having good support for.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
I agree - but i think the viewer has already state2 and the option not to alter the blue brightness. Just saying that the viewer is already not just "2 state viewer", it has pretty advanced and smart coloring system built in already. All you need for LifeHistory is to add just a bit of extra functionality (I even could write it I guess - If I would be given the source code).dvgrn wrote:At T=0, the state 2 cells give a nice clear picture of the conduit's "reaction envelope"
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
This has been fixed and will be in the next released build.Scorbie wrote:When I run a pattern, reset, and press space, gen 1 becomes the gen when I clicked reset. And it starts running from that gen. On windows 10 IE 11 and android (touch instead of space)
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
The viewer doesn't currently have the option to show arbitrary patterns in state 2 at T=0. You can fake the most common usage with a script that runs a gun or oscillator quickly through one cycle, and then pauses, but that doesn't work so well for things like Herschel conduits, or for really high-period objects like complex signal circuitry, where it's particularly useful to be able to show all the signal tracks -- but also retain the ability to run the pattern.simsim314 wrote:I agree - but i think the viewer has already state2 and the option not to alter the blue brightness.dvgrn wrote:At T=0, the state 2 cells give a nice clear picture of the conduit's "reaction envelope"
It seems as if the state 2 display capability is certainly there, and it wouldn't be too horribly difficult to add it as a special case thing to do for LifeHistory. It just doesn't do that for LifeHistory right now, so I'm hoping it can be added along with the other suggested changes to support states 3 through 5.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
As always, thanks a lot!rowett wrote:This has been fixed and will be in the next released build.Scorbie wrote:When I run a pattern, reset, and press space, gen 1 becomes the gen when I clicked reset. And it starts running from that gen. On windows 10 IE 11 and android (touch instead of space)
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Yes it's coming. I have a working prototype with all states at T=0 and then 3 and 4 overlayed during execution. I've also created a new Theme for LifeHistory patterns so the execution uses the LifeHistory colours (albeit with some fade, because it's cool).dvgrn wrote:It seems as if the state 2 display capability is certainly there, and it wouldn't be too horribly difficult to add it as a special case thing to do for LifeHistory. It just doesn't do that for LifeHistory right now, so I'm hoping it can be added along with the other suggested changes to support states 3 through 5.
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
At the moment there are three playback controls:dvgrn wrote:I'd agree -- it would be nice to have a step-back button just to the left of the step-forward button. Half of the reason to have it would be to advertise the new functionality. Otherwise it might not be not at all obvious to a new user.simsim314 wrote:I think that move back is as natural as move forward. I would also suggest to ask other forum members - in my opinion the button controls is very natural place for the play-back.rowett wrote:If you think this is an important feature to surface on the UI I'll see if I can squeeze it in.
[ Reset | Play | Pause ]
The Pause control doubles up as step forward.
I'm planning on having four playback controls:
[ Reset | Step Back | Play | Pause ]
When Paused the Pause control will change visually to be a Step Forward control.
[ Reset | Step Back | Play | Step Forward ]
Good idea. I'm also debating having the navigation menu (bottom right, which displays the Zoom, Angle, Depth and Layer controls) display an extra row of controls at the top of the screen perhaps with things like: Grid on/off, Help, Loop on/off, Fit Zoom, Autofit etc. Thoughts and comments welcome.dvgrn wrote:Come to think of it, it''s almost worth having "H=help" text show up somewhere sometimes, to help people unlock all the hidden functions. Maybe at the bottom of non-executable viewers, where the controls would ordinarily be? It would be nice to give users feedback as to exactly why there are no viewer controls, also -- i.e., is it a VIEWONLY script tag or an unsupported rule?
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Great, thx!rowett wrote:Yes it's coming. I have a working prototype with all states at T=0 and then 3 and 4 overlayed during execution. I've also created a new Theme for LifeHistory patterns so the execution uses the LifeHistory colours (albeit with some fade, because it's cool).
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
The LifeHistory prototype is here. Please let me know if it's working as expected.
Note this is still work in progress:
Note this is still work in progress:
- the Fit Zoom function doesn't yet take into account anything other than states 0 and 1
- the LifeHistory Theme (Theme 10) isn't yet automatically defaulted
- the extra states are only drawn at Zoom levels of 1x or higher
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Yes, it looks really good.rowett wrote:The LifeHistory prototype is here. Please let me know if it's working as expected.
If it's not too difficult to make the change, it probably makes more sense to color any state-2 cells present at T=0 with the oldest, most faded background color. That way, for example, a gun or high-period oscillator can be set up to look almost the same for its first cycle as for subsequent cycles -- still some subtle shading differences, but very close. The old-background color is a better match for the standard uses of LifeHistory state-2 cells.
Will it be possible for a script to apply other themes besides #10 to a LifeHistory pattern, with states 3 through 6 defaulting to the standard white, yellow, red, and blue-gray colors, but changeable with COLOR n script commands?
Looks like state-6 gray cells are displayed at T=0, but then disappear in later generations. Could gray be set up as an alternate "marked" color, so that it's handled the same way as red state-3 cells? Definitely not a high-priority item... In a way it might be just as good to leave things as they are. Two working types of markable OFF cells might set up the temptation for people to build patterns that only work "properly" in the viewer, and break horribly when pasted into Golly because of the impolite non-standard-Life behavior of real gray cells.
-- I got some slightly strange behavior out of the viewer by putting in state-7 cells in a LifeHistory pattern. State-7 cells are treated as state 1, but are not displayed by the prototype viewer until T=1:
Code: Select all
x = 140, y = 83, rule = LifeHistory
45.2G3.2G41.2G3.2G$44.G2.G.G2.G39.G2.G.G2.G$46.G2.G2.G35.3G3.G2.G2.G$
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G3.G2.G40.G3.G2.G$44.4G2.2G40.4G2.2G!
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Wow this is great! I would suggest to use this theme to "Show in viewer" for LifeHistory patterns automatically - and this by itself is cool release.rowett wrote: Please let me know if it's working as expected.
I saw that for some reason the green has also "fade out" effect like the blue - this is a bit strange for me. Not sure that it's bad - just be aware of it.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Done.dvgrn wrote:If it's not too difficult to make the change, it probably makes more sense to color any state-2 cells present at T=0 with the oldest, most faded background color.
Yes, it's on the backlog. It half works now (after T=0).dvgrn wrote:Will it be possible for a script to apply other themes besides #10 to a LifeHistory pattern, with states 3 through 6 defaulting to the standard white, yellow, red, and blue-gray colors, but changeable with COLOR n script commands?
All states are displayed at T=0. After that it just displays a supported subset. Based on your comments I'm leaving it as it isdvgrn wrote:Looks like state-6 gray cells are displayed at T=0, but then disappear in later generations. Could gray be set up as an alternate "marked" color, so that it's handled the same way as red state-3 cells? Definitely not a high-priority item... In a way it might be just as good to leave things as they are. Two working types of markable OFF cells might set up the temptation for people to build patterns that only work "properly" in the viewer, and break horribly when pasted into Golly because of the impolite non-standard-Life behavior of real gray cells.
That's because LifeViewer thinks LifeHistory doesn't have a state 7 (there wasn't a colour for it in the colour table). It's probably being drawn in black (on the black background) for T=0 and then collapsed down to a live state for execution. It certainly won't crash.dvgrn wrote:I got some slightly strange behavior out of the viewer by putting in state-7 cells in a LifeHistory pattern. State-7 cells are treated as state 1, but are not displayed by the prototype viewer until T=1
Also, I tried to open that pattern in Golly and Molly and they both complained.
The updated prototype can be tried here. This version has the state-2 cells with the oldest faded colour and defaults LifeHistory patterns to Theme 10.
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
I haven't found any problems with this build yet, other than the work-in-progress items on your list a few messages back. Everything seems to work as expected even with multiple layers and different depth settings.rowett wrote:The updated prototype can be tried here. This version has the state-2 cells with the oldest faded colour and defaults LifeHistory patterns to Theme 10.
Yes, having the unsupported gray cells disappear after T=0 seems like a fairly elegant solution, all things considered.
Right, it doesn't -- I just like trying to break things.rowett wrote:LifeViewer thinks LifeHistory doesn't have a state 7 (there wasn't a colour for it in the colour table)
Thanks again for all the good work on LifeViewer recently!
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
The updated prototype with the "step back" button can be tried here.simsim314 wrote:Hey many thanks for the go back option - I would suggest to add it to the buttons controls (if this is not too complex).
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Generally works good - my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well (or is it something technical that can't be switched around?).rowett wrote:The updated prototype with the "step back" button can be tried here.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
It's simple to change so whatever people prefer.simsim314 wrote:Generally works good - my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well (or is it something technical that can't be switched around?).rowett wrote:The updated prototype with the "step back" button can be tried here.
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
I'd definitely agree. If I use the toolbar to hunt for just the right generation, I'd like to be able to go back and forth between step-forward and step-back without having to cross the Play button every time.simsim314 wrote:...my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well...
I also very much like the idea of changing the Pause button face to a Step Forward icon when the viewer is paused.
Is the mouse event handling system flexible enough to allow a long mouse click to repeatedly trigger a button? I.e., if you hold down the left mouse button on the Step Forward or Step Back buttons, could it step forward or back multiple times (after an appropriate starting delay)? Or will that require multiple clicks? Sometimes you want to advance or reverse a fair number of generations, but the Play button is sure to overshoot.
-- And there isn't a symmetrical Reverse Play button, of course, but with a way to hold down the Step Back button you wouldn't need that.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
There is a neat trick being used in some systems: if you hold and drug the mouse to the right the generations evolve, and when you drug to the left the generation go back - nice thing to have, I would not suggest to hold back a release for this feature. I think that if I would want some nice mouse control I would prefer left-right drug over long button down (usually the evolution then comes too quick and you go back to use multi-click/multi-space instead of long mouse down).dvgrn wrote:s the mouse event handling system flexible enough to allow a long mouse click to repeatedly trigger a button?
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
The updated prototype with the reordered playback controls and the Pause button face changing to a Step Forward when paused is here. The step back hotkey "b" will also now pause during playback.dvgrn wrote:I'd definitely agree. If I use the toolbar to hunt for just the right generation, I'd like to be able to go back and forth between step-forward and step-back without having to cross the Play button every time.simsim314 wrote:...my intuition says that pause should be to the left of play and to the right of step back, but probably we should ask other users as well...
I also very much like the idea of changing the Pause button face to a Step Forward icon when the viewer is paused.
Not at the moment but given I built the UI library anything is possible...dvgrn wrote:Is the mouse event handling system flexible enough to allow a long mouse click to repeatedly trigger a button? I.e., if you hold down the left mouse button on the Step Forward or Step Back buttons, could it step forward or back multiple times (after an appropriate starting delay)? Or will that require multiple clicks?
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
@dvgrn - did you notice the bleak green (evolve the first pattern for 300-400 generations). It's maybe just me, but it somehow bothers me a bit, what do you think? Maybe rowett can make it just a bit more greenish...
@rowett Other than that - just perfect.
EDIT I think the green after few generations becomes a bit too white (which is state 3), and this confuses a bit. I'm sure we get used to it pretty fast, but making it more clearly green would be more natural looking.
@rowett Other than that - just perfect.
EDIT I think the green after few generations becomes a bit too white (which is state 3), and this confuses a bit. I'm sure we get used to it pretty fast, but making it more clearly green would be more natural looking.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
Try this one:simsim314 wrote:I think the green after few generations becomes a bit too white (which is state 3), and this confuses a bit. I'm sure we get used to it pretty fast, but making it more clearly green would be more natural looking.
- It should be greener
- Fit Zoom is improved
- There's a new help button top right
LifeViewer https://lazyslug.com/lifeviewer
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
For some reason - the white doesn't leave red trace now (only the yellow).rowett wrote:Try this one:
Other than this small bug - I think it's perfect. The controls are great, coloring, help - everything looks very good.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
There might still be a case for displaying the extra colors at scales lower than 1x. The second pattern in this post makes a good test case for low scales, and maybe also for gray state-6 cells and the Fit Zoom function. The labels are designed to be big enough to be readable at Fit Zoom scales, but they only pop into existence after you zoom in several times.simsim314 wrote:Other than this small bug - I think it's perfect. The controls are great, coloring, help - everything looks very good.
I looked through all the LifeHistory and standard Life patterns on the above forum page, with the newest prototype substituted in, and didn't see any other problems besides the one that simsim314 has described.
Re: Pattern viewer for forum threads
I would argue that if golly doesn't has this feature - javasrcipt viewer can definitely get away with it.dvgrn wrote:There might still be a case for displaying the extra colors at scales lower than 1x.
Another argument is that those features are so much desirable for the users - that releasing a version of a viewer with them, is more important than adding extra more features (which could be added later).
As I mentioned the only thing that "missing" (we just can't see it in that test mode) - is that patterns with LifeHistory rule will automatically load with this theme in the external viewer (as after the show in viewer option was added we all started to be much lazier with the viewer in the messages themselves).