50c/154 Condupillar thread

[dvgrn]

It seems worth starting a separate thread for this old idea, brought up again recently by AlbertArmstain:

50c/154 helix:

Code: Select all

x = 42, y = 362, rule = B3/S23
5bo4b3o$4b3o3bo2bo9b2o$3b2obo3bo11b2o$3b3o4bo3bo9bo$4b2o4bo3bo$9b2o25b
o$9b2o24bobo$10bobo$35bo$10b2o22b3ob3o$34bo2b3obo$35b2o2b2o$38bo$34b2o
b2o2$2b3o$2bo2bo$2bo$2bo3bo24b3o$2bo11bo16bo2bo$3bobo7b3o15bo$13bob2o
14bo3bo$14b3o14bo$14b2o16bobo$27bo$26b3o$26bob2o$5bo4b3o14b3o$4b3o2bo
2bo14b2o$4bob2o4bo$5b4o3bo$5b2o5bo$9bo2bo$10b2o26b3o$12bo24bo2bo$40bo$
8b2o3bo26bo$8b2obo25bobo$8bo2b2o$9b3o3$2b3o$bo2bo$4bo$o3bo26b3o$4bo9bo
15bo2bo$bobo9b3o17bo$12b2obo13bo3bo$12b3o18bo$13b2o15bobo$27bo$26b3o$
25b2obo$5bo4b3o12b3o$4b3o3bo2bo12b2o$3b2obo3bo$3b3o4bo3bo$4b2o4bo3bo$
9b2o$9b2o2bo24b3o$10b2o26bo2bo$38bo$38bo$39bobo2$7b2o2$7bo3bo$2b3o3bo
2bo$2bo2bo4bo$2bo$2bo3bo24b3o$2bo11bo16bo2bo$3bobo7b3o15bo$13bob2o14bo
3bo$14b3o14bo$14b2o16bobo$27bo$26b3o$26bob2o$5bo4b3o14b3o$4b3o2bo2bo
14b2o$4bob2o4bo$5b4o3bo$5b2o5bo$9bo2bo$10b2o26b3o$11bo25bo2bo$9b3o28bo
$9b3o28bo$37bobo5$2b3o$bo2bo$4bo$o3bo26b3o$4bo9bo15bo2bo$bobo9b3o17bo$
12b2obo13bo3bo$12b3o18bo$13b2o15bobo$27bo$26b3o$25b2obo$5bo4b3o12b3o$
4b3o3bo2bo12b2o$3b2obo3bo$3b3o4bo3bo$4b2o4bo3bo$9b2o$9b2o27b3o$10bobo
25bo2bo$10b3o25bo$9b2o27bo$8b3o28bobo$7bo2b2o$8b2o2bo$9b2obo$9b2o$2b3o
$2bo2bo$2bo$2bo3bo24b3o$2bo11bo16bo2bo$3bobo7b3o15bo$13bob2o14bo3bo$
14b3o14bo$14b2o16bobo$27bo$26b3o$26bob2o$5bo4b3o14b3o$4b3o2bo2bo14b2o$
4bob2o4bo$5b4o3bo$5b2o5bo$9bo2bo$10b2o26b3o$11bo25bo2bo$10bo29bo$10bo
29bo$37bobo5$2b3o$bo2bo$4bo$o3bo26b3o$4bo9bo15bo2bo$bobo9b3o17bo$12b2o
bo13bo3bo$12b3o18bo$13b2o15bobo$27bo$26b3o$25b2obo$5bo4b3o12b3o$4b3o3b
o2bo12b2o$3b2obo3bo$3b3o4bo3bo$4b2o4bo3bo$9b2o$9b2o27b3o$9b2ob2o24bo2b
o$9bo2b2o24bo$8b2ob2o25bo$9bobo27bobo$10bo4$2b3o$2bo2bo$2bo$2bo3bo24b
3o$2bo11bo16bo2bo$3bobo7b3o15bo$13bob2o14bo3bo$14b3o14bo$14b2o16bobo$
27bo$26b3o$26bob2o$5bo4b3o14b3o$4b3o2bo2bo14b2o$4bob2o4bo$5b4o3bo$5b2o
5bo$9bo2bo$10b2o26b3o$37bo2bo$40bo$40bo$37bobo$7b2o$7b2o2$9b3o$2b3o5bo
$bo2bo5bo$4bo$o3bo26b3o$4bo9bo15bo2bo$bobo9b3o17bo$12b2obo13bo3bo$12b
3o18bo$13b2o15bobo$27bo$26b3o$25b2obo$5bo4b3o12b3o$4b3o3bo2bo12b2o$3b
2obo3bo$3b3o4bo3bo$4b2o4bo3bo$9b2o$9b2o27b3o$10bobo25bo2bo$38bo$10b2o
26bo$39bobo5$2b3o$2bo2bo$2bo$2bo3bo24b3o$2bo11bo16bo2bo$3bobo7b3o15bo$
13bob2o14bo3bo$14b3o14bo$14b2o16bobo$27bo$26b3o$26bob2o$5bo4b3o14b3o$
4b3o2bo2bo14b2o$4bob2o4bo$5b4o3bo$5b2o5bo$9bo2bo$10b2o26b3o$12bo24bo2b
o$40bo$8b2o3bo26bo$8b2obo25bobo$8bo2b2o$9b3o3$2b3o$bo2bo$4bo$o3bo26b3o
$4bo9bo15bo2bo$bobo9b3o17bo$12b2obo13bo3bo$12b3o18bo$13b2o15bobo$27bo$
26b3o$25b2obo$5bo4b3o12b3o$4b3o3bo2bo12b2o$3b2obo3bo$3b3o4bo3bo$4b2o4b
o3bo$9b2o$9b2o2bo24b3o$10b2o26bo2bo$38bo$38bo$39bobo2$7b2o2$7bo3bo$2b
3o3bo2bo$2bo2bo4bo$2bo$2bo3bo24b3o$2bo11bo16bo2bo$3bobo7b3o15bo$13bob
2o14bo3bo$14b3o14bo$14b2o16bobo$27bo$26b3o$26bob2o$5bo4b3o14b3o$4b3o2b
o2bo14b2o$4bob2o4bo$5b4o3bo$5b2o5bo$9bo2bo$10b2o26b3o$11bo25bo2bo$9b3o
28bo$9b3o28bo$37bobo5$2b3o$bo2bo$4bo$o3bo26b3o$4bo9bo15bo2bo$bobo9b3o
17bo$12b2obo13bo3bo$12b3o18bo$13b2o15bobo$27bo$26b3o$25b2obo$5bo4b3o
12b3o$4b3o3bo2bo12b2o$3b2obo3bo$3b3o4bo3bo$4b2o4bo3bo$9b2o$9b2o27b3o$
10bobo25bo2bo$10b3o25bo$9b2o27bo$8b3o28bobo$7bo2b2o$8b2o2bo$9b2obo$9b
2o$2b3o$2bo2bo$2bo$2bo3bo24b3o$2bo11bo16bo2bo$3bobo7b3o15bo$13bob2o14b
o3bo$14b3o14bo$14b2o16bobo$27bo$26b3o$26bob2o$27b3o$27b2o5$38b3o$37bo
2bo$40bo$40bo$37bobo!

50c/154 is the speed of this H track:

Code: Select all

x = 664, y = 31, rule = B3/S23
3bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo$b3o47b3o47b3o
47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o$o49bo49bo49bo
49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo$2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o
48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o4$10bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo
49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo$10b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o
47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o$13bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49b
o49bo49bo49bo49bo$12b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o
35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o
35b2o11b2o35b2o$25b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b
2o48b2o48b2o6$11bo$11bobo$2o9b3o36b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b
2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o$2o11bo23b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o
11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o
11b2o35b2o11b2o35b2o11b2o$38bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo
49bo49bo$35b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o
47b3o$35bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo4$25b2o48b2o
48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o48b2o$25bo49bo49bo
49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo$26b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b
3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o47b3o$28bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo
49bo49bo49bo49bo49bo!

50c/154 H climber spaceship seems actually viable...

So for each track, eater1 off one side. Then we can shoot an arbitrary singlechannel62 salvo from each spot in the other side. The spine of the spaceship consists of two such tracks shooting left and right. If 50 spaces orthognally is enough space, then we can construct the necessary helix. Then the forward spaceships do the helix, fanout, and construct the tracks using 90 degree glider pairs.

Cleanup would presumably involve using backwards spaceships in a similar manner.

If there is not enough space, block off half of the output gliders to get 100c/308. This also increases the amount of construction the forward spaceships must do.

EvinZL's summary seems very accurate. A 50-cell offset ought to be plenty -- the centipede and silverfish get by just fine with only a 31-cell offset (though it did need a lot of custom searching by oblique to build a database of valid recipes). So there should be no need to double the track to make 100c/308.

A standard singlechannel90 recipe could be sent up the Herschel track to do the helix-building -- or someone could take this excuse to do some new research on how much more efficient singlechannel62 can be, compared to singlechannel90.

If the line of elbows for the helix construction is placed far enough away from the Herschel track, then the track cleanup should be doable very easily just by shooting a few final gliders in the opposite direction -- no need for the backwards spaceships that EvinZL mentions. Or build an extra bait still life or two and the cleanup will be doable with just one backwards trigger glider, meaning the elbows can be very close to the Herschel track.

-- Or, I suppose, add just a few more still lifes than that, and turn the track into a fuse that's engineered to burn at exactly 50c/154. Then no cleanup gliders will be needed at all.

The other big open question is whether that Coe ship in the helix is really needed, or a good idea, or even actually buildable with slow salvos using currently known technology.

Wild idea
If someone really wants to push the frontiers of research, it's technically possible to invent a singlechannel62 salvo that produces a helix on the left side of a single Fx77 chain, and nothing at all on the right side of the chain -- the only difference being that the two streams of gliders are aimed at a different elbow object. If a trick along those lines can be found, the front end of the spaceship will become much simpler to design, since it only has to build a single Fx77 chain instead of two Fx77 chains, with no blocking eaters.

... Come to think of it, the two-Fx77-chain design can probably be arranged so that the excess gliders emitted into the central area between the chains could just annihilate each other -- right? Or am I forgetting something obvious as usual?

[AlbertArmStain]

The other big open question is whether that Coe ship in the helix is really needed, or a good idea, or even actually buildable with slow salvos using currently known technology.

I’m also questioning the Coe ship, I’m curious if there is any alternative to the Coe ship based helix. I think it’s almost impossible to fit the Coe ship in that small space between xwsses and even more Coe ships.

[dvgrn]

I think it’s almost impossible to fit the Coe ship in that small space between xwsses and even more Coe ships.

Right -- though it's not necessarily _that_ small a space. What if we build a less bulky spaceship flotilla first, then activate it once it's already in place? If I'm understanding the front-end geometry right, the helix would be oriented correctly relative to the Fx77 chain that the leftmost activation in the pattern below would work, starting from an LWSS-and-MWSS flotilla that it should be possible to build incrementally.

I don't think the still-life-based activations would work, unless the loaf could be edge-shot in very quickly, then triggered immediately. Haven't tried that, but the direct 2G activation option seems cheaper and better anyway:

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#N 28coelw.rle (mirrored)
#O Mark D. Niemiec's life synthesis database, Thu Feb 19 02:05:31 2015
x = 113, y = 50, rule = B3/S23Super
69.A.A$69.2A$70.A3$75.A32.A$67.2A4.2A12.2O17.A.A$66.A2.A4.2A10.O2.O17.
2A.3A$41.O4.3O12.A5.A.A17.O.O20.A$40.3O2.O2.O11.3A5.A19.O22.A$40.O.2O
4.O11.A.2A$41.4O3.O12.3A$41.2O5.O12.2A$45.O2.O24.2A$46.2O24.2A$47.O26.
A$46.O$46.O19$67.A.A$67.2A38.A$.O4.3O12.A4.3A4.A.A5.O4.3O12.A6.A37.A$
3O2.O2.O11.3A2.A2.A4.2A5.3O2.O2.O11.3A43.3A$O.2O4.O11.A.2A4.A5.A5.O.2O
4.O11.A.2A3.2A18.2O$.4O3.O12.4A3.A12.4O3.O12.3A2.A.A17.O.O17.A$.2O5.O
12.2A5.A12.2O5.O12.2A4.A2.3A14.O18.2A$5.O2.O16.A.A17.O.O22.A34.A.A$6.
2O25.A37.A$7.O24.2A$6.O25.A.A$6.O!

Eventually we'll need to figure out the streams of gliders needed at the front end to build the Fx77 chain. Then we can start attaching helix outputs to those, and see if we can get a workable front end... and meanwhile there's more research to be done on helix-building recipes, for sure.

Does it work to send backwards gliders directly from the Fx77 spine, and arrange for them to meet forward gliders generated by short slow-salvo bursts aimed at a line of elbow objects, to create synchronized pairs of gliders like the reaction shown above? Or will there be too much interference for that to work? I haven't done any actual mock-ups at all yet.

[hotcrystal0]

How would the chain of Fx77s be made though?

[dvgrn]

How would the chain of Fx77s be made though?

The usual way -- generate gliders at the front on both sides with helices, split the glider streams and bounce them around a bit with various upship streams, and crash them together to make the relatively few eaters and blocks that we need for one unit of (Fx77 times two).

Have a look at the front of a Caterpillar or Centipede or Silverfish to get a general idea of what it might look like.

[HartmutHolzwart]

Btw., could someone run helix.pl and build_helix.py on 50c/154? That would most likely give alternative "standard" helices, but use much more *WSS.

[AlbertArmStain]

How would the chain of Fx77s be made though?

The usual way -- generate gliders at the front on both sides with helices, split the glider streams and bounce them around a bit with various upship streams, and crash them together to make the relatively few eaters and blocks that we need for one unit of (Fx77 times two).

Have a look at the front of a Caterpillar or Centipede or Silverfish to get a general idea of what it might look like.

We could also have the glider streams go arbitrarily far away and the get bounced to the front like the shield bug

[dvgrn]

We could also have the glider streams go arbitrarily far away and the get bounced to the front like the shield bug...

Heh, you'll need some unusually speedy c/3d gliders to manage that trick, right? 50c/154 is 0.324675.

[Haycat2009]

We could also have the glider streams go arbitrarily far away and the get bounced to the front like the shield bug...

Heh, you'll need some unusually speedy c/3d gliders to manage that trick, right? 50c/154 is 0.324675.

Will XWSS work?

[dvgrn]

Will XWSS work?

Sure, why wouldn't they? Same as for the original Caterpillar -- 17/45 = 0.37777..., so it's slightly faster than this Condupillar's 0.324675.

Take a look at what's happening on the right side of the original Caterpillar. On the far right, that entire closely-packed helix is needed just to produce single gliders every 270 ticks. It's the job of the upship streams to the left of the helix, to turn those single gliders into multiple gliders.

Simplified version of the first few glider duplications in the Caterpillar:

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x = 95, y = 317, rule = B3/S23
93bo$92bo$92b3o87$65b3o$65bo2bo$65bo$65bo$66bobo12$71b3o$71bo2bo$71bo$
71bo$72bobo13$65b3o$64bo2bo$67bo$67bo$57bo6bobo$56bobo$56bobo$57bo4$
51b3o$51bo2bo$51bo$51bo3bo$51bo$52bobo16b3o$70bo2bo$73bo$73bo$70bobo
13$65b3o$65bo2bo$65bo$65bo$66bobo7$51b3o$50bo2bo$53bo$49bo3bo$53bo$50b
obo18b3o$71bo2bo$37b3o31bo$36bo2bo31bo$39bo32bobo$39bo$36bobo3$41b3o$
40bo2bo$43bo$43bo$40bobo4$65b3o$64bo2bo$67bo$67bo$64bobo7$51b3o$51bo2b
o$51bo$51bo3bo$51bo$52bobo16b3o$70bo2bo$37b3o33bo$37bo2bo32bo$37bo32bo
bo$37bo$38bobo3$41b3o$41bo2bo$41bo$41bo$42bobo4$65b3o$65bo2bo$65bo$65b
o$66bobo$20b3o$19bo2bo$22bo$22bo$19bobo2$51b3o$24b3o23bo2bo$23bo2bo26b
o$26bo22bo3bo$26bo26bo$23bobo24bobo18b3o$71bo2bo$37b3o31bo$36bo2bo31bo
$39bo32bobo$39bo$36bobo3$41b3o$40bo2bo$43bo$43bo$40bobo4$65b3o$64bo2bo
$67bo$67bo$64bobo$20b3o$20bo2bo$20bo$20bo$21bobo2$51b3o$24b3o24bo2bo$
24bo2bo23bo$24bo26bo3bo$24bo26bo$25bobo24bobo16b3o$70bo2bo$37b3o33bo$
37bo2bo32bo$37bo32bobo$37bo$38bobo3$9b3o29b3o$8bo2bo29bo2bo$11bo29bo$
11bo29bo$8bobo31bobo4$3o62b3o$o2bo61bo2bo$o64bo$o3bo60bo$o9b3o53bobo$b
obo6bo2bo6b3o$10bo8bo2bo$10bo11bo$11bobo8bo$19bobo2$51b3o$24b3o23bo2bo
$23bo2bo26bo$26bo22bo3bo$26bo26bo$23bobo24bobo18b3o$71bo2bo$37b3o31bo$
36bo2bo31bo$39bo32bobo$39bo$36bobo3$41b3o$40bo2bo$43bo$43bo$40bobo!

For a Condupillar front end, we can swap in the new Coe-ship helix, but use the same glider-duplication reactions, I think -- haven't built out a sample to try yet. Anyone who wants to understand how these things work should really try building their own example front ends, and just see where the trouble spots happen.

Notice how the temporary conversion of a glider into a vertically-oriented beehive is really helpful? The MWSS stream that eventually hits that beehive can be trivially adjusted so that it produces its output glider N ticks earlier or later. We'll need that kind of adjustability to be able to get the duplicated gliders to eventually crash together to build the eaters and blocks in the Fx77 chains.