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Building a reverse caber-tosser

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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby Redstoneboi » June 26th, 2018, 6:40 am

Majestas32 wrote:the second smallest knightship will be a KMOG lol


The Parallel HBK would definitely be smaller in terms of bounding box.
the KMOG would probably have a lower population, but dang the bounding box would be giant even for a .mc file. rle would have a problem doing the cells in the lower right corner of the pattern.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2018, 8:13 am

Redstoneboi wrote:The Parallel HBK would definitely be smaller in terms of bounding box.
the KMOG would probably have a lower population, but dang the bounding box would be giant even for a .mc file. rle would have a problem doing the cells in the lower right corner of the pattern.

That was a nice thing about an earlier version of this project. When there was still a block puffer shot down by the initial recipe when it had made exactly enough blocks, instead of a block-laying switch engine that had to be shot down by the decoder itself, there was some vague hope of being able to write a gargantuan .mc file representing an actual pattern that would construct something simple like a pulsar. It wouldn't have been fun to try to run the pattern, but at least the size of the pattern in megabytes would have been something comprehensible.

It was also a lot easier to write out a full recipe to construct things like the meteor shower that would shoot down the entire decoder-constructor circuitry, though we couldn't have encoded that recipe in any reasonable .mc file.

Now there isn't any decoder-constructor circuitry to shoot down. That sounds nice, except instead we'd have to build some ill-defined thing that stops a bunch of incoming GPSEs without letting any gliders escape... but it's not just a scattering of still lifes, it's a complex and mind-bogglingly enormous universal computer/constructor capable of simulating its own construction, tracking and cleaning up all the debris left by the initial GPSEs with carefully aimed gliders-or-whatever, and finally self-destructing cleanly, leaving only the intended target object behind.

(The target object is built in some awkward location that's somehow out of the way of all the incoming GPSEs and the tempoary UCC and all of its incredibly slow and laborious cleanup efforts.)

And that's not even mentioning any "bootstrapping" stages, like the building of a block-keeper and then a better decoder to make things "more efficient" -- as if that really matters any more! These seem like problems that are solvable in theory, but nobody is likely to be able to exhibit the complete collection of required circuitry for the N=59 solution, any time soon.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 26th, 2018, 11:37 am

dvgrn wrote:That sounds nice, except instead we'd have to build some ill-defined thing that stops a bunch of incoming GPSEs without letting any gliders escape... but it's not just a scattering of still lifes, it's a complex and mind-bogglingly enormous universal computer/constructor capable of simulating its own construction, tracking and cleaning up all the debris left by the initial GPSEs with carefully aimed gliders-or-whatever, and finally self-destructing cleanly, leaving only the intended target object behind.


Well, the first thing that would be built (after the bootstrapping stages) would be a bunch of one-time eaters (such as blocks) to stop the switch-engines cleanly, so that the UCC doesn't need to carefully time its cleanup.

(The target object is built in some awkward location that's somehow out of the way of all the incoming GPSEs and the tempoary UCC and all of its incredibly slow and laborious cleanup efforts.)


I thought the UCC performed the cleanup first, and then built the target object as its final task...?

And that's not even mentioning any "bootstrapping" stages, like the building of a block-keeper and then a better decoder to make things "more efficient" -- as if that really matters any more! These seem like problems that are solvable in theory, but nobody is likely to be able to exhibit the complete collection of required circuitry for the N=59 solution, any time soon.


Sure, there's no way this could be run in Golly, so I'll be satisfied once there's a complete proof. What remains is actually making the 59-glider synthesis, together with an explanation of how the construction arm can reach through the various period-256 glider streams to build a block on the other side. Maybe it would be easiest for the construction arm to eater1 off a glider stream [from the GPSE] whilst replacing it with a stationary p256 gun. That way, it could bend around the gun (#snarkmakers) without ever having to cross through one or more live p256 glider streams.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2018, 1:08 pm

calcyman wrote:
(The target object is built in some awkward location that's somehow out of the way of all the incoming GPSEs and the tempoary UCC and all of its incredibly slow and laborious cleanup efforts.)


I thought the UCC performed the cleanup first, and then built the target object as its final task...?

I suppose if you're building something moderately complicated, like a fleet of a million Geminis going in all different directions, then you'll probably be in trouble if you try to build the fleet before the cleanup is complete. The Geminis will go flying off and crash into something that hasn't been cleaned up yet. I haven't really been able to stretch my imagination beyond "build a pulsar" yet...

So, yes, your outline of the functioning of the UCC still seems like the way it will have to be done -- not just the original plan, but the newer Computational Masochism one. In particular, if you're constructing one-time eaters to stop the GPSEs, you then have to wait around until the GPSEs actually hit the one-time eaters, before you can start the cleanup process.

In other words, you have to clean up the Ashes from the Crashes before it's safe to build your target object. But at the time when the Ashes from the Crashes are present, there are no more bits coming from the tape -- so the UCC has to collect and store in its memory all the bits that describe the program for the GPSE cleanup, as well as all the bits that describe the recipe for the target object.

I'm pretty sure it's not possible to hard-code the cleanup recipe as per the original outline, because every time you add a single new bit to that cleanup recipe, you would roughly double the number of objects you'd have to shoot down. That doesn't bode well for ever finishing the cleanup.

... This whole project is just mind-bendingly theoretical at this point.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 26th, 2018, 1:47 pm

It might be possible to avoid Computational Masochism (i.e. running the original pattern in GoL on a register machine) by using chris_c's observation that there is outlying junk where the GPSEs are synthesised, and that could be used by the UCC to measure how many GPSE cycles need to be cleaned up.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2018, 2:13 pm

calcyman wrote:It might be possible to avoid Computational Masochism (i.e. running the original pattern in GoL on a register machine) by using chris_c's observation that there is outlying junk where the GPSEs are synthesised, and that could be used by the UCC to measure how many GPSE cycles need to be cleaned up.

Or I suppose if each instance of junk can be slow-salvo converted into a sufficiently high-period Corderrake that can head back toward the origin, cleaning junk as it goes, then that just leaves the insignificant problem of catching the Corderrake when it gets back.

That kind of hand-waves past the problem of dealing with the messy junction between leading and trailing GPSEs. Still, someone could maybe try designing an appropriate Corderrake fleet, and see where the problems turn up.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 26th, 2018, 2:45 pm

dvgrn wrote:That kind of hand-waves past the problem of dealing with the messy junction between leading and trailing GPSEs. Still, someone could maybe try designing an appropriate Corderrake fleet, and see where the problems turn up.


There's an 'instance of junk' at the 'messy junction', so we survive.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 26th, 2018, 4:05 pm

calcyman wrote:
dvgrn wrote:That kind of hand-waves past the problem of dealing with the messy junction between leading and trailing GPSEs. Still, someone could maybe try designing an appropriate Corderrake fleet, and see where the problems turn up.

There's an 'instance of junk' at the 'messy junction', so we survive.

In the spirit of trying to avoid Computational Masochism, might it not be a good idea to build everything that it's possible to build -- directly, by taking bits from the Cordership to run the construction arm -- before doing the cleanup?

It seems as if any final target object will have to be constructed by triggering a huge one-glider seed in any case (because said object can only be safely built after the UCC self-destructs -- it might be a spacefilling breeder or some such).

That being true, isn't it possible to leave completely empty the quadrant of the Life universe where the construction arm is aimed? If so, we might as well build the seed constellation there sooner rather than later.

If we can send slow salvos out to build Corderrakes, aimed at "instances of junk", we can do that right away -- they certainly won't catch up with the GPSEs.

However, I suspect that in some cases, a Corderrake will have to run to completion before the next Corderrake-making slow salvo can be sent out aimed at the next "instance of junk". In that case, that second slow salvo will have to be freeze-dried into a seed constellation -- which can also be built in advance and assigned a location in the Empty Quadrant.

My question is, for just a regular construction -- building a weekender with 59 gliders instead of 79, let's say -- are there any bits coming in from the Cordership that really have to be stored in a memory structure by the UCC? Or can the construction arm just directly build everything that needs to be built?

As soon as we start considering patterns that build copies of themselves, like the 295-cell Yottabyte Universal Constructor Knightship, we're out of luck -- some huge amount of data or other will have to be used after the GPSE cleanup is complete, so that data will have to be stored somewhere. But I'm not clear yet on whether that's true for "simple" constructions like a weekender, or only for truly ridiculous thought experiments like a YUCK.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby chris_c » June 26th, 2018, 7:47 pm

A glider and 11 two-engine Corderships can clean up the exhaust from my GPSE synthesis without producing any uncatchable gliders. The glider that is returned was not planned but I suppose it will be useful to trigger the next stage (of many!) in the clean up.

x = 2174, y = 2193, rule = B3/S23
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2108bo$2107bobo$2107bobo$2108bo$2115bo$2114bobo$2114bobo$2115bo3$2149b
3o2$2147bo$2147bo$2147bo3$2105b2o$2104bo2bo$2104bo2bo$2105b2o16b2o$
2123b2o3$2109b2o$2109b2o17bo8b2o$2127bobo7b2o$2126bo2bo$2127b2o15$
2080bo$2079bobo$2079bobo$2080bo59b2o$2131bo8b2o$2118bo11bobo38b2o$
2092bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$2091bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$2090bo2bo40bo$
2091b2o41bo$2134bo$2153b2o$2153b2o3$2161b2o$2161b2o$2114b3o7$2110bo$
2110bo$2110bo6$2048bo$2047bobo$2047bobo$2048bo59b2o$2099bo8b2o$2086bo
11bobo38b2o$2060bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$2059bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$2058bo
2bo40bo$2059b2o41bo$2102bo$2121b2o$2121b2o3$2129b2o$2129b2o$2082b3o7$
2078bo$2078bo$2078bo6$2016bo$2015bobo$2015bobo$2016bo59b2o$2067bo8b2o$
2054bo11bobo38b2o$2028bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$2027bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$
2026bo2bo40bo$2027b2o41bo$2070bo$2089b2o$2089b2o3$2097b2o$2097b2o$
2050b3o7$2046bo$2046bo$2046bo6$1984bo$1983bobo$1983bobo$1984bo59b2o$
2035bo8b2o$2022bo11bobo38b2o$1996bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1995bobo24b
2o11bo40b2o$1994bo2bo40bo$1995b2o41bo$2038bo$2057b2o$2057b2o3$2065b2o$
2065b2o$2018b3o7$2014bo$2014bo$2014bo6$1952bo$1951bobo$1951bobo$1952bo
59b2o$2003bo8b2o$1990bo11bobo38b2o$1964bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1963bo
bo24b2o11bo40b2o$1962bo2bo40bo$1963b2o41bo$2006bo$2025b2o$2025b2o3$
2033b2o$2033b2o$1986b3o7$1982bo$1982bo$1982bo6$1920bo$1919bobo$1919bob
o$1920bo59b2o$1971bo8b2o$1958bo11bobo38b2o$1932bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bob
o$1931bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1930bo2bo40bo$1931b2o41bo$1974bo$1993b2o$
1993b2o3$2001b2o$2001b2o$1954b3o7$1950bo$1950bo$1950bo6$1888bo$1887bob
o$1887bobo$1888bo59b2o$1939bo8b2o$1926bo11bobo38b2o$1900bo24bobo10bobo
3b3o32bobo$1899bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1898bo2bo40bo$1899b2o41bo$1942bo$
1961b2o$1961b2o3$1969b2o$1969b2o$1922b3o7$1918bo$1918bo$1918bo6$1856bo
$1855bobo$1855bobo$1856bo59b2o$1907bo8b2o$1894bo11bobo38b2o$1868bo24bo
bo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1867bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1866bo2bo40bo$1867b2o41bo$
1910bo$1929b2o$1929b2o3$1937b2o$1937b2o$1890b3o7$1886bo$1886bo$1886bo
6$1824bo$1823bobo$1823bobo$1824bo59b2o$1875bo8b2o$1862bo11bobo38b2o$
1836bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1835bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1834bo2bo40bo$
1835b2o41bo$1878bo$1897b2o$1897b2o3$1905b2o$1905b2o$1858b3o7$1854bo$
1854bo$1854bo6$1792bo$1791bobo$1791bobo$1792bo59b2o$1843bo8b2o$1830bo
11bobo38b2o$1804bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1803bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1802bo
2bo40bo$1803b2o41bo$1846bo$1865b2o$1865b2o3$1873b2o$1873b2o$1826b3o7$
1822bo$1822bo$1822bo6$1760bo$1759bobo$1759bobo$1760bo59b2o$1811bo8b2o$
1798bo11bobo38b2o$1772bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1771bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$
1770bo2bo40bo$1771b2o41bo$1814bo$1833b2o$1833b2o3$1841b2o$1841b2o$
1794b3o7$1790bo$1790bo$1790bo6$1728bo$1727bobo$1727bobo$1728bo59b2o$
1779bo8b2o$1766bo11bobo38b2o$1740bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1739bobo24b
2o11bo40b2o$1738bo2bo40bo$1739b2o41bo$1782bo$1801b2o$1801b2o3$1809b2o$
1809b2o$1762b3o7$1758bo$1758bo$1758bo6$1696bo$1695bobo$1695bobo$1696bo
59b2o$1747bo8b2o$1734bo11bobo38b2o$1708bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1707bo
bo24b2o11bo40b2o$1706bo2bo40bo$1707b2o41bo$1750bo$1769b2o$1769b2o3$
1777b2o$1777b2o$1730b3o7$1726bo$1726bo$1726bo6$1664bo$1663bobo$1663bob
o$1664bo59b2o$1715bo8b2o$1702bo11bobo38b2o$1676bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bob
o$1675bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1674bo2bo40bo$1675b2o41bo$1718bo$1737b2o$
1737b2o3$1745b2o$1745b2o$1698b3o7$1694bo$1694bo$1694bo6$1632bo$1631bob
o$1631bobo$1632bo59b2o$1683bo8b2o$1670bo11bobo38b2o$1644bo24bobo10bobo
3b3o32bobo$1643bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1642bo2bo40bo$1643b2o41bo$1686bo$
1705b2o$1705b2o3$1713b2o$1713b2o$1666b3o7$1662bo$1662bo$1662bo6$1600bo
$1599bobo$1599bobo$1600bo59b2o$1651bo8b2o$1638bo11bobo38b2o$1612bo24bo
bo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1611bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1610bo2bo40bo$1611b2o41bo$
1654bo$1673b2o$1673b2o3$1681b2o$1681b2o$1634b3o7$1630bo$1630bo$1630bo
6$1568bo$1567bobo$1567bobo$1568bo59b2o$1619bo8b2o$1606bo11bobo38b2o$
1580bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1579bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1578bo2bo40bo$
1579b2o41bo$1622bo$1641b2o$1641b2o3$1649b2o$1649b2o$1602b3o7$1598bo$
1598bo$1598bo6$1536bo$1535bobo$1535bobo$1536bo59b2o$1587bo8b2o$1574bo
11bobo38b2o$1548bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1547bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$1546bo
2bo40bo$1547b2o41bo$1590bo$1609b2o$1609b2o3$1617b2o$1617b2o$1570b3o7$
1566bo$1566bo$1566bo6$1504bo$1503bobo$1503bobo$1504bo59b2o$1555bo8b2o$
1542bo11bobo38b2o$1516bo24bobo10bobo3b3o32bobo$1515bobo24b2o11bo40b2o$
1514bo2bo40bo$1515b2o41bo$1558bo$1577b2o$1577b2o3$1585b2o$1585b2o$
1538b3o20$1563b2o$1563bobo$1564b2o17$1428b2o$1429b2o$1428bo39$1349b3o$
1352bo$1348bo3bo$1348b2o3b2o$1347bo2bobo2bo$1346b2o2bobo2bo$1346bo2b2o
b2o$1347bo4bo$1345b2ob2o$1347b4o$1333b2o13b2o$1333b2o6$1365bob2o$1325b
2o29bobo6bob3o$1325b2o31bo4bobo4bo$1355bo3bobo6b2o$1357b2o2bo2bo3bo$
1358bo3b2obo$1331b3o30bobo$1330bo33bobo$1330bo2bo$1331b2o2$1340bo$
1339bobo$1336bo$1336bo2b3o$1336b2o2bo$1336b4o9b2o10bo$1335bo4bo7b2o2bo
5b5o3bo$1335bo5bo2b2o3b2ob3ob2o7bobo$1336b5o2bo4b2o3bo2b2obo7bo$1340bo
2bo5bob2o3b2o8bo$1343bo5bobo6b4o3bo$1347bob2o7b3o$1344b2ob2o$1346b3o2$
1358b2o$1358b2o83$1240b3o$1243bo$1239bo3bo$1239b2o3b2o$1238bo2bobo2bo$
1237b2o2bobo2bo$1237bo2b2ob2o$1238bo4bo$1236b2ob2o$1238b4o$1224b2o13b
2o$1224b2o6$1256bob2o$1216b2o29bobo6bob3o$1216b2o31bo4bobo4bo$1246bo3b
obo6b2o$1248b2o2bo2bo3bo$1249bo3b2obo$1222b3o30bobo$1221bo33bobo$1221b
o2bo$1222b2o2$1231bo$1230bobo$1227bo$1227bo2b3o$1227b2o2bo$1227b4o9b2o
10bo$1226bo4bo7b2o2bo5b5o3bo$1226bo5bo2b2o3b2ob3ob2o7bobo$1227b5o2bo4b
2o3bo2b2obo7bo$1231bo2bo5bob2o3b2o8bo$1234bo5bobo6b4o3bo$1238bob2o7b3o
$1235b2ob2o$1237b3o2$1249b2o$1249b2o106$1090b3o$1093bo$1089bo3bo$1089b
2o3b2o$1088bo2bobo2bo$1087b2o2bobo2bo$1087bo2b2ob2o$1088bo4bo$1086b2ob
2o$1088b4o$1074b2o13b2o$1074b2o6$1106bob2o$1066b2o29bobo6bob3o$1066b2o
31bo4bobo4bo$1096bo3bobo6b2o$1098b2o2bo2bo3bo$1099bo3b2obo$1072b3o30bo
bo$1071bo33bobo$1071bo2bo$1072b2o2$1081bo$1080bobo$1077bo$1077bo2b3o$
1077b2o2bo$1077b4o9b2o10bo$1076bo4bo7b2o2bo5b5o3bo$1076bo5bo2b2o3b2ob
3ob2o7bobo$1077b5o2bo4b2o3bo2b2obo7bo$1081bo2bo5bob2o3b2o8bo$1084bo5bo
bo6b4o3bo$1088bob2o7b3o$1085b2ob2o$1087b3o2$1099b2o$1099b2o149$922b3o$
925bo$921bo3bo$921b2o3b2o$920bo2bobo2bo$919b2o2bobo2bo$919bo2b2ob2o$
920bo4bo$918b2ob2o$920b4o$906b2o13b2o$906b2o6$938bob2o$898b2o29bobo6bo
b3o$898b2o31bo4bobo4bo$928bo3bobo6b2o$930b2o2bo2bo3bo$931bo3b2obo$904b
3o30bobo$903bo33bobo$903bo2bo$904b2o2$913bo$912bobo$909bo$909bo2b3o$
909b2o2bo$909b4o9b2o10bo$908bo4bo7b2o2bo5b5o3bo$908bo5bo2b2o3b2ob3ob2o
7bobo$909b5o2bo4b2o3bo2b2obo7bo$913bo2bo5bob2o3b2o8bo$916bo5bobo6b4o3b
o$920bob2o7b3o$917b2ob2o$919b3o2$931b2o$931b2o88$790b3o$793bo$789bo3bo
$789b2o3b2o$788bo2bobo2bo$787b2o2bobo2bo$787bo2b2ob2o$788bo4bo$786b2ob
2o$788b4o$774b2o13b2o$774b2o6$806bob2o$766b2o29bobo6bob3o$766b2o31bo4b
obo4bo$796bo3bobo6b2o$798b2o2bo2bo3bo$799bo3b2obo$772b3o30bobo$771bo
33bobo$771bo2bo$772b2o2$781bo$780bobo$777bo$777bo2b3o$777b2o2bo$777b4o
9b2o10bo$776bo4bo7b2o2bo5b5o3bo$776bo5bo2b2o3b2ob3ob2o7bobo$777b5o2bo
4b2o3bo2b2obo7bo$781bo2bo5bob2o3b2o8bo$784bo5bobo6b4o3bo$788bob2o7b3o$
785b2ob2o$787b3o2$799b2o$799b2o84$670b3o$673bo$669bo3bo$669b2o3b2o$
668bo2bobo2bo$667b2o2bobo2bo$667bo2b2ob2o$668bo4bo$666b2ob2o$668b4o$
654b2o13b2o$654b2o6$686bob2o$646b2o29bobo6bob3o$646b2o31bo4bobo4bo$
676bo3bobo6b2o$678b2o2bo2bo3bo$679bo3b2obo$652b3o30bobo$651bo33bobo$
651bo2bo$652b2o2$661bo$660bobo$657bo$657bo2b3o$657b2o2bo$657b4o9b2o10b
o$656bo4bo7b2o2bo5b5o3bo$656bo5bo2b2o3b2ob3ob2o7bobo$657b5o2bo4b2o3bo
2b2obo7bo$661bo2bo5bob2o3b2o8bo$664bo5bobo6b4o3bo$668bob2o7b3o$665b2ob
2o$667b3o2$679b2o$679b2o148$481bo$481b2o$480b2obo$479b2o2bo$478b3ob4o$
477b2o2bobo2bo$477b3obobobo$477bob3ob2o$476bobo2b4o$477bo3bo$477bo3bo$
464b2o12bo2bo$464b2o6$498bobo$456b2o30bo7bobobo$456b2o30b3o4bob2o2bo$
488bob2obobo3b2o$488b5ob2o3b2o$463bo24b2o3b2obo$462b2o31bobo$461bo2bo$
461bobo$462b2o2$471bo$471bo$470bobo$466b2o2b3o$466bo5bo$466bo2b3o7b3o
8bob2o$466bob4o7bo3bo4b6o3bo$466bob2o2bo2bo5b3ob3o4bo5bo$467b8o4bo5bo
12bo$468b2obob3o4bob2o3bo9bo$480bob2o8bo$475bob2ob2o7bo2bo$476bo13bo$
476b2obo$478bo$489b2o$489b2o123$314bo$314b2o$313b2obo$312b2o2bo$311b3o
b4o$310b2o2bobo2bo$310b3obobobo$310bob3ob2o$309bobo2b4o$310bo3bo$310bo
3bo$297b2o12bo2bo$297b2o6$331bobo$289b2o30bo7bobobo$289b2o30b3o4bob2o
2bo$321bob2obobo3b2o$321b5ob2o3b2o$296bo24b2o3b2obo$295b2o31bobo$294bo
2bo$294bobo$295b2o2$304bo$304bo$303bobo$299b2o2b3o$299bo5bo$299bo2b3o
7b3o8bob2o$299bob4o7bo3bo4b6o3bo$299bob2o2bo2bo5b3ob3o4bo5bo$300b8o4bo
5bo12bo$301b2obob3o4bob2o3bo9bo$313bob2o8bo$308bob2ob2o7bo2bo$309bo13b
o$309b2obo$311bo$322b2o$322b2o67$209bo$209b2o$208b2obo$207b2o2bo$206b
3ob4o$205b2o2bobo2bo$205b3obobobo$205bob3ob2o$204bobo2b4o$205bo3bo$
205bo3bo$192b2o12bo2bo$192b2o6$226bobo$184b2o30bo7bobobo$184b2o30b3o4b
ob2o2bo$216bob2obobo3b2o$216b5ob2o3b2o$191bo24b2o3b2obo$190b2o31bobo$
189bo2bo$189bobo$190b2o2$199bo$199bo$198bobo$194b2o2b3o$194bo5bo$194bo
2b3o7b3o8bob2o$194bob4o7bo3bo4b6o3bo$194bob2o2bo2bo5b3ob3o4bo5bo$195b
8o4bo5bo12bo$196b2obob3o4bob2o3bo9bo$208bob2o8bo$203bob2ob2o7bo2bo$
204bo13bo$204b2obo$206bo$217b2o$217b2o69$117bo$117b2o$116b2obo$115b2o
2bo$114b3ob4o$113b2o2bobo2bo$113b3obobobo$113bob3ob2o$112bobo2b4o$113b
o3bo$113bo3bo$100b2o12bo2bo$100b2o6$134bobo$92b2o30bo7bobobo$92b2o30b
3o4bob2o2bo$124bob2obobo3b2o$124b5ob2o3b2o$99bo24b2o3b2obo$98b2o31bobo
$97bo2bo$97bobo$98b2o2$107bo$107bo$106bobo$102b2o2b3o$102bo5bo$102bo2b
3o7b3o8bob2o$102bob4o7bo3bo4b6o3bo$102bob2o2bo2bo5b3ob3o4bo5bo$103b8o
4bo5bo12bo$104b2obob3o4bob2o3bo9bo$116bob2o8bo$111bob2ob2o7bo2bo$112bo
13bo$112b2obo$114bo$125b2o$125b2o59$25bo$25b2o$24b2obo$23b2o2bo$22b3ob
4o$21b2o2bobo2bo$21b3obobobo$21bob3ob2o$20bobo2b4o$21bo3bo$21bo3bo$8b
2o12bo2bo$8b2o6$42bobo$2o30bo7bobobo$2o30b3o4bob2o2bo$32bob2obobo3b2o$
32b5ob2o3b2o$7bo24b2o3b2obo$6b2o31bobo$5bo2bo$5bobo$6b2o2$15bo$15bo$
14bobo$10b2o2b3o$10bo5bo$10bo2b3o7b3o8bob2o$10bob4o7bo3bo4b6o3bo$10bob
2o2bo2bo5b3ob3o4bo5bo$11b8o4bo5bo12bo$12b2obob3o4bob2o3bo9bo$24bob2o8b
o$19bob2ob2o7bo2bo$20bo13bo$20b2obo$22bo$33b2o$33b2o!
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 27th, 2018, 9:46 am

Here are the first 43 out of 59 gliders. Only two more GPSEs and the 2-engine Cordership need to be added:

x = 3006, y = 3100, rule = B3/S23
994bo$994bobo$994b2o25$141bobo$142b2o$142bo$973bo$971b2o$972b2o80$13bo
$14b2o$13b2o11$325bo$323b2o$324b2o25$111bo$109bobo$110b2o$302bo$301bo$
301b3o25$961bo$961bobo$961b2o25$172bobo$173b2o$173bo$940bo$938b2o$939b
2o16$28bo$29bo$27b3o2$2750bobo$2750b2o$2751bo115$305bo$304b2o$304bobo
512$974b3o$974bo$975bo116$941b3o$941bo$942bo61$1968bo$37bo1930bobo$35b
obo1930b2o$36b2o11$9bo$10b2o$9b2o4$1586bo$1585bo$1585b3o$66bo$67b2o$
66b2o9$1784bobo$1784b2o$40bo1744bo$41bo$39b3o42$31b2o$30bobo$32bo$931b
2o$930b2o$932bo17$bo$b2o$obo225$2747b2o$2746b2o$2748bo$1601b3o$1603bo$
1602bo17$2777b2o$2777bobo$2777bo1185$63bo$63b2o$62bobo95$2549bo$2547b
2o$2548b2o18$2446bobo$2447b2o$2447bo70bo$2517bo$2517b3o65$2521b2o$
2521bobo$2521bo19$2379bo$2377bobo$2378b2o30$36b2o$35bobo$37bo37$2381bo
$2381b2o$2380bobo2$2448b2o$2447b2o$2449bo25$2358b3o$2360bo$2359bo14$
1966bo$1965b2o$1965bobo2$106b2o$107b2o$106bo25$1987b3o$1987bo$1988bo
152$17bo$17b2o$16bobo$3003b2o$3003bobo$3003bo!


Note that two NW-bound gliders have been released ready to collide with the Cordership.

EDIT: and here's the Cordership (51/59):

x = 3006, y = 3100, rule = B3/S23
994bo$994bobo$994b2o25$141bobo$142b2o$142bo$973bo$971b2o$972b2o80$13bo
$14b2o$13b2o11$325bo$323b2o$324b2o25$111bo$109bobo$110b2o$302bo$301bo$
301b3o25$961bo$961bobo$961b2o25$172bobo$173b2o$173bo$940bo$938b2o$939b
2o16$28bo$29bo$27b3o2$2750bobo$2750b2o$2751bo115$305bo$304b2o$304bobo
263$324bo$325bo85bo$323b3o84bo$410b3o16$359bo$357bobo$358b2o$402bo$
401bo$401b3o14$352bo$353bo$351b3o2$382bo$382bobo$382b2o26$405bo$404b2o
$404bobo5$385b2o$384b2o$386bo170$974b3o$974bo$975bo116$941b3o$941bo$
942bo61$1968bo$37bo1930bobo$35bobo1930b2o$36b2o11$9bo$10b2o$9b2o4$
1586bo$1585bo$1585b3o$66bo$67b2o$66b2o9$1784bobo$1784b2o$40bo1744bo$
41bo$39b3o42$31b2o$30bobo$32bo$931b2o$930b2o$932bo17$bo$b2o$obo225$
2747b2o$2746b2o$2748bo$1601b3o$1603bo$1602bo17$2777b2o$2777bobo$2777bo
1185$63bo$63b2o$62bobo95$2549bo$2547b2o$2548b2o18$2446bobo$2447b2o$
2447bo70bo$2517bo$2517b3o65$2521b2o$2521bobo$2521bo19$2379bo$2377bobo$
2378b2o30$36b2o$35bobo$37bo37$2381bo$2381b2o$2380bobo2$2448b2o$2447b2o
$2449bo25$2358b3o$2360bo$2359bo14$1966bo$1965b2o$1965bobo2$106b2o$107b
2o$106bo25$1987b3o$1987bo$1988bo152$17bo$17b2o$16bobo$3003b2o$3003bobo
$3003bo!
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby Majestas32 » June 27th, 2018, 10:55 am

Instead of thinking about a synthesis of a small pattern like a pulsar, the example pattern should simply have the far Blse at minimum distance.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby Macbi » June 27th, 2018, 11:11 am

Could we construct (and even run in Golly) a patern that constructed a pulsar without deleting the rest of the RCT? That would be enough to demonstrate the possibility of universal construction, without being stupidly big (or at least not stupidly^2 big).
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 27th, 2018, 11:30 am

Macbi wrote:Could we construct (and even run in Golly) a patern that constructed a pulsar without deleting the rest of the RCT? That would be enough to demonstrate the possibility of universal construction, without being stupidly big (or at least not stupidly^2 big).

Sure, as long as we cheat and build the pulsar directly with the cheapest possible monochromatic recipe, instead of with the bichromatic p2 slow salvo that we're really supposed to be using. That would require an additional elbow to make the monochromatic p1 -> bichromatic p2 transition, which increases the cost of a slow salvo by I think one or two orders of magnitude.

I suspect that building enough Blockic one-time turners to produce a "cheap" bichromatic pulsar recipe will get us up into a size range that Golly will start having serious trouble with. The pattern might still load, but I'm not so sure about running it to completion.

I posted a very rough guess at the size for monochromatically building a pulsar -- full pattern somewhere near 10^90 x 10^90 -- but we won't really know until someone gets around to hunting through the monochromatic slow-salvo search tree to find the cheapest pulsar... or whatever not-too-expensive object we might choose instead.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby Majestas32 » June 27th, 2018, 11:34 am

A block.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 27th, 2018, 12:12 pm

Majestas32 wrote:A block.


We already have a block -- the BLSE produces lots of them. If all you want is a block, it's just a matter of deciding how big a space you want around the block, and then shooting down any other neighboring blocks that are too close.

Also, calcyman posted a minimal recipe for a block already. It was just one glider after the initial cleanup DFIRE, or two gliders if you count cleaning up the other block.

We have a different synthesis for the BLSE now, though. So we'll need a different recipe that uses existing ash from the BLSE construction to make an initial slow-salvo target at a safe distance.

Here's a starting point -- a recipe that shoots down the boat and loaf ash, leaving just the usual BLSE scattering of blocks. We can knock out any unwanted blocks the same way, leaving one as a target (at a distance that calcyman's recipe has already shown to be safe).

Just extend the line of glider triplets farther to the northwest, replace an occasional red glider with an active state, and see where the perpendicular glider comes out:

x = 915, y = 892, rule = LifeHistory
4.C.C$5.2C$5.C5$7.C$.E3.C.C$2.E3.2C$3E10$24.C.C$25.2C$25.C5$27.C$21.D
3.C.C$22.D3.2C$20.3D10$44.C.C$45.2C$45.C5$47.C$41.D3.C.C$42.D3.2C$40.
3D10$64.C.C$65.2C$65.C5$67.C$61.D3.C.C$62.D3.2C$60.3D10$84.C.C$85.2C$
85.C5$87.C$81.D3.C.C$82.D3.2C$80.3D10$104.C.C$105.2C$105.C5$107.C$
101.D3.C.C$102.D3.2C$100.3D10$124.C.C$125.2C$125.C5$127.C$121.D3.C.C$
122.D3.2C$120.3D10$144.C.C$145.2C$145.C5$147.C$141.D3.C.C$142.D3.2C$
140.3D10$164.C.C$165.2C$165.C5$167.C$161.D3.C.C$162.D3.2C$160.3D10$
184.C.C$185.2C$185.C5$187.C$181.D3.C.C$182.D3.2C$180.3D10$204.C.C$
205.2C$205.C5$207.C$201.D3.C.C$202.D3.2C$200.3D10$224.C.C$225.2C$225.
C5$227.C$221.D3.C.C$222.D3.2C$220.3D10$244.C.C$245.2C$245.C5$247.C$
241.D3.C.C$242.D3.2C$240.3D10$264.C.C$265.2C$265.C5$267.C$261.D3.C.C$
262.D3.2C$260.3D10$284.C.C$285.2C$285.C5$287.C$281.D3.C.C$282.D3.2C$
280.3D10$304.C.C$305.2C$305.C5$307.C$301.D3.C.C$302.D3.2C$300.3D10$
324.C.C$325.2C$325.C5$327.C$321.D3.C.C$322.D3.2C$320.3D10$344.C.C$
345.2C$345.C5$347.C$341.D3.C.C$342.D3.2C$340.3D10$364.C.C$365.2C$365.
C5$367.C$361.D3.C.C$362.D3.2C$360.3D10$384.C.C$385.2C$385.C5$387.C$
381.D3.C.C$382.D3.2C$380.3D10$404.C.C$405.2C$405.C5$407.C$401.D3.C.C$
402.D3.2C$400.3D10$424.C.C$425.2C$425.C5$427.C$421.D3.C.C$422.D3.2C$
420.3D10$444.C.C$445.2C$445.C5$447.C$441.D3.C.C$442.D3.2C$440.3D10$
464.C.C$465.2C$465.C5$467.C$461.D3.C.C$462.D3.2C$460.3D10$484.C.C$
485.2C$485.C5$487.C$481.D3.C.C$482.D3.2C$480.3D10$504.C.C$505.2C$505.
C5$507.C$501.D3.C.C$502.D3.2C$500.3D10$524.C.C$525.2C$525.C5$527.C$
521.D3.C.C$522.D3.2C$520.3D10$544.C.C$545.2C$545.C5$547.C$541.D3.C.C$
542.D3.2C$540.3D10$564.C.C$565.2C$565.C5$567.C$561.D3.C.C$562.D3.2C$
560.3D10$584.C.C$585.2C$585.C5$587.C$581.D3.C.C$582.D3.2C$580.3D10$
604.C.C$605.2C$605.C5$607.C$601.D3.C.C$602.D3.2C$600.3D10$624.C.C$
625.2C$625.C5$627.C$621.D3.C.C$622.D3.2C$620.3D10$644.C.C$645.2C$645.
C5$647.C$641.D3.C.C$642.D3.2C$640.3D10$664.C.C$665.2C$665.C5$667.C$
661.D3.C.C$662.D3.2C$660.3D10$684.C.C$685.2C$685.C5$687.C$681.D3.C.C$
682.D3.2C$680.3D10$704.C.C$705.2C$705.C5$707.C$701.D3.C.C$702.D3.2C$
700.3D10$724.C.C$725.2C$725.C5$727.C$721.D3.C.C$722.D3.2C$720.3D10$
744.C.C$745.2C$745.C5$747.C$741.D3.C.C$742.D3.2C$740.3D10$764.C.C$
765.2C$765.C5$767.C$761.E3.C.C$762.E3.2C$760.3E10$784.C.C$785.2C$785.
C5$787.C$781.D3.C.C$782.D3.2C$780.3D9$817.A$804.C.C9.A.A$805.2C10.2A$
805.C4$823.A$807.C14.A.A$801.D3.C.C13.A2.A18.2A$802.D3.2C14.2A19.2A$
800.3D$837.2A$837.2A3$833.2A$833.2A16.2A$851.2A3$823.2A$823.2A5$846.
2A$846.2A3$842.2A$842.2A$867.2A$867.2A2$861.2A$839.2A20.2A$839.2A2$
857.2A$857.2A16.2A$875.2A3$847.2A$847.2A5$870.2A$870.2A3$866.2A$866.
2A$891.2A$891.2A2$885.2A$863.2A20.2A$863.2A2$881.2A$881.2A16.2A$899.
2A3$871.2A$871.2A$894.2A$893.A.3A3.A$892.2A3.A3.A5.2A$894.A.2A2.A6.2A
$890.A$889.2A$879.2A4.2A4.A$879.2A4.A2.2A$886.2A$887.A5$887.2A$887.2A
7.2A$895.A2.A11.A$898.A3.A6.3A$895.5A3.A5.3A$897.A6.A7.3A$898.A3.2A$
898.2A!
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 27th, 2018, 12:39 pm

Here's an example recipe which clears the junk from around a distant block in the BLSE debris:

x = 6647, y = 6624, rule = B3/S23
6bo$4bobo$5b2o5$6bo$7b2o$obo3b2o$b2o$bo21$38bo$36bobo$37b2o5$38bo$39b
2o$38b2o23$70bo$68bobo$69b2o5$70bo$71b2o$70b2o23$102bo$100bobo$101b2o
5$102bo$103b2o$102b2o23$134bo$132bobo$133b2o5$134bo$135b2o$134b2o23$
166bo$164bobo$165b2o5$166bo$167b2o$166b2o23$198bo$196bobo$197b2o5$198b
o$199b2o$198b2o23$230bo$228bobo$229b2o5$230bo$231b2o$230b2o23$262bo$
260bobo$261b2o5$262bo$263b2o$262b2o23$294bo$292bobo$293b2o5$294bo$295b
2o$294b2o23$326bo$324bobo$325b2o5$326bo$327b2o$326b2o23$358bo$356bobo$
357b2o5$358bo$359b2o$358b2o23$390bo$388bobo$389b2o5$390bo$391b2o$390b
2o23$422bo$420bobo$421b2o5$422bo$423b2o$422b2o23$454bo$452bobo$453b2o
5$454bo$455b2o$454b2o23$486bo$484bobo$485b2o5$486bo$487b2o$486b2o23$
518bo$516bobo$517b2o5$518bo$519b2o$518b2o23$550bo$548bobo$549b2o5$550b
o$551b2o$550b2o23$582bo$580bobo$581b2o5$582bo$583b2o$582b2o23$614bo$
612bobo$613b2o5$614bo$615b2o$614b2o23$646bo$644bobo$645b2o5$646bo$647b
2o$646b2o23$678bo$676bobo$677b2o5$678bo$679b2o$678b2o23$710bo$708bobo$
709b2o5$710bo$711b2o$710b2o23$742bo$740bobo$741b2o5$742bo$743b2o$742b
2o23$774bo$772bobo$773b2o5$774bo$775b2o$774b2o23$806bo$804bobo$805b2o
5$806bo$807b2o$806b2o23$838bo$836bobo$837b2o5$838bo$839b2o$838b2o23$
870bo$868bobo$869b2o5$870bo$871b2o$870b2o23$902bo$900bobo$901b2o5$902b
o$903b2o$902b2o23$934bo$932bobo$933b2o5$934bo$935b2o$934b2o23$966bo$
964bobo$965b2o5$966bo$967b2o$966b2o23$998bo$996bobo$997b2o5$998bo$999b
2o$998b2o23$1030bo$1028bobo$1029b2o5$1030bo$1031b2o$1030b2o23$1062bo$
1060bobo$1061b2o5$1062bo$1063b2o$1062b2o23$1094bo$1092bobo$1093b2o5$
1094bo$1095b2o$1094b2o23$1126bo$1124bobo$1125b2o5$1126bo$1127b2o$1126b
2o23$1158bo$1156bobo$1157b2o5$1158bo$1159b2o$1158b2o23$1190bo$1188bobo
$1189b2o5$1190bo$1191b2o$1190b2o23$1222bo$1220bobo$1221b2o5$1222bo$
1223b2o$1222b2o23$1254bo$1252bobo$1253b2o5$1254bo$1255b2o$1254b2o23$
1286bo$1284bobo$1285b2o5$1286bo$1287b2o$1286b2o23$1318bo$1316bobo$
1317b2o5$1318bo$1319b2o$1318b2o23$1350bo$1348bobo$1349b2o5$1350bo$
1351b2o$1350b2o23$1382bo$1380bobo$1381b2o5$1382bo$1383b2o$1382b2o23$
1414bo$1412bobo$1413b2o5$1414bo$1415b2o$1414b2o23$1446bo$1444bobo$
1445b2o5$1446bo$1447b2o$1446b2o23$1478bo$1476bobo$1477b2o5$1478bo$
1479b2o$1478b2o23$1510bo$1508bobo$1509b2o5$1510bo$1511b2o$1510b2o23$
1542bo$1540bobo$1541b2o5$1542bo$1543b2o$1542b2o23$1574bo$1572bobo$
1573b2o5$1574bo$1575b2o$1574b2o23$1606bo$1604bobo$1605b2o5$1606bo$
1607b2o$1606b2o23$1638bo$1636bobo$1637b2o5$1638bo$1639b2o$1638b2o23$
1670bo$1668bobo$1669b2o5$1670bo$1671b2o$1670b2o23$1702bo$1700bobo$
1701b2o5$1702bo$1703b2o$1702b2o23$1734bo$1732bobo$1733b2o5$1734bo$
1735b2o$1734b2o23$1766bo$1764bobo$1765b2o5$1766bo$1767b2o$1766b2o23$
1798bo$1796bobo$1797b2o5$1798bo$1799b2o$1798b2o23$1830bo$1828bobo$
1829b2o5$1830bo$1831b2o$1830b2o23$1862bo$1860bobo$1861b2o5$1862bo$
1863b2o$1862b2o23$1894bo$1892bobo$1893b2o5$1894bo$1895b2o$1894b2o23$
1926bo$1924bobo$1925b2o5$1926bo$1927b2o$1926b2o23$1958bo$1956bobo$
1957b2o5$1958bo$1959b2o$1958b2o23$1990bo$1988bobo$1989b2o5$1990bo$
1991b2o$1990b2o23$2022bo$2020bobo$2021b2o5$2022bo$2023b2o$2022b2o23$
2054bo$2052bobo$2053b2o5$2054bo$2055b2o$2054b2o23$2086bo$2084bobo$
2085b2o5$2086bo$2087b2o$2086b2o23$2118bo$2116bobo$2117b2o5$2118bo$
2119b2o$2118b2o23$2150bo$2148bobo$2149b2o5$2150bo$2151b2o$2150b2o23$
2182bo$2180bobo$2181b2o5$2182bo$2183b2o$2182b2o23$2214bo$2212bobo$
2213b2o5$2214bo$2215b2o$2214b2o23$2246bo$2244bobo$2245b2o5$2246bo$
2247b2o$2246b2o23$2278bo$2276bobo$2277b2o5$2278bo$2279b2o$2278b2o23$
2310bo$2308bobo$2309b2o5$2310bo$2311b2o$2310b2o23$2342bo$2340bobo$
2341b2o5$2342bo$2343b2o$2342b2o23$2374bo$2372bobo$2373b2o5$2374bo$
2375b2o$2374b2o23$2406bo$2404bobo$2405b2o5$2406bo$2407b2o$2406b2o23$
2438bo$2436bobo$2437b2o5$2438bo$2439b2o$2432bobo3b2o$2433b2o$2433bo21$
2470bo$2468bobo$2469b2o5$2470bo$2471b2o$2470b2o23$2502bo$2500bobo$
2501b2o5$2502bo$2503b2o$2502b2o23$2534bo$2532bobo$2533b2o5$2534bo$
2535b2o$2534b2o23$2566bo$2564bobo$2565b2o5$2566bo$2567b2o$2566b2o23$
2598bo$2596bobo$2597b2o5$2598bo$2599b2o$2598b2o23$2630bo$2628bobo$
2629b2o5$2630bo$2631b2o$2630b2o23$2662bo$2660bobo$2661b2o5$2662bo$
2663b2o$2662b2o23$2694bo$2692bobo$2693b2o5$2694bo$2695b2o$2694b2o23$
2726bo$2724bobo$2725b2o5$2726bo$2727b2o$2726b2o23$2758bo$2756bobo$
2757b2o5$2758bo$2759b2o$2758b2o23$2790bo$2788bobo$2789b2o5$2790bo$
2791b2o$2790b2o23$2822bo$2820bobo$2821b2o5$2822bo$2823b2o$2822b2o23$
2854bo$2852bobo$2853b2o5$2854bo$2855b2o$2854b2o23$2886bo$2884bobo$
2885b2o5$2886bo$2887b2o$2886b2o23$2918bo$2916bobo$2917b2o5$2918bo$
2919b2o$2918b2o23$2950bo$2948bobo$2949b2o5$2950bo$2951b2o$2950b2o23$
2982bo$2980bobo$2981b2o5$2982bo$2983b2o$2982b2o23$3014bo$3012bobo$
3013b2o5$3014bo$3015b2o$3014b2o23$3046bo$3044bobo$3045b2o5$3046bo$
3047b2o$3046b2o23$3078bo$3076bobo$3077b2o5$3078bo$3079b2o$3078b2o23$
3110bo$3108bobo$3109b2o5$3110bo$3111b2o$3110b2o23$3142bo$3140bobo$
3141b2o5$3142bo$3143b2o$3142b2o23$3174bo$3172bobo$3173b2o5$3174bo$
3175b2o$3174b2o23$3206bo$3204bobo$3205b2o5$3206bo$3207b2o$3206b2o23$
3238bo$3236bobo$3237b2o5$3238bo$3239b2o$3238b2o23$3270bo$3268bobo$
3269b2o5$3270bo$3271b2o$3270b2o23$3302bo$3300bobo$3301b2o5$3302bo$
3303b2o$3302b2o23$3334bo$3332bobo$3333b2o5$3334bo$3335b2o$3334b2o23$
3366bo$3364bobo$3365b2o5$3366bo$3367b2o$3366b2o23$3398bo$3396bobo$
3397b2o5$3398bo$3399b2o$3398b2o23$3430bo$3428bobo$3429b2o5$3430bo$
3431b2o$3430b2o23$3462bo$3460bobo$3461b2o5$3462bo$3463b2o$3462b2o23$
3494bo$3492bobo$3493b2o5$3494bo$3495b2o$3494b2o23$3526bo$3524bobo$
3525b2o5$3526bo$3527b2o$3526b2o23$3558bo$3556bobo$3557b2o5$3558bo$
3559b2o$3558b2o23$3590bo$3588bobo$3589b2o5$3590bo$3591b2o$3590b2o23$
3622bo$3620bobo$3621b2o5$3622bo$3623b2o$3622b2o23$3654bo$3652bobo$
3653b2o5$3654bo$3655b2o$3654b2o23$3686bo$3684bobo$3685b2o5$3686bo$
3687b2o$3686b2o23$3718bo$3716bobo$3717b2o5$3718bo$3719b2o$3718b2o23$
3750bo$3748bobo$3749b2o5$3750bo$3751b2o$3750b2o23$3782bo$3780bobo$
3781b2o5$3782bo$3783b2o$3782b2o23$3814bo$3812bobo$3813b2o5$3814bo$
3815b2o$3814b2o23$3846bo$3844bobo$3845b2o5$3846bo$3847b2o$3846b2o23$
3878bo$3876bobo$3877b2o5$3878bo$3879b2o$3878b2o23$3910bo$3908bobo$
3909b2o5$3910bo$3911b2o$3910b2o23$3942bo$3940bobo$3941b2o5$3942bo$
3943b2o$3936bobo3b2o$3937b2o$3937bo21$3974bo$3972bobo$3973b2o5$3974bo$
3975b2o$3974b2o23$4006bo$4004bobo$4005b2o5$4006bo$4007b2o$4006b2o23$
4038bo$4036bobo$4037b2o5$4038bo$4039b2o$4038b2o23$4070bo$4068bobo$
4069b2o5$4070bo$4071b2o$4070b2o23$4102bo$4100bobo$4101b2o5$4102bo$
4103b2o$4102b2o23$4134bo$4132bobo$4133b2o5$4134bo$4135b2o$4134b2o23$
4166bo$4164bobo$4165b2o5$4166bo$4167b2o$4166b2o23$4198bo$4196bobo$
4197b2o5$4198bo$4199b2o$4198b2o23$4230bo$4228bobo$4229b2o5$4230bo$
4231b2o$4230b2o23$4262bo$4260bobo$4261b2o5$4262bo$4263b2o$4262b2o23$
4294bo$4292bobo$4293b2o5$4294bo$4295b2o$4294b2o23$4326bo$4324bobo$
4325b2o5$4326bo$4327b2o$4326b2o23$4358bo$4356bobo$4357b2o5$4358bo$
4359b2o$4358b2o23$4390bo$4388bobo$4389b2o5$4390bo$4391b2o$4390b2o23$
4422bo$4420bobo$4421b2o5$4422bo$4423b2o$4422b2o23$4454bo$4452bobo$
4453b2o5$4454bo$4455b2o$4454b2o23$4486bo$4484bobo$4485b2o5$4486bo$
4487b2o$4486b2o23$4518bo$4516bobo$4517b2o5$4518bo$4519b2o$4518b2o23$
4550bo$4548bobo$4549b2o5$4550bo$4551b2o$4550b2o23$4582bo$4580bobo$
4581b2o5$4582bo$4583b2o$4582b2o23$4614bo$4612bobo$4613b2o5$4614bo$
4615b2o$4614b2o23$4646bo$4644bobo$4645b2o5$4646bo$4647b2o$4646b2o23$
4678bo$4676bobo$4677b2o5$4678bo$4679b2o$4678b2o23$4710bo$4708bobo$
4709b2o5$4710bo$4711b2o$4710b2o23$4742bo$4740bobo$4741b2o5$4742bo$
4743b2o$4742b2o23$4774bo$4772bobo$4773b2o5$4774bo$4775b2o$4774b2o23$
4806bo$4804bobo$4805b2o5$4806bo$4807b2o$4806b2o23$4838bo$4836bobo$
4837b2o5$4838bo$4839b2o$4838b2o23$4870bo$4868bobo$4869b2o5$4870bo$
4871b2o$4870b2o23$4902bo$4900bobo$4901b2o5$4902bo$4903b2o$4902b2o23$
4934bo$4932bobo$4933b2o5$4934bo$4935b2o$4928bobo3b2o$4929b2o$4929bo21$
4966bo$4964bobo$4965b2o5$4966bo$4967b2o$4966b2o23$4998bo$4996bobo$
4997b2o5$4998bo$4999b2o$4998b2o23$5030bo$5028bobo$5029b2o5$5030bo$
5031b2o$5030b2o23$5062bo$5060bobo$5061b2o5$5062bo$5063b2o$5062b2o23$
5094bo$5092bobo$5093b2o5$5094bo$5095b2o$5094b2o23$5126bo$5124bobo$
5125b2o5$5126bo$5127b2o$5126b2o23$5158bo$5156bobo$5157b2o5$5158bo$
5159b2o$5158b2o23$5190bo$5188bobo$5189b2o5$5190bo$5191b2o$5190b2o23$
5222bo$5220bobo$5221b2o5$5222bo$5223b2o$5222b2o23$5254bo$5252bobo$
5253b2o5$5254bo$5255b2o$5254b2o23$5286bo$5284bobo$5285b2o5$5286bo$
5287b2o$5286b2o23$5318bo$5316bobo$5317b2o5$5318bo$5319b2o$5318b2o23$
5350bo$5348bobo$5349b2o5$5350bo$5351b2o$5350b2o23$5382bo$5380bobo$
5381b2o5$5382bo$5383b2o$5382b2o23$5414bo$5412bobo$5413b2o5$5414bo$
5415b2o$5414b2o23$5446bo$5444bobo$5445b2o5$5446bo$5447b2o$5446b2o23$
5478bo$5476bobo$5477b2o5$5478bo$5479b2o$5478b2o23$5510bo$5508bobo$
5509b2o5$5510bo$5511b2o$5510b2o23$5542bo$5540bobo$5541b2o5$5542bo$
5543b2o$5542b2o23$5574bo$5572bobo$5573b2o5$5574bo$5575b2o$5574b2o23$
5606bo$5604bobo$5605b2o5$5606bo$5607b2o$5606b2o23$5638bo$5636bobo$
5637b2o5$5638bo$5639b2o$5638b2o23$5670bo$5668bobo$5669b2o5$5670bo$
5671b2o$5670b2o23$5702bo$5700bobo$5701b2o5$5702bo$5703b2o$5702b2o23$
5734bo$5732bobo$5733b2o5$5734bo$5735b2o$5728bobo3b2o$5729b2o$5729bo21$
5766bo$5764bobo$5765b2o5$5766bo$5767b2o$5766b2o23$5798bo$5796bobo$
5797b2o5$5798bo$5799b2o$5798b2o23$5830bo$5828bobo$5829b2o5$5830bo$
5831b2o$5830b2o23$5862bo$5860bobo$5861b2o5$5862bo$5863b2o$5862b2o23$
5894bo$5892bobo$5893b2o5$5894bo$5895b2o$5894b2o23$5926bo$5924bobo$
5925b2o5$5926bo$5927b2o$5926b2o23$5958bo$5956bobo$5957b2o5$5958bo$
5959b2o$5958b2o23$5990bo$5988bobo$5989b2o5$5990bo$5991b2o$5990b2o23$
6022bo$6020bobo$6021b2o5$6022bo$6023b2o$6022b2o23$6054bo$6052bobo$
6053b2o5$6054bo$6055b2o$6054b2o23$6086bo$6084bobo$6085b2o5$6086bo$
6087b2o$6086b2o23$6118bo$6116bobo$6117b2o5$6118bo$6119b2o$6118b2o23$
6150bo$6148bobo$6149b2o5$6150bo$6151b2o$6150b2o23$6182bo$6180bobo$
6181b2o5$6182bo$6183b2o$6182b2o23$6214bo$6212bobo$6213b2o5$6214bo$
6215b2o$6214b2o23$6246bo$6244bobo$6245b2o5$6246bo$6247b2o$6246b2o23$
6278bo$6276bobo$6277b2o5$6278bo$6279b2o$6272bobo3b2o$6273b2o$6273bo21$
6310bo$6308bobo$6309b2o5$6310bo$6311b2o$6310b2o23$6342bo$6340bobo$
6341b2o5$6342bo$6343b2o$6342b2o23$6374bo$6372bobo$6373b2o5$6374bo$
6375b2o$6374b2o23$6406bo$6404bobo$6405b2o5$6406bo$6407b2o$6406b2o23$
6438bo$6436bobo$6437b2o5$6438bo$6439b2o$6438b2o23$6470bo$6468bobo$
6469b2o5$6470bo$6471b2o$6470b2o23$6502bo$6500bobo$6501b2o5$6502bo$
6503b2o$6502b2o23$6534bo$6532bobo$6533b2o5$6534bo$6535b2o$6534b2o18$
6573bo$6572bobo$6573b2o3$6566bo$6564bobo$6565b2o12bo$6578bobo$6577bo2b
o18b2o$6578b2o19b2o2$6566bo26b2o$6567b2o24b2o$6560bobo3b2o$6561b2o$
6561bo27b2o$6589b2o16b2o$6607b2o2$6578b2o$6578b2o6$6602b2o$6602b2o3$
6598b2o$6598b2o$6623b2o$6623b2o2$6617b2o$6595b2o20b2o$6595b2o2$6613b2o
$6613b2o16b2o$6631b2o3$6603b2o$6603b2o$6626b2o$6625bob3o3bo$6624b2o3bo
3bo5b2o$6626bob2o2bo6b2o$6622bo$6621b2o$6611b2o4b2o4bo$6611b2o4bo2b2o$
6618b2o$6619bo5$6619b2o$6619b2o7b2o$6627bo2bo11bo$6630bo3bo6b3o$6627b
5o3bo5b3o$6629bo6bo7b3o$6630bo3b2o$6630b2o!
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 27th, 2018, 12:46 pm

Oh, wow, we can defeat the Quadratic Problem altogether! Just use this type of recipe to edge-shoot a NW glider heading back towards the construction zone (on a lane slightly above the BLSE debris). This way, we get a NW-directed slow salvo with constant cost per glider. The gliders are all produced at increasing distance along the BLSE debris, but this is perfectly okay.

*size estimates for the block-keeper drop from 15 billion bits to 100000 bits*
What do you do with ill crystallographers? Take them to the mono-clinic!
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 27th, 2018, 1:02 pm

calcyman wrote:Oh, wow, we can defeat the Quadratic Problem altogether! Just use this type of recipe to edge-shoot a NW glider heading back towards the construction zone (on a lane slightly above the BLSE debris). This way, we get a NW-directed slow salvo with constant cost per glider. The gliders are all produced at increasing distance along the BLSE debris, but this is perfectly okay.

*size estimates for the block-keeper drop from 15 billion bits to 100000 bits*

By "constant cost per glider", you mean "constant cost for a glider on a given lane", right? NW-directed gliders on lanes farther out from the BLSE debris will still cost significantly more than gliders closer in.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 27th, 2018, 1:25 pm

Yes, but you only need boundedly many glider lanes to operate a secondary elbow.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby dvgrn » June 27th, 2018, 3:01 pm

calcyman wrote:Yes, but you only need boundedly many glider lanes to operate a secondary elbow.

Sounds good. There's probably a cleanup solution for the BLSE ash along the lines of chris_c's Corderships, where the cleanup spark doesn't care if any given block is there or not.

Not sure if that will bring a full block-keeper build within reach of a runnable demo pattern, but with simulated bits from the Cordership, fixed-separation like the pattern I posted above, a block-keeper build could be run to completion... somewhat painfully.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby chris_c » June 28th, 2018, 7:32 am

Here is a 59 glider synthesis showing a PULL and a DFIRE operation. The minimum population is 278 after 10,000 generations. It might be possible to reduce this a bit by making more of the switch engine syntheses coincide. You will certainly run into some impossible glider crossings if you try to synchronise them all though.

x = 9727, y = 9440, rule = B3/S23
7331bo$7331bobo$7331b2o25$522bobo$523b2o$523bo$7310bo$7308b2o$7309b2o
80$394bo$395b2o$394b2o11$5510bo$5508b2o$5509b2o3$9384bo$9384bobo$28bo
9355b2o$26bobo$27b2o18$492bo$490bobo$491b2o$5487bo$5486bo$5486b3o25$
7298bo$7298bobo$7298b2o25$553bobo$554b2o$554bo$7277bo$7275b2o$7276b2o
16$409bo$410bo$408b3o2$9471bobo$9471b2o$9472bo380$705bo$706bo6041bo$
704b3o6040bo$6747b3o16$740bo$738bobo$739b2o$6739bo$6738bo$6738b3o14$
733bo$734bo$732b3o2$6719bo$6719bobo$6719b2o2586$6489bo$418bo6070bobo$
416bobo6070b2o$417b2o11$390bo$391b2o$390b2o4$6107bo$6106bo$6106b3o$
447bo$448b2o$447b2o9$6305bobo$6305b2o$421bo5884bo$422bo$420b3o809$
9270bo$9268b2o$9269b2o18$4239bobo$4240b2o$4240bo4998bo$9238bo$9238b3o
86$4172bo$4170bobo$4171b2o950$5490bo$5489b2o$5489bobo726$9380b3o$9380b
o$3624bo5756bo$3624b2o$3623bobo18$9411b2o$9410b2o$9412bo208$9468b2o$
9467b2o$9469bo$3582b3o$3584bo$3583bo17$9498b2o$9498bobo$9498bo503$
6742bo$6741b2o$6741bobo5$6722b2o$6721b2o$6723bo170$7311b3o$7311bo$
7312bo116$7278b3o$7278bo$7279bo141$412b2o$411bobo$413bo$7268b2o$7267b
2o$7269bo17$382bo$382b2o$381bobo49$30b3o$32bo$31bo7026bo$7057b2o$7057b
obo18$2o$b2o$o1745$444bo$444b2o$443bobo184$9242b2o$9242bobo$9242bo51$
417b2o$416bobo$418bo37$4174bo$4174b2o$4173bobo2$9169b2o$9168b2o$9170bo
25$4151b3o$4153bo$4152bo14$6487bo$6486b2o$6486bobo2$487b2o$488b2o$487b
o25$6508b3o$6508bo$6509bo152$398bo$398b2o$397bobo$9724b2o$9724bobo$
9724bo!
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby Macbi » June 28th, 2018, 8:20 am

Congrats! Nice work.
The minimum population is 278
Sir Robin is 282. I bet nobody guessed that we would find a smaller knightship so quickly!
It might be possible to reduce this a bit by making more of the switch engine syntheses coincide. You will certainly run into some impossible glider crossings if you try to synchronise them all though.
If you were just trying to find the "smallest population knightship" then you could just use some kickbacks to get them all synchronised. That seems an equally worthy goal as the goal of trying to minimise the number of gliders. We could also forget about glider constructablity and look for the best result of the form "every glider constructable pattern has a predecessor with at most n cells". That might be useful for the analysis of SparseLife.
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby calcyman » June 28th, 2018, 9:08 am

Congratulations! I've edited the wiki accordingly, and awaiting Apple Bottom to change the protected number 329 to 59.

Sir Robin is 282. I bet nobody guessed that we would find a smaller knightship so quickly!


where 'find' should be 'prove the existence of'. Sir Bedevere hasn't been explicitly constructed yet, and I doubt anyone will overcome the Computational Masochism of engineering it -- at least in time to snatch POTY2018 from its older sibling.
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calcyman
 
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby chris_c » June 28th, 2018, 9:52 am

Thanks guys. I managed to get down to 58 gliders by switching from the 2-engine Cordership to a p96 boat puffer. I saw the boat puffer in this post by dbell (3rd codebox) although I'm not certain of the discoverer. For this puffer I managed to find a clean enough 7G synthesis instead of the 8G required for the Cordership. I did find some 7G almost-syntheses of the Cordership (2nd codebox below) but they were too messy. Maybe a suitable 7G synthesis exists --- my search was not very thorough.

x = 9727, y = 9440, rule = B3/S23
7331bo$7331bobo$7331b2o25$522bobo$523b2o$523bo$7310bo$7308b2o$7309b2o
80$394bo$395b2o$394b2o11$5510bo$5508b2o$5509b2o3$9384bo$9384bobo$28bo
9355b2o$26bobo$27b2o18$492bo$490bobo$491b2o$5487bo$5486bo$5486b3o25$
7298bo$7298bobo$7298b2o25$553bobo$554b2o$554bo$7277bo$7275b2o$7276b2o
16$409bo$410bo$408b3o2$9471bobo$9471b2o$9472bo372$6745bobo$6745b2o$
6746bo33$755bo$753bobo$754b2o$6724bo$6723bo$6723b3o6$733bo$734bo$732b
3o2$6719bo$6719bobo$6719b2o2586$6489bo$418bo6070bobo$416bobo6070b2o$
417b2o11$390bo$391b2o$390b2o4$6107bo$6106bo$6106b3o$447bo$448b2o$447b
2o9$6305bobo$6305b2o$421bo5884bo$422bo$420b3o809$9270bo$9268b2o$9269b
2o18$4239bobo$4240b2o$4240bo4998bo$9238bo$9238b3o86$4172bo$4170bobo$
4171b2o950$5490bo$5489b2o$5489bobo726$9380b3o$9380bo$3624bo5756bo$
3624b2o$3623bobo18$9411b2o$9410b2o$9412bo208$9468b2o$9467b2o$9469bo$
3582b3o$3584bo$3583bo17$9498b2o$9498bobo$9498bo481$6727bo$6726b2o$
6726bobo27$6722b2o$6721b2o$6723bo170$7311b3o$7311bo$7312bo59$412b2o$
411bobo$413bo$7068b2o$7067b2o$7069bo17$382bo$382b2o$381bobo33$7278b3o$
7278bo$7279bo214$30b3o$32bo$31bo7026bo$7057b2o$7057bobo18$2o$b2o$o
1745$444bo$444b2o$443bobo184$9242b2o$9242bobo$9242bo51$417b2o$416bobo$
418bo37$4174bo$4174b2o$4173bobo2$9169b2o$9168b2o$9170bo25$4151b3o$
4153bo$4152bo14$6487bo$6486b2o$6486bobo2$487b2o$488b2o$487bo25$6508b3o
$6508bo$6509bo152$398bo$398b2o$397bobo$9724b2o$9724bobo$9724bo!


x = 523, y = 81, rule = B3/S23
520bobo$520b2o$521bo11$41bo$39b2o$40b2o9$269bobo$269b2o$270bo6$8bo$6bo
bo$7b2o$23bo470bo$22bo469bobo$22b3o468b2o$499bo$498bo$498b3o6$472bo$
473bo$231bo239b3o28bo$229bobo269b2o$230b2o262bo6bobo$bo244bo247bobo$2b
o242bo248b2o$3o242b3o2$3bo22bo$3bobo19b2o$3b2o20bobo5$6b2o$5b2o$7bo3$
224bo$225bo$223b3o2$226bo22bo$226bobo19b2o$226b2o20bobo4$497b2o$229b2o
265b2o$228b2o268bo$230bo!


EDIT: Macbi, you make a good point about using kickbacks in order to minimise the population. Bonus points if someone does this and also replaces the 4G synthesis used for the GPSE's with a switch engine plus blinker or pre-block for extra population minimisation.
chris_c
 
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Re: Building a reverse caber-tosser

Postby Apple Bottom » June 28th, 2018, 1:24 pm

calcyman wrote:Congratulations! I've edited the wiki accordingly, and awaiting Apple Bottom to change the protected number 329 to 59.


Oh, oops. The template itself shouldn't be protected -- isn't, in fact -- but I foolishly used it on Template:CurrentNews, which is included on the Main Page, and as a result it ended up cascade-protected[1]. Mea culpa; I didn't consider that this would happen.

1. Cascading protection is a MediaWiki feature where a template or page in-/transcluded[2] by a protected page itself gets protected automatically, so in order to avoid loopholes that would allow changing the content of a protected page. It applies to indirect inclusions as well, so if protected page A includes page B, which includes page C, then C can't be edited by anyone who couldn't already edit A. That's what happened here.

2. I'm a little hazy on the distinction as well, but AFAIK "inclusion" is usually used when the page being pulled in is a template, and "transclusion" otherwise, the reasoning being that templates are specifically meant to be included, whereas other pages -- well, aren't.
If you speak, your speech must be better than your silence would have been. — Arabian proverb

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