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Thread For Your Bellman Finds

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Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Freywa » June 10th, 2013, 9:33 pm

I am trying to find a p19 oscillator with Bellman, using the p19 wick posted here as a starting point. The input file looks like this:
#S first-encounter 1
#S last-encounter 4
#S repair-interval 14
#S stable-interval 0
#S max-live 80
#S max-active 36
#P 2 2
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
???.......????
....@@@@@.....
...@.@@..@....
............@.
.@.........@.@
@.@.........@.
.@............
....@..@@.@...
.....@@@@@....
????.......???
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
??????????????
#F 19 2 8
???.......????
....*****.....
...*.**..*....
............*.
.*.........*.*
*.*.........*.
.*............
....*..**.*...
.....*****....
????.......???

I created this thread so other Bellman-related discoveries could be pooled into one place, as well as to create a sort of "help centre" where problems with the finicky search parameters could be resolved. :lol:

EDIT: Code to find the p41 oscillator based on the wick linked in the same thread linked above available below. Improvements are desperately welcomed.
#S first-encounter 25
#S last-encounter 29
#S repair-interval 5
#S stable-interval 10
#S max-live 14
#S max-active 8
#P 2 2
.......................@.......
.......................@.......
.......................@.......
???????........................
???????........................
???????........................
???????........................
???????............@.......@...
???????..........@@.@@...@@.@@.
???????............@.......@...
???????........................
???????............@.......@...
???????..........@@.@@...@@.@@.
???????............@.......@...
???????........................
???????........................
???????........................
???????........................
.......................@.......
.......................@.......
.......................@.......
#F 41 9 2
................*
................*
................*
.................
.................
.................
.................
............*....
..........**.**..
............*....
.................
............*....
..........**.**..
............*....
.................
.................
.................
.................
................*
................*
................*
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby simsim314 » January 9th, 2015, 2:33 pm

Here is pretty useless H->G, still it was discovered using bellman (and has some potential):

x = 16, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
10b2o$9bo2bo$10bobo$9b2o2b2o$11b2o2bo$9b2o2b2o$3o7bobo$bo7bo2bo$b3o6b
2o9$2b2o$2bo$3b3o$5bo!
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Sokwe » January 9th, 2015, 4:58 pm

I don't think there has been much searching for Herschel conduits with Bellman. One thing that might be a possibility is to replace the p4 sparker in this conduit with a still life (which could allow guns of periods 57, 58, and 61):
x = 38, y = 30, rule = B3/S23
4bo$4b3o$7bo$6b2o11b2o15b2o$19b2o15b2o6$5bo$5bobo$5b3o$7bo4$3bo3b2o$2b
obo3bo$bobo3bo$bo4bo7b3o$2o5b3o$9bo3bo3bo$13bo3bo2$13bo3bo$9b2obob3obo
b2o$10bobo5bobo$9bo2bobobobo2bo$9b2o2b2ob2o2b2o!


I described another possible use for Bellman here.

For some perspective, here are some Bellman reactions that were found previously:
x = 602, y = 65, rule = B3/S23
121b2o121b2o31b2o152b2o$121bo123bo31bo153bobo$113b2o3b2obo123bob2o25b
2obo155bo4b2o$113bo4bobo125bobo8bo7bo8bobo152b4ob2o2bo2bo$114b3obo129b
ob2o4bobo5bobo4b2obo154bo2bo3bobob2o$116bob2o59b2o66bobobo5bo7bo5bobob
o156bobobobo$179bobo61b2o2bo27bo2b2o153b2obobo$109b2o20b2o49bo2b2o56bo
bob2o25b2obobo157bo$109bo2b3o13b2o2bo47b2obo2bo53b2obobo31bobob2o$110b
2o8bobo5bob2o47bobob2o55bobob2o6bo4b3o3b3o4bo6b2obobo140b2o$115bo3bo7b
o52bo61bo8bobo3bobo3bobo3bobo8bo143bo8bo$115bo4bo2bo3bo112bobob2o6bo4b
3o3b3o4bo6b2obobo141bobo5b2o$110b2o9bobo4bob2o108b2obobo31bobob2o142b
2o$109bo2b3o13b2o2bo110bobob2o25b2obobo159bo$109b2o20b2o49b2o59b2o2bo
27bo2b2o160bo$181bo2bo62bobobo5bo7bo5bobobo162b3o$181bobo64bob2o4bobo
5bobo4b2obo$181bobo62bobo8bo7bo8bobo152bo$115b2o3b2o54b2o4bo62bob2o25b
2obo151b2o$115bobobobo53bobo18bo48bo31bo77bo4b2o66bobo4b2o22bo$112b2ob
obobo55bo20b3o45b2o31b2o75bobo2bobo73bo21b3o$112bobobo3bo2b2o49b2o23bo
155bo4bo75b3o17bo$116bob2o3bobo72b2o238bo17b2o$115bobo7bo53bobo$7b2o4b
2o36b2o18b2o42bobo7b2o52b2o12b2o13bo2b2o99b2o16b2o117bo52bo25bo50bo7b
2o$7bobo2bobo35bo2bo2b2o8b2o2bo2bo42bo63bo11b2o13bobo2bo98bo2bo14bo2bo
117b2o12b2o35bobo23bobo49b3o5b2o7bo$9bo2bo38b2o2bobo8bobo2b2o121bo5b3o
5b2obo99bobo16bobo33b2o81b2o14bo36bo25bo44bo8bo11b3o$8bo4bo39b2o14b2o
128bo3bo6bo99b2ob2o14b2ob2o28b2obo2bo38b2o56bob2o38bo15bo49b3o5b2o10bo
$8b2o2b2o39bo16bo129b2obo4b2o42b2o15b2o48b3o39bobo5b5o34bo9b2o37bo5b3o
2bo31b5o2b3o11b3o2b5o45bo16b2o$10b2o38b2obo6bo9bob2o128bo5bo42bobo15bo
bo38b2ob2o4bobo7b2ob2o27bo3bo5bo2bo31bo10bobo37b2o3bo3b2o31bo4bo5bo9bo
5bo4bo43b2o7bo$19b2o29bo2bob2o3b2o5b2obo2bo136bo40bo5bo7bo5bo39bobo5b
3o3b2o3bobo28bo3b2o8bo30b5o8bo5b2o35b2obo32bo2bo7b2o9b2o7bo2bo50bobo$
2o2b2o10b2o2bo31b2ob2o3bo7bob2o90b2o45b2o38b2obo3bobo5bobo3bob2o37bobo
16bobo29bo8b2o3bo34bo13bo22b2o15bo29bo2bob2o27b2obo2bo46bo3bo$o2bo12bo
b2o142bo82b2obo2bo5bo7bo5bo2bob2o32b2ob2o14b2ob2o29bo2bo5bo3bo31b3o12b
obo21bobo12b3o29bobobo5bo21bo5bobobo45bo3bo8b2ob2o$bob2o5bo4bo100bo47b
o5bo75bob2o23b2obo34bobo16bobo31b5o5bobo30bo15b2o22bo13bo33bo2bo4bobo
19bobo4bo2bo29b2o15bo3bo8b2obo2bo$2bo6b2o4bo90b2o7bobo45b2o4bob2o73bo
29bo34bobo5b3o3b2o3bobo36bo2bob2o31bob2o35b2o5bo8b5o31b2o2bo2bo5b3o3b
3o5bo2bo2b2o31bo2bo2b2o11bobo12bob2o$3b2o5bo5bob2o32b2ob2o3bo7bob2o35b
o7bobo44bo6bo3bo71b2o29b2o32b2ob2o4bobo7b2ob2o36b2o33b2o3bo3b2o37bobo
10bo36b2o6bobo3bobo6b2o37b2o2bobo12bo13bo$4bo11b2o2bo29bo2bob2o3b2o5b
2obo2bo33bobo3b2obo44bob2o5b3o5bo73bo4b3o3b3o4bo48b3o82bo2b3o5bo37b2o
9bo46b3o3b3o47b2o28b2o$2bo16b2o29b2obo6bo9bob2o34b2o2bo3bobobo39bo2bob
o13b2o11bo58bobo3bobo3bobo3bobo38b2ob2o14b2ob2o70b2obo56b2o101bo26bobo
2b2o$2b2o49bo16bo42bobobob2o3b2o34b2o2bo13b2o12b2o58bo4b3o3b3o4bo40bob
o16bobo38b2o34bo14b2o77b2o25b2o34b2obo26b2o2bo2bo$10b2o41b2o14b2o40bob
obobo6bo66bobo48b2o2b2o27b2o2b2o30bo2bo14bo2bo38bobo33b2o12b2o78bo2bo
21bo2bo34bo2bob2o28b2o$8b2o2b2o37b2o2bobo8bobo2b2o38b2o3b2o7bo47b2o67b
o2bobo27bobo2bo31b2o16b2o40bo5bo3b2o39bo78b3o21b3o37b2ob2o$8bo4bo36bo
2bo2b2o8b2o2bo2bo46b2o2b2o47bo23b2o45b2o31b2o96bobobo3bo114b2o31b2o$9b
o2bo38b2o18b2o47bobo51b3o20bo47bo31bo92b6ob2o3bo32b2o17bo63bo2bob2o21b
2obo2bo$7bobo2bobo107bob4o48bo18bobo47bobo27bobo92bo10bo34bo17b3o63b2o
bo23bob2o$7b2o4b2o106b2obo2bo62bo4b2o49b2o27b2o96b4ob4obo29b3o21bo65bo
23bo43b2o$127bob2obo56bobo60bo4b3o3b3o4bo102bo2bobo3bobo28bo22b2o4bobo
58b2o3b2o11b2o3b2o44bo10b2o$109bobo14b2obob2o56bobo59bobo3bobo3bobo3bo
bo109bo2bo57b2o65bo11bo47b3o11bo$109bo2bo75bo2bo60bo4b3o3b3o4bo111b2o
59bo62b3o13b3o44bo7b2o5b3o7bo$103b2o8bo12b3o60b2o315bo17bo52b2o7bo8b2o
$103bo2bo3bobo7bobo3bo2bo302b3o159b2o$104b3o12bo8b2o114b2o31b2o153bo$
120bo2bo121bo31bo155bo$100b2obob2o14bobo68bo52bobo27bobo168b2o$100bob
2obo82b2obobo52b2o27b2o162b2o5bobo$105bo2bob2o74bo2bob2o59bo4b3o3b3o4b
o168bo8bo$105b4obo75b2o2bo60bobo3bobo3bobo3bobo176b2o$110bobo78bobo58b
o4b3o3b3o4bo$107b2o2b2o79b2o51b2o29b2o157bo$107bo7b2o3b2o124bo29bo157b
obob2o$108bo6bobobobo124bob2o23b2obo157bobobobo$109bo3bobobobo125b2obo
2bo5bo7bo5bo2bob2o153b2obobo3bo2bo$110bobobobo3bo2b2o124b2obo3bobo5bob
o3bob2o157bo2bo2b2ob4o$111b2obo2b3o3bobo125bo5bo7bo5bo161b2o4bo$115bob
o7bo125bobo15bobo167bobo$116bo8b2o125b2o15b2o169b2o!
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby simsim314 » January 9th, 2015, 6:41 pm

Sokwe wrote:One thing that might be a possibility is to replace the p4 sparker in this conduit with a still life (which could allow guns of periods 57, 58, and 61):


Well here it is:

x = 36, y = 109, rule = LifeHistory
4.A$4.3A$7.A$6.2A11.2A11.D$19.2A9.3D$30.D.D$30.D4$5.C$5.C.C$5.3C$7.C
4$3.A3.2A$2.A.A3.A$.A.A3.A$.A4.A$2A5.3A5.2A.2A$9.A6.A.A$14.A.A.A.A$
14.2A3.2A21$4.A$4.3A$7.A$6.2A11.2A11.D$19.2A9.3D$30.D.D$30.D4$5.C$5.C
.C$5.3C$7.C4$3.A3.2A$2.A.A3.A$.A.A3.A12.2A$.A4.A13.A.A$2A5.3A12.A$9.A
12.2A19$7.A$7.3A$10.A$9.2A11.2A11.D$22.2A9.3D$33.D.D$33.D4$8.C$8.C.C
17.2A.2A$8.3C18.A.A$10.C18.A.A$28.2A.A.2A$25.2A2.A.A.A.A$25.2A.A2.A2.
2A$6.A3.2A16.A.2A$5.A.A3.A13.2A.A.A$4.A.A3.A8.2A4.A2.A.A$4.A4.A9.2A6.
2A.2A$3.2A5.3A$12.A!


- The first options seems to me better than the ugly sparker in any parameter.

- The second options uses simple eater. I don't know why anyone placed spraker/super large SL there. This is should have been found with the standard catalyst search.

- The third is the current Hersrch conduit named vfx77sw.rle (Is there newer version of Hersrch after Dec. 2012?).

EDIT Thx for the tip. I was hoping to find new stuff from scratch, but the idea of replacing oscillators with SL in the conduits sound to me more productive, at least for the first trials.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby calcyman » January 9th, 2015, 6:59 pm

The point of the sparker is that it liberates an additional glider, which is precisely what we need...

Can we get a p29 pipsquirter based on any of the existing oscillators? That could yield a p58 gun.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Sokwe » January 9th, 2015, 7:20 pm

simsim314 wrote:Well here it is

As Calcyman said, the extra output glider is essential. The conduit could potentially repeat at periods as low as 51, but the first natural glider (FNG) of the previous Herschel collides with the following Herschel. This was remedied in the p54, p55, and p56 guns by deleting the FNG with a sparker, but we have no sufficient sparkers for any periods below 54. The problem with periods 57, 58, and 61 (and 59) is that there are no known sparkers that can release the extra glider.

calcyman wrote:Can we get a p29 pipsquirter based on any of the existing oscillators? That could yield a p58 gun.

The only p29 pipsquirter I know of is this one (and trivial variants):
x = 23, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
8bo$8b3o$11bo$10b2o4bo$16bo2$13bo$7b2o4b3o5b2o$7b2o4bo7b2o3$3b2o$3bo7b
o$2obo7b3o6bo$o2b2o6bo7bobo$b2o4bo7bo4bo$3b5o6bo$3bo4b2o4bo$4b2o2bo$6b
obo$6bobobo2bo$7b2ob4o$9bo$9bobo$10b2o!

Unfortunately, the eater gets in the way of the conduit, and I highly doubt that this problem could be fixed.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby simsim314 » January 9th, 2015, 7:34 pm

calcyman wrote:The point of the sparker is that it liberates an additional glider


Woops got you...will continue to search deeper. Thx.

I also found the obvious variation with the eater inside Hersrch.
Last edited by simsim314 on January 9th, 2015, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Extrementhusiast » January 9th, 2015, 7:46 pm

Speaking of Herschel conduits, I've been looking for something stable to replace the unix in my Lx79p6 conduit:
x = 27, y = 34, rule = B3/S23
15b2o$14bo2bo$17bo$17bo$11bo3bobo$10bo3bobo$10bo4bo$11b4o7$22bo$2o20bo
$bo20b3o$bobo20bo$2b2o3$20bo3b2o$15b2o2bobo3bo$15bo3b2o3bo$16b3o4bo$
18bob4obo$19b2o3bobo$23bo2bo$24b2o2$3b3o7b2o$4bo8bobo$4b3o8bo$15b2o!
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Kazyan » January 24th, 2015, 12:19 am

Some herschels hitting some things. The searches are still running. Repair-interval and max-active are both set to 9.

x = 135, y = 63, rule = B3/S23
36b2o$37bo$36bo$36b2o61b2o$39b2o25bo31bo2bob2o$6b2o28b3obo24bobo30b2ob
ob2o$7bo27bo2bobob2o22bo34bo$7bob2o24b2o2b2obo2bo52b2obob2o$6b2o2bo31b
ob2o52b2obo2bo$5bo2bo33bo59b2o3b2o$6b2o33b2o27b2o31bobo2bo21b2o$68bo2b
o31bob3o20bo2bo$6b2o60b3o26b2obo3bo23b3o$7bo63b3o23b2ob4o2b2o23b3o$7bo
bo58b2obo2bo32bo20b2obo2bo$8b2o59bobobo23b2ob2o4bo22bobobo$69bobob2o
23bobo5b2o21bobob2o$70bo27bobo29bo$99bo2$b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o$2bo
29bo29bo29bo29bo$3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o16$32b2o$32b2o2$32b4o$31bo4bo
24b2o$7b2o23b3obo25bo$6bo2bo24bob2o24bob2o$6b3o52b2obo$4b2o29b3o21bo2b
obo$3bo2b3o25bo2bo21b2o3b2o$3b2o3bo25b2o27bo2bo$63b3o2$5b2o52b2obob2o$
4bobo52bob2ob2o$4bo$3b2o6$17b3o27b3o27b3o$18bo29bo29bo$16b3o27b3o27b3o
!


I couldn't make any of them into conduits just by placing normal catalysts, though admittedly I didn't try that hard. This one looks to have the most potential:

x = 37, y = 28, rule = B3/S23
27b2o$27b2o4$2b2o$3bo$3bob2o$2b2obo$o2bobo$2o3b2o$4bo2bo$4b3o2$2obob2o
$ob2ob2o2$30b2obo$30b2ob3o$36bo$30b2ob3o$31bobo$31bobo$18b3o11bo$9b2o
8bo$10bo6b3o$7b3o$7bo!


EDIT: Some more.

x = 88, y = 62, rule = B3/S23
54b2o$54bo$55bo29b2o$54b2o29bo$25b2o26bo32bo$25bo27b3o29b2o$23bobo30bo
27bo$23b2o5bo24b2o27b3o$29bobo55bo$29bob3o52b2o$28b2o4bo$24b2obo2bob2o
19b2obo26b2o$24b2obob2obo20b2ob3o24bobo$27bo4bo26bo25bo$24b2obob3o21b
2ob3o26b2o$24bo2bobo24bobo$25b2o27bobo$55bo2$16b3o27b3o27b3o$17bo29bo
29bo$15b3o27b3o27b3o19$2o$bo2b2o66bo$bobobo30bo34bobo$2bo32bobo34bo$
34bobo30b2o$4b2o28bo33bo$3bobo23bob2ob2o31bo$4bo24b2obo34b2o$32bo37bo$
32b2o33b4o$67bo$68b3o$63bo2bobo2bo$63b4obobo$68bob2o$65b3o$65bo3$16b3o
27b3o33b3o$17bo29bo35bo$15b3o27b3o33b3o!
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Extrementhusiast » January 24th, 2015, 1:59 pm

One of them can be made into an alternate stabilization for a known H-to-R conduit:
x = 69, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
2o43b2o$bo44bo$bobo42bobo$2b2o43b2o6$22b2o43b2o$2bo19b2o23bo19b2o$2bob
o42bobo$2b3o42b3o$4bo44bo$64b2o$19bo44b2o$18bobo$19bo$10bob2o$8b3obo$
7bo4bobo$8b4ob2o40b2o$11bo44bo$8b2obo41b3o$8bobo42bo!


Also, what about a parallel search with adding an eater to the base, à la the start of Fx77?

EDIT: Another one of them gives a possibly new H-to-G:
x = 30, y = 24, rule = B3/S23
2o$bo2b2o$bobobo$2bo2$4b2o$3bobo$4bo4$26b2o$26bobo$28bo$28b2o5$16b3o$
7b2o8bo$8bo6b3o$5b3o$5bo!
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby dvgrn » January 24th, 2015, 4:20 pm

Kazyan wrote:Some herschels hitting some things. The searches are still running. Repair-interval and max-active are both set to 9.
...
I couldn't make any of them into conduits just by placing normal catalysts, though admittedly I didn't try that hard.

There's definitely a lot of potential here. Some are much more likely to work out than others, but most of them would probably be worth a ptbsearch/catalyst run to see if a Herschel can be coaxed out of the active junk.

Without a search utility, the best I could do with a few minutes of experimentation on the likeliest candidate was to produce a second parallel glider, making a G18 output. Unfortunately this appears to be one cell too close to make the most efficient transceiver -- there's a spark that interferes with an eater at the last minute:

#C not-quite-successful Herschel transceiver
x = 70, y = 99, rule = LifeHistory
38.2A$37.A2.A$38.2A4$37.8B$37.9B$37.9B$37.9B$38.4B3.B2.2A$39.4B.2B.B
2AB$39.2B3.2B2.2B$40.6B3.2B$40.7B.2BAB$40.9BA.A$41.8B.A$41.6B4.3A$40.
6B7.A$40.7B$41.6B$41.6B$41.7B2.2B$41.13B$39.16B$39.16B$38.17B$38.17B$
37.19B$36.19B$36.19B$35.20B$35.20B$35.20B$34.13BA7B$34.12BABA6B$33.
13BA2BA2B$33.14B2A3B$31.17B$30.15B$30.15B$26.2B.17B$25.2A20B$25.2A20B
$26.2B.2AB.15B$29.2AB2.15B$33.10B2A5B$33.10B2A5B$33.18B$19.2A3.2A6.
20B$20.A3.A7.11B3.6B$19.A6.A2.A3.B.8B.9B$19.2A4.5A4.10B.BA7B.B$22.2A
11.10BABA5B.B2A$19.2A.A.4A5.12BABA7B2A$19.2A.A.A2.A5.2A.10BA6B.2B$7.
2A12.2BA3B7.A3.15B$8.A12.B.3B5.3A5.9B.4B$8.A.AB7.6B6.A4.2B.10B.4B$9.
2AB.3B3.7B9.2A13B.4B$11.16B8.2AB.7B.B4.4B$11.17B8.B.9B6.4B8.A$12.16B
11.6B2.2A5.4B5.5A$11.17B11.6B3.A5.4B4.A5.A$9.19B10.4B6.A.AB.7B2.B3A2.
A$7.22B8.4B8.2AB.7B3.2B.A.2A$7.2BA20B6.4B11.12B4A2.A$6.3BABA4B.12B6.
4B12.7B2A3BAB2.2A$7.2B3A4B2.11B5.4B13.7B2A2B.B3A$6.5BA4B2.11B4.4B14.
10B3.B.A$5.10B4.11B2.4B14.8B8.A.2A$4.4B10.17B14.9B7.2A.2A$3.4B11.16B
14.4B2.3B$2.4B12.15B14.4B3.5B$2.2A13.17B12.4B7.2A$3.A13.17B11.4B8.A$
3A14.16B2A9.4B10.3A$A17.15B2A8.4B13.A$16.18B8.4B$14.A.2A14B9.4B$12.3A
B2AB2.11B8.4B$11.A4.B5.10B7.4B$12.3A.2A5.9B6.4B$14.A.A8.7B5.4B$14.A.A
7.8B4.4B$15.A8.8B3.4B$23.9B2.4B$23.14B$23.13B$23.12B$24.10B$25.8B$25.
7B$25.7B$26.7B$27.4B.B2A$28.3B.BA.A$29.B5.A$35.2A!

... We could convert that from a bug to a feature by adding a few more Snarks, to produce a transceiver that's adjustable in two dimensions instead of just one:

#C Kazyan's 2D Herschel transceiver
x = 301, y = 168, rule = LifeHistory
224.2A3.2A$205.2A3.2A12.2A2.A.3A$205.2A2.A.3A14.A4.A23.2A$209.A4.A9.
4A.2A2.A22.B2AB$205.4A.2A2.A9.A2.A.A.A.2A21.4B$205.A2.A.A.A.2A10.BABA
BA.A23.2B$207.BABABA.A12.B2ABA.A21.2A3B$208.B2ABA.A13.2B.BA22.2A5B$
209.2B.BA13.3B12.2A11.8B30.2B$208.3B7.2A6.4B13.A6.2B5.6B29.5B$199.2A
6.4B8.A6.B2A3B11.A.AB2.6B.9B26.7B$200.A6.B2A3B6.A.AB3.B2A3B12.2AB.B.
17B23.8B$200.A.AB3.B2A3B7.2AB.10B6.2A4.24B20.9B$201.2AB.10B7.13B4.B2A
B2.27B18.10B$203.13B6.14B4.3B2.28B18.8BA$203.14B5.15B2.B.B2.31B15.8BA
BA$203.15B6.8B2.43B11.10BABA$205.8B2.4B5.6B5.42B4.2B2.14BAB$205.6B5.
4B3.9B4.64B$204.9B4.4B.4B4.2A4.64B$19.2A3.2A28.2A3.2A108.2A3.2A27.4B
4.2A5.7B5.A6.16B2A43B$20.A3.A10.2A3.2A12.2A2.A.3A107.A3.A27.4B5.A7.5B
7.3A2.17B2A43B$19.A6.A2.A5.2A2.A.3A14.A4.A23.2A80.A6.A2.A21.4B7.3A4.
5B9.A3.9B2A12B2.32B2.B$19.2A4.5A9.A4.A9.4A.2A2.A22.B2AB79.2A4.5A20.4B
10.A3.7B14.B.4BA2BA10B3.2B2A16B.4B$22.2A11.4A.2A2.A9.A2.A.A.A.2A21.4B
82.2A25.4B14.4B.4B16.4B2A9B5.BA2BA12B5.2B3.B$19.2A.A.4A7.A2.A.A.A.2A
10.BABABA.A23.2B80.2A.A.4A20.4B14.4B3.4B10.A6.12B7.ABA12B6.3B.B2A$19.
2A.A.A2.A9.BABABA.A12.B2ABA.A21.2A3B79.2A.A.A2.A19.4B14.4B5.4B7.3A5.
12B8.BA13B7.A3B2A$7.2A12.2BA3B11.B2ABA.A13.2B.BA22.2A5B65.2A12.2BA3B
19.4B14.4B7.4B5.A7.11B10.16B5.A.AB.B$8.A12.B.3B13.2B.BA13.3B12.2A11.
8B30.2B33.A12.B.3B19.4B14.4B9.4B4.2A5.11B11.16B4.A.AB$8.A.AB7.6B13.3B
7.2A6.4B13.A6.2B5.6B29.5B31.A.AB7.6B19.4B14.4B11.9B4.10B15.13B5.A$9.
2AB.3B3.7B3.2A6.4B8.A6.B2A3B11.A.AB2.6B.9B26.7B31.2AB.3B3.7B17.4B14.
4B13.6B5.4B3.B.B16.13B4.2A$11.16B3.A6.B2A3B6.A.AB3.B2A3B12.2AB.B.17B
23.8B33.16B15.4B14.4B14.8B2.4B3.3B17.12B$11.17B2.A.AB3.B2A3B7.2AB.10B
6.2A4.24B20.9B32.17B13.4B14.4B13.15B4.B2AB23.B$12.16B3.2AB.10B7.13B4.
B2AB2.27B18.10B32.16B12.4B14.4B14.14B6.2A$11.17B5.13B6.14B4.3B2.28B
18.8BA31.17B11.4B14.4B15.13B$9.19B5.14B5.15B2.B.B2.31B15.8BABA28.19B
10.4B14.4B14.2AB.10B$7.22B4.15B6.8B2.43B11.10BABA26.22B8.4B14.4B14.A.
AB3.B2A3B$7.2BA20B5.8B2.4B5.6B5.42B4.2B2.14BAB26.2BA20B6.4B14.4B15.A
6.B2A3B$6.3BABA4B.12B6.6B5.4B3.9B4.64B26.3BABA4B.12B6.4B14.4B15.2A6.
4B$7.2B3A4B2.11B5.9B4.4B.4B4.2A4.64B27.2B3A4B2.11B5.4B14.4B25.3B$6.5B
A4B2.11B4.4B4.2A5.7B5.A6.16B2A43B28.5BA4B2.11B4.4B14.4B27.2B.BA$5.10B
4.11B2.4B5.A7.5B7.3A2.17B2A43B27.10B4.11B2.4B14.4B27.B2ABA.A$4.4B10.
17B7.3A4.5B9.A3.9B2A12B2.32B2.B27.4B10.17B14.4B27.BABABA.A$4.3B11.16B
10.A3.7B14.B.4BA2BA10B3.2B2A16B.4B37.3B11.16B14.4B26.A2.A.A.A.2A$2.4B
12.15B14.4B.4B16.4B2A9B5.BA2BA12B5.2B3.B32.4B12.15B14.4B27.4A.2A2.A$
2.2A13.17B12.4B3.4B10.A6.12B7.ABA12B6.3B.B2A31.2A13.17B12.4B32.A4.A$
3.A13.17B11.4B5.4B7.3A5.12B8.BA13B7.A3B2A32.A13.17B11.4B29.2A2.A.3A$
3A14.16B2A9.4B7.4B5.A7.11B10.16B5.A.AB.B30.3A14.16B2A9.4B30.2A3.2A$A
17.15B2A8.4B9.4B4.2A5.11B11.16B4.A.AB33.A17.15B2A8.4B$16.18B8.4B11.9B
4.10B15.13B5.A52.18B8.4B$14.A.2A14B9.4B13.6B5.4B3.B.B16.13B4.2A50.A.
2A14B9.4B$12.3AB2AB2.11B8.4B14.8B2.4B3.3B17.12B55.3AB2AB2.11B8.4B$11.
A4.B5.10B7.4B13.15B4.B2AB23.B58.A4.B5.10B7.4B$12.3A.2A5.9B6.4B14.14B
6.2A84.3A.2A5.9B6.4B$14.A.A8.7B5.4B15.13B95.A.A8.7B5.4B$14.A.A7.8B4.
4B14.2AB.10B96.A.A7.8B4.4B$15.A8.8B3.4B14.A.AB3.B2A3B99.A8.8B3.4B$23.
9B2.4B15.A6.B2A3B107.9B2.4B$23.14B15.2A6.4B109.14B$23.13B25.3B109.13B
$23.12B27.2B.BA106.12B$24.10B27.B2ABA.A106.10B$25.8B27.BABABA.A107.8B
$25.7B26.A2.A.A.A.2A106.7B$25.7B26.4A.2A2.A107.7B$26.7B29.A4.A108.7B$
27.4B.B2A23.2A2.A.3A110.4B.B2A$28.3B.BA.A22.2A3.2A113.3B.BA.A$29.B5.A
143.B5.A$35.2A148.2A31$19.2A3.2A28.2A3.2A$20.A3.A10.2A3.2A12.2A2.A.3A
$19.A6.A2.A5.2A2.A.3A14.A4.A$19.2A4.5A9.A4.A9.4A.2A2.A$22.2A11.4A.2A
2.A9.A2.A.A.A.2A$19.2A.A.4A7.A2.A.A.A.2A10.BABABA.A$19.2A.A.A2.A9.BAB
ABA.A12.B2ABA.A$7.2A12.2BA3B11.B2ABA.A13.2B.BA$8.A12.B.3B13.2B.BA13.
3B$8.A.AB7.6B13.3B7.2A6.4B$9.2AB.3B3.7B3.2A6.4B8.A6.B2A3B$11.16B3.A6.
B2A3B6.A.AB3.B2A3B$11.17B2.A.AB3.B2A3B7.2AB.10B$12.16B3.2AB.10B7.13B$
11.17B5.13B6.14B$9.19B5.14B5.15B$7.22B4.15B6.8B2.4B$7.2BA20B5.8B2.4B
5.6B5.4B$6.3BABA4B.12B6.6B5.4B3.9B4.4B$7.2B3A4B2.11B5.9B4.4B.4B4.2A5.
4B$6.5BA4B2.11B4.4B4.2A5.7B5.A7.4B$5.10B4.11B2.4B5.A7.5B7.3A5.4B$4.4B
10.17B7.3A4.5B9.A6.4B33.2A$4.3B11.16B10.A3.7B16.4B31.B2AB$2.4B12.15B
14.4B.4B16.4B30.4B$2.2A13.17B12.4B3.4B16.4B30.2B$3.A13.17B11.4B5.4B
16.4B27.2A3B$3A14.16B2A9.4B7.4B16.4B26.2A5B$A17.15B2A8.4B9.4B16.4B12.
2A11.8B30.2B$16.18B8.4B11.4B16.4B12.A6.2B5.6B29.5B$14.A.2A14B9.4B13.
4B16.4B11.A.AB2.6B.9B26.7B$12.3AB2AB2.11B8.4B15.4B16.4B11.2AB.B.17B
23.8B$11.A4.B5.10B7.4B17.4B16.4B6.2A4.24B20.9B$12.3A.2A5.9B6.4B19.4B
16.4B4.B2AB2.27B18.10B$14.A.A8.7B5.4B21.4B16.4B4.3B2.28B18.8BA$14.A.A
7.8B4.4B23.4B16.4B2.B.B2.31B15.8BABA$15.A8.8B3.4B25.4B16.43B11.10BABA
$23.9B2.4B27.4B16.42B4.2B2.14BAB$23.14B29.4B16.64B$23.13B31.4B15.64B$
23.12B33.4B15.16B2A43B$24.10B35.4B13.17B2A43B$25.8B37.4B13.9B2A12B2.
32B2.B$25.7B39.4B14.B.4BA2BA10B3.2B2A16B.4B$25.7B40.4B16.4B2A9B5.BA2B
A12B5.2B3.B$26.7B40.4B10.A6.12B7.ABA12B6.3B.B2A$27.4B.B2A39.4B7.3A5.
12B8.BA13B7.A3B2A$28.3B.BA.A39.4B5.A7.11B10.16B5.A.AB.B$29.B5.A40.4B
4.2A5.11B11.16B4.A.AB$35.2A40.9B4.10B15.13B5.A$78.6B5.4B3.B.B16.13B4.
2A$78.8B2.4B3.3B17.12B$76.15B4.B2AB23.B$76.14B6.2A$76.13B$74.2AB.10B$
73.A.AB3.B2A3B$73.A6.B2A3B$72.2A6.4B$81.3B$82.2B.BA$81.B2ABA.A$80.BAB
ABA.A$78.A2.A.A.A.2A$78.4A.2A2.A$82.A4.A$78.2A2.A.3A$78.2A3.2A!

Repeat time is 166 for this particular device -- not the greatest, but far from the worst in the Herschel toolkit. Some Fx119 variants take 231 ticks to recover, as I recall.

Of course you can make a 2D transceiver out of any component with two parallel gliders, such as the old L156. Here's a sample 1D adjustable transceiver to start out --

x = 113, y = 72, rule = LifeHistory
22.2A$21.A2.A$22.2A8$26.3D$27.D$25.3D16$25.2A$25.2A2$16.2A.A$16.A.2A$
34.2A$34.A$32.A.A23.2A$32.2A24.2A2$17.A76.2A$17.3A75.A$8.A11.A74.A.A$
8.3A8.2A14.A60.A.A$11.A22.A.A39.A20.A3.2A$10.2A23.A39.A.A23.2A$58.2A
15.A2.A$57.A2.A15.2A$58.2A2.D$60.D.D2.2A35.D$61.2D2.2A33.3D$41.A58.D.
D$9.C29.3A58.D$9.C.C26.A72.A$9.3C26.2A70.A.A$11.C11.2A85.A.A$23.A87.A
$24.3A25.2A$26.A25.2A$56.2A$2.2A51.A.A$3.A24.2A25.A$3A24.A.A5.2A17.2A
$A26.A7.2A30.2A$26.2A39.2A2$40.A$36.2A.A.A27.2A$35.A.A.A.A27.2A$32.A
2.A.A.A.2A$32.4A.2A2.A$36.A4.A$32.2A2.A.3A$32.2A3.2A!

-- but notice the repeat rate is way up at 245 ticks. This can be fixed by adding more Snarks to delay one of the gliders, but then the transceiver starts getting oversized and cluttered again. Without a delay mechanism, the two gliders arrive at the receiver too many ticks apart: that's a nice feature of the H-to-G18.

It's really hard these days to sort out which new larger components are worth collecting, and which are just too big and awkward. Probably it would be a good idea to come up with some arbitrary measurements that match all current conduits, and accept new comduits into the collection only if they meet the same standards -- bounding-box and recovery-time limits mainly, I guess. Without definite limits, there are an incredible number of Snark-assisted composite conduits, for example, using a Herschel's output glider to shoot down some extra piece of junk in an otherwise functional conduit.

The above H-to-G18 converter is a bit oversized as it stands, but it maybe has some potential use as a compact delay circuit -- especially if it can be converted to a regular Herschel conduit, or if it can be adjusted somehow to make an H-to-G19+. In synchronized Herschel circuitry, sometimes one signal has to wait around for another signal to catch up... in which case extra-slow and extra-fast conduits are equally useful.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby dvgrn » January 24th, 2015, 9:49 pm

Extrementhusiast wrote:EDIT: Another one of them gives a possibly new H-to-G...

Hmm, no, that's an old one -- a third (at least) variant of H-to-G #2:

x = 72, y = 43, rule = LifeHistory
17.A$17.3A$20.A$19.2A$19.4B$21.3B$20.4B$20.5B$19.9B41.A$17.A.9B39.3A$
17.3A8B38.A$18.2BA7B35.AB2.A$17.2BA.8B33.A.A2B.A$7.2A8.13B16.2A13.B.
2AB.2A$8.A9.11B18.A11.6B$8.A.AB4.12B19.A.AB7.6B$9.2AB.16B19.2AB.3B3.
7B$11.19B20.16B$11.18B21.16B$12.17B.B20.15B$11.19B2A18.16B$9.19B.B2A
16.18B$7.19B4.B15.19B$7.2BA16B20.2BA16B$6.3BABA4B.9B19.3BABA4B.9B$7.
2B3A4B2.7B21.2B3A4B2.7B$6.5BA4B2.7B20.5BA4B2.7B$5.10B4.6B19.10B4.6B$
4.4B10.7B18.4B10.7B$4.3B12.6B18.3B12.6B$2.4B13.7B15.4B13.7B$2.2A16.5B
16.2A16.5B$3.A16.6B16.A16.6B$3A15.9B12.3A15.9B$A17.2A.7B11.A17.2A.7B$
19.A5.4B29.A5.4B$16.3A7.4B25.3A7.4B$16.A10.4B24.A10.4B$28.4B35.4B$29.
4B35.4B$30.3B$31.2B$32.B!

[The ghost eater creates a period doubler. It's definitely not compatible with the new catalyst, though.]
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby simsim314 » January 25th, 2015, 3:30 am

dvgrn wrote:It's really hard these days to sort out which new larger components are worth collecting, and which are just too big and awkward.


I think as general rule of thumb I would like to get more results from Hersrch and filter them out, rather than to get too little. But obviously I don't want to get a lot of total junk, and in this case we're talking about maybe adding 2-3 (?) more options.

Another issue: because we're dealing with H->G18->H it's adjustable mechanism. I wonder how complex it would be to add those adjustable conduits to Hersrch.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby dvgrn » January 26th, 2015, 5:20 pm

simsim314 wrote:I think as general rule of thumb I would like to get more results from Hersrch and filter them out, rather than to get too little. But obviously I don't want to get a lot of total junk, and in this case we're talking about maybe adding 2-3 (?) more options.

There are probably twenty or thirty plausible new catalysts that could be added to ptbsearch/catalyst/catfind. Exponential growth being what it is, it might make sense to add new catalysts one at a time, and make sure that a minimal search to find (say) F116 or Fx77 conduits, still completes in a reasonable amount of time. My wild speculations a few posts back were maybe a small step toward a way of testing catalysts against a large random sample of active reactions, to see what order the catalysts should be added in.

simsim314 wrote:Another issue: because we're dealing with H->G18->H it's adjustable mechanism. I wonder how complex it would be to add those adjustable conduits to Hersrch.

Karel Suhajda started looking into building a more generalized Java version of Hersrch that could handle different types of input and output signals -- gliders, tandem gliders, B-heptominos, pi-heptominos, or what have you, instead of just Herschels. Similar potential problem as with adding more catalysts to catfind/ptbsearch: if you're not careful the search tree grows too quickly and you start to get huge piles of more or less equivalent results.

On the other hand, if you set up the problem right you're likely to get a working Herschel circuit in a significantly smaller space... in some cases. Since any 2D transceiver guarantees a solution down to some minimum size (as long as the output square color doesn't change) it has generally seemed better to me to pick a 2D transceiver and adjust it by hand to solve specific problems, rather than slowing down Hersrch by having it hunt through all the transceiver options on every search.

I did start adding something like the ten smallest adjustments of each standard transceiver type -- each as a separate conduit -- to my version of Hersrch. Wanted to see how much slower Hersrch became, and how many more (X,Y,T) locations it could reach inside some range... but I never found time to finish that analysis.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby simsim314 » January 26th, 2015, 5:51 pm

dvgrn wrote:if you're not careful the search tree grows too quickly and you start to get huge piles of more or less equivalent results.


Bellman has interesting approach to deal with "similar results" that called categories. Each result is placed into some category (in bellman context it's the first encounter, the length of the encounter, and the final state). In Hersrch context with adjustable circuitry, category can be defined as the list of conduits, while ignoring the adjustment parameters. So you will get a lot of results, but they will be placed into same category - so you will just need to make a bit smarter reporting effort.

Another approach could be to make the "complexity" of the search one of the input parameters. So this will allow more sophisticated results in cost of performance. Which is OK as long as the user has control over it. Think that for final tuning of some replication unit, you will be willing to wait few hours of search to be sure everything is fully optimized - and all your conduits are minimal. Obviously if you're building some prototype g->x converter, you just want to get fast and dirty result instead.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby dvgrn » January 26th, 2015, 11:27 pm

simsim314 wrote:
dvgrn wrote:if you're not careful the search tree grows too quickly and you start to get huge piles of more or less equivalent results.

Bellman has interesting approach to deal with "similar results" that called categories. Each result is placed into some category (in bellman context it's the first encounter, the length of the encounter, and the final state). In Hersrch context with adjustable circuitry, category can be defined as the list of conduits, while ignoring the adjustment parameters. So you will get a lot of results, but they will be placed into same category - so you will just need to make a bit smarter reporting effort.

This is definitely the right idea. Several times I started writing a categorizer for 'catgl' output, to stack up equivalent results in the same general way -- just never got around to finishing it.

simsim314 wrote:Another approach could be to make the "complexity" of the search one of the input parameters.

I certainly wouldn't object to such an addition to Hersrch, but I may not attempt to make the change myself any time soon. I still haven't gotten around to fixing the crash-causing bug that Paul Chapman and I introduced several years ago in our custom version of Hersrch (which I'm still using).

Picking up a slightly different tangent again:

Here's an old sample of a composite conduit that is perfectly valid, but is still probably too big and unwieldy to be included in any reasonable Hersrch-like search utility. There must be many thousands of such constructions, each one just a little too big and awkward. In the one-in-a-million case where it's actually needed, it probably won't quite fit...!

#C boojum-assisted (or now rectifier-assisted) Fx128 conduit
#C 128 ticks, DX=37, DY=-3, repeat time ~160 or 354
#C Dave Greene, 3 January 2002 for boojum-assisted version.
#C Pipelining can reduce compression down to ~160 ticks,
#C but at the cost of a larger bounding box
x = 49, y = 70, rule = LifeHistory
6.2A.A$6.A.2A2$7.5A$2.2A2.A4.A$2.A2.A2.A$3.A.A.2A$2.2A.A5.A$5.A4.A.A$
5.2A2.A2.A$10.2A9$18.2A$18.2A8$8.2A22.2A$9.A21.A2.A$6.3A23.2A$6.A6$
15.2A$16.A$13.3A$13.A5$7.2A.D$6.3A.CAD$7.2A.3C.2A$6.3A.2AD.2A$6.2A40.
D$46.3D$46.D.D$46.D6$37.2A$37.2A3$23.2A$24.A$21.3A$21.A$2.2A29.2A$3.A
29.A$3A31.3A$A35.A!

Nowadays we can use Snarks to do similar deletions. Here's a random sample Herschel track with an output spacetime location that might not otherwise be reachable (I haven't checked). The circuit takes over a thousand ticks to recover -- but who knows, maybe in some cases that won't matter:

#C sample composite Snark-assisted Herschel track
x = 122, y = 133, rule = LifeHistory
60.2A$59.A2.A$60.2A8$55.3D$56.D$56.3D16$57.2A$57.2A2$64.A.2A$64.2A.A
4$47.2A$47.A.A$49.A$49.2A4$68.2A$9.A58.A$9.3A54.A.A$12.A36.2A15.2A$
11.2A36.2A3$2A.2A61.2A$2A.A62.A.A$3.A64.A$3.3A4.2A56.2A$.2A3.A3.2A$A
2.4A$2A.A15.2A$.A2.3A12.A.A$.A5.A13.A37.3D$2.5A14.2A27.2A8.D$4.A46.A
6.3D$48.3A$48.A6$51.2A$51.2A37.2A3.2A$41.2A17.2D28.2A2.A.3A$42.A17.2D
32.A4.A$42.A.A45.4A.2A2.A$43.2A45.A2.A.A.A.2A$93.A.A.A.A$94.2A.A.A$
98.A2$78.2A4.2A$78.A.A4.A7.2A$80.A4.A.A5.2A17.A$80.2A4.2A22.3A$47.2A
60.A$46.A.A60.2A$46.A$45.2A$117.2A.2A$118.A.2A$96.2A20.A$96.A13.2A4.
3A$97.3A10.2A3.A3.2A$62.2A29.2A4.A15.4A2.A$62.2A29.A5.A.2A15.A.2A$95.
A.2A.A.A12.3A2.A$94.2A.A2.A13.A5.A$94.A3.3A14.5A$95.3A19.A$98.A$97.2A
5$43.2A$42.A.A$42.A64.2A$41.2A19.2D36.2A5.A.A$62.2D36.2A7.A$109.2A$
53.A$53.3A40.A$44.A11.A38.A.A.2A$44.3A8.2A14.A23.A.A.A.A$47.A22.A.A
21.2A.A.A.A2.A$46.2A23.A23.A2.2A.4A$95.A4.A$96.3A.A2.2A$98.2A3.2A$68.
2A$68.A.A$70.A$45.C24.2A$45.C.C18.2A$45.3C18.A$47.C11.2A6.3A$59.A9.A$
60.3A$62.A2$38.2A$39.A$36.3A$36.A!

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the new H-to-G18 2D transceiver looks to me to be in the same general category as these awkward things. It's not quite as bad, but it still feels just a little too bulky; I bet there are much nicer mechanisms out there based on Kazyan's new catalysts.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Sphenocorona » January 27th, 2015, 12:11 am

Not a bellman find, but this *might* be able to be made into an actual conduit...
x = 31, y = 30, rule = LifeHistory
7.2A$8.A$7.A$7.2A3.2A$12.2A10$2A$2A2$27.2A$27.A.A$29.A$29.2A5$17.3A$
8.2A8.A$9.A6.3A$6.3A$6.A!
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby dvgrn » January 27th, 2015, 12:53 pm

Sphenocorona wrote:Not a bellman find, but this *might* be able to be made into an actual conduit...

This looks like a variant of H-to-G#2 again, but with a troublesome extra beehive:

x = 37, y = 86, rule = LifeHistory
21.2A$20.B2AB$21.3B$20.B.B3.2B$19.9B$18.12B$7.2A8.14B$8.A8.14B2.2A.A$
8.A.AB4.2D15BA.2A$9.2AB.2BD2BD13B$11.5B2D15B$11.22B$12.20B2A$11.21B2A
$9.24B$7.19B.4B$7.2BA15B3.2B$6.3BABA4B.9B$7.2B3A4B2.7B$6.5BA4B2.7B$5.
10B4.6B$4.4B10.7B$3.4B12.6B$2.4B13.7B$20.5B$20.6B$18.9B$18.2A.7B$19.A
5.4B$16.3A7.4B$16.A10.4B$28.4B$29.4B$30.3B$31.2B$32.B8$17.A$17.3A$20.
A$19.2A$19.4B$21.3B$20.4B$20.5B$19.9B$19.9B$19.9B$18.10B$17.12B$7.2A
8.13B$8.A9.11B$8.A.AB4.12B$9.2AB.15B$11.17B$11.17B$12.17B.B$11.19B2A$
9.19B.B2A$7.19B4.B$7.2BA16B$6.3BABA4B.9B$7.2B3A4B2.7B$6.5BA4B2.7B$5.
10B4.6B$4.4B10.7B$3.4B12.6B$3.3B13.7B$2.2A16.5B$3.A16.6B$3A15.9B$A17.
2A.7B$19.A5.4B$16.3A7.4B$16.A10.4B$28.4B$29.4B$30.3B$31.2B$32.B!

There doesn't seem to be a likely way for a Herschel to escape, or for the beehive to be suppressed. The beehive could absorb a glider on an otherwise transparent lane, but there are already a lot of known ways to drop blocks onto glider lanes to do that kind of thing, including another H-to-G#2 variant:

x = 35, y = 46, rule = LifeHistory
4$20.A$20.3A$23.A$22.2A4.2B$10.2A10.8B$11.A12.7B$11.A.AB4.B2.9B$12.2A
B.4B2.10B$14.19B$14.18B$15.17B.B$14.19B2A$12.19B.B2A$10.19B4.B$10.2BC
16B$9.3BCBC4B.3B2D4B$10.2B3C4B2.2B2D3B$9.5BC4B2.7B$8.10B4.6B$7.4B10.
7B$7.3B12.6B$5.4B13.7B$5.2A16.5B$6.A16.6B$3.3A15.9B$3.A17.2A.7B$22.A
5.4B$19.3A7.4B$19.A10.4B$31.4B$32.3B$33.2B$34.B!

Maybe this new mechanism could be turned into a period multiplier, especially if the first eater were removed or altered. But that would be a whole new search, I think.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby simsim314 » January 27th, 2015, 2:24 pm

@dvgrn OK I can see your point.

Let me ask it in other way: generally speaking (from your experience), how frequent is it to find conduits that will benefit from transceivers over standard basic conduits?

Maybe even optimizing conduits is something that relevant mainly for replicators, and for most purposes we have enough variety of conduits already and everything is pretty good as it is...
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby dvgrn » January 27th, 2015, 3:42 pm

simsim314 wrote:Let me ask it in other way: generally speaking (from your experience), how frequent is it to find conduits that will benefit from transceivers over standard basic conduits?

It's kind of surprising, but basic conduits usually win over transceivers. That is to say:

-- on average it's enormously faster to build an input-H to output-H connection using something like a 2D transceiver, especially if you need precise timing. Just include a 180-degree adjustable "trombone slide" somewhere and you get +/-8N immediately, plus eight swappable sections of conduit that are [0..7] mod 8, line up the transceiver, and you're done. But

-- you get significantly more compact results if you spend a long time wrestling with Hersrch and coming up with a tightly-packed custom design. The solution with the smallest bounding box will have a transceiver in it less than 10% of the time -- possibly even less than 1% of the time.

This isn't as surprising as it might seem. Herschels tend to travel more or less orthogonally (at least until more recent conduits like Brice Due's F177 started showing up). So on average, Herschel tracks are good at sharing space with other Herschel tracks, but lousy at packing tightly together with diagonally oriented things like transceivers.

If you're looking for an H@(0,0,0) -> H@(X,Y,T) connection, as X, Y, and T increase, the odds quickly go above 99% that the minimum population solution will have a transceiver in it.

But if you want something that will take one Herschel as input, and produce (say) three synchronized gliders to build an MWSS or whatever, then the fastest and/or fastest to recover and/or smallest bounding box solution will usually be 90+% basic 1990's-era conduits, and will only very rarely have a transceiver in it.

Note: This is a grand over-generalization based on my past experience. But very little of my past experience includes Snark-assisted circuitry! Really Snarks are probably more of a Game-changer than anyone has quite realized yet.

I'm still hoping that someone comes up with a really compact stable G-to-H; that would really change things. Or an orthogonal G-to-*WSS-to-G transceiver would dodge the problem with diagonal packing, of course.

simsim314 wrote:Maybe even optimizing conduits is something that relevant mainly for replicators, and for most purposes we have enough variety of conduits already and everything is pretty good as it is...

That may be more or less true. There was a lot more focus on optimization a decade ago, when people were working on getting their names into Jason Summers' gun collection.

Nowadays it would be pretty easy to do an analysis of any one of Guam's newer Herschel conduits (including his alternate transceiver) and find any number of gun periods that could be improved. But nobody has bothered to do much of that. The obsession with small sizes has faded a lot since Golly came along, for obvious reasons. Now there's a large class of patterns where an order of magnitude one way or the other really doesn't matter much -- Golly can still run it just as fast.

Still, new Herschel conduits are something more than just a curiosity. If we develop enough expertise in generating new Herschel conduits, we'll also eventually locate lots of other things on the Most Wanted list, like stable G-to-H, H-to-2H, G-to-*WSS, H-to-swimmer, etc.

While I'm wishing, a small direct H-to-loafer would be really nice...!
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby simsim314 » January 27th, 2015, 4:55 pm

I think the two major directions in herschel conduits are:

1. Self constructing mechanisms.
2. Any other mechanisms that don't require the conduits to be constructed with gliders (g->salvo, guns, computers).

This division is made mainly because the requirements are drastically differ:

Self construction conduits require all components to be relatively easily self constructed with small amount of gliders. SLs for these are pretty much well known, and the conduits are well explored with catalyst and ptbsearch. For these mechanisms the SL count is the crucial factor, and new conduits with 3-4 SLs are very unlikely to find. Not to say there can't be nothing new discovered here, but this is very specific area with it's own rules and a lot of work has done in here.

For other mechanisms the most important thing is the speed of G->H (i.e. the recovery time), and large variety of different "nice" conduits. Everything else just less matters, as there is no requirement to build the conduit with gliders. Say for building G->*WSS one can use Snark freely, or any other complex SL for that matter. At the moment we will have G->H with low recovery we won't use any H->2H and other stuff, we'll just use the G->H again.

And this is where bellman can allow a lot of progress. As bellman can find complex SLs and reaction specific catalysts, and I guess this are is not yet so well explored. As bellman here since 2013 and no one run bellman deep enough, or somehow combined bellman wide search abilities with catalyst depth.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby HartmutHolzwart » January 28th, 2015, 8:30 am

If I might add my selfisch request:

I would also be interested in conduits that don't surpress the famous first glider. Those conduits could be used to construct caterpillars, provied some other minor technischal details can be solved (like finding appropriate helices, deal with period multiplication, building huge fanouts,...)
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Extrementhusiast » January 29th, 2015, 9:37 pm

This seems like a very promising starting point for a different stable reflector:
x = 24, y = 18, rule = LifeHistory
3.2C$3.2C7.D$13.D$14.D$15.D$16.D$3.A.2A.D8.D$.3A.2A2.D8.D$A9.D8.D$.3A
.2A4.D8.D$3.A.A6.D8.D$3.A.A7.D8.D$4.A9.D8.D$15.D$16.D$17.D4.2C$18.D2.
2C$19.D3.C!

It can use a block, boat or beehive at that location. (This may also be somewhat promising for a Herschel conduit.)
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby dvgrn » January 31st, 2015, 11:22 am

dvgrn wrote:Without a search utility, the best I could do with a few minutes of experimentation on the likeliest candidate was to produce a second parallel glider, making a G18 output...

With a search utility ( catgl1.0.x -- Windows-only version for the moment, unfortunately ) there's clearly a lot of potential, and a lot of filtering work to do.

For example, here's another H-to-G with a new output lane, northwest this time. NW outputs are relatively rare. Unfortunately this converter is fairly big and very very slow (800+ ticks):

x = 56, y = 54, rule = LifeHistory
4B$.4B$2.4B$3.4B$4.4B$5.4B23.2A3.2A$6.4B23.A3.A$7.4B21.A6.A2.A$8.4B
20.2A4.5A$9.4B22.2A$10.4B18.2A.A.4A$11.4B17.2A.A.A2.A$12.4B4.2A14.A$
13.4B4.A$14.4B3.A.A$15.4B3.2A$16.4B$17.3B$18.2B$19.B3$22.A$22.A.A$22.
3A23.2A$24.A23.A$46.A.A$46.2A3$15.2A$16.A$13.3A30.2A$13.A32.2A2$27.A.
2A$25.3A.2A23.2A$24.A29.A$25.3A.2A21.A.A$27.A.A22.2A$27.A.A$28.A3$53.
2A$53.A$30.2C19.A.A$29.C.C19.2A$29.C$28.2C3$35.2C$35.2C!

Might not be bad if you happen to need a large delay and a NW glider output -- but where should we keep the thousands of "low-probability-of-usefulness" H-to-G converters that we could generate along these lines?

The last two catalysts, in white -- the eater and block -- suppress a block and a clean R-pentomino, respectively. Below is a sample Herschel track found by running a new search with those last two conduits removed. It's an honest-to-goodness never-before-seen Rx382 Herschel conduit.

Unfortunately it needs support from a p8 oscillator, so... back to the drawing board! The Bellman-assisted search space is enormous, so there are bound to be good new discoveries out there somewhere.

#C Rx382p8 Herschel conduit
#C found  31 January 2014 with Michael Simkins' Catgl 1.0.3
x = 50, y = 78, rule = LifeHistory
22.2C3.2C$23.C3.C$22.C6.C2.C$22.2C4.5C$.2B22.2C$B.2B18.2C.C.4C$.4B17.
CA.C.A2.C$2.4B4.2C11.D2BA3BD$3.4B4.C12.B.3B$4.4B3.C.CB7.6B$5.4B3.CAB.
3B3.7B$6.4B3.D16B$7.4B3.17B$8.4B3.16B$9.4B.17B$10.21B$10.22B$10.2BC
20B$9.3BCBC4B.12B$10.2B3C4B2.11B6.2C$9.5BC4B2.11B6.C$8.12B2.11B2.BC.C
$7.4B6.17B.BAC$7.3B8.18BD$5.4B10.17B$5.CAD12.17B$6.C13.17BD$3.3C14.
16BAC$3.C17.15BAC$16.D2.18BD$17.CD2A14B$14.D3CB2AB2.11B9.2C$14.C4.BD
4.10B9.C$15.3C.2C5.9B3.B2.BC.C$17.C.C.D5.13B.BAC$17.C.C6.16BD$18.CD6.
16B$24.18B$23.18B$22.19B2.2C$21.D17B4.C$20.CA17B.BC.C$19.C.CB2.B.12B.
BAC$19.C8.13BD$18.2C6.15B$25.16B$22.D2.16B$22.CB.17B$21.C.A18B$22.C2B
.B.13B5.2B$22.DB4.12B5.BAB$27.11B7.5B$27.10B4.B2.3ABAB$25.D9B5.2B.A.
2A2B$24.CAB.7B4.4B2A.A$23.C.CB.6B4.3BAB3A$23.C4.6B3.8B$22.2C4.6B2.4B
2.BAB$27.7B2.3BC2.2B$27.6B.B.2BA.C$28.7B.B.AC2.D$28.7B7.AC$27.8B7.C.C
$27.7B3.2A5.C$27.6B3.D2CD4.2C$26.2B3D2B$26.4BD2B$25.4B3DB$24.9B$24.9B
$24.9B$24.8B4$25.2E$24.E2.E$25.2E!

Catgl generated 700+ different catalyst arrangements before I canceled it, and the above is what I came up with for just the first arrangement I looked at. It's probably not worth chasing this particular reaction any further, though there might be other ways of getting rid of the block by combining this with some of Guam's stable B-block-killing mechanisms.

-------------------------------------------------

The following is a walkthrough of the setup I used. If anyone else wants to discover their very own H-to-G converter or Herschel conduit, this general line of attack has fairly good odds of finding one (maybe using a different one of Kazyan's Bellman catalysts.)

1) Put catgl.exe and catgl.py in a folder called "Catgl" in Golly's Scripts folder. (This currently assumes that Golly's Scripts folder pointer is pointing to the default location.)

2) Paste a start pattern similar to the following into Golly:

x = 37, y = 39, rule = LifeHistory
19.2C3.2C$20.C3.C$19.C6.C2.C$19.2C4.5C$22.2C$19.2C.C.4C$19.CA.C.A2.C$
7.2C11.D2BA3BD$8.C12.B.3B$8.C.CB7.6B$9.CAB.3B3.7B$10.D16B$11.17B$12.
16B$11.17B$9.19B$7.22B$7.3B.19B$6.4B.B.3B.12B$7.3B3.3B2.11B6.2C$6.6B.
3B2.11B6.C$5.10B4.11B2.BC.C$4.4B10.13B.BAC$4.3B11.15BD$2.4B12.15B$2.C
AD12.17B$3.C13.17BD$3C14.8BA7BAC$C17.8B3A4BAC$13.D2.10BAB2A4BD$14.CD
2A12BAB$11.D3CB2AB2.2B5ABA2B$11.C4.BD4.2B4A4B$12.3C.2C5.2B2A4B$14.C.C
.D7.3BAB$14.C.C9.B4A$15.CD9.A3BA$26.A2BA$27.3A!

This is generation 190 of the original pattern:

x = 37, y = 37, rule = LifeHistory
19.2C3.2C$20.C3.C$19.C6.C2.C$19.2C4.5C$22.2C$19.2C.C.4C$19.CA.C.A2.C$
7.2C11.D2.A3.D$8.C$8.C.C$9.CA$10.D6$9.A$9.A.A$9.3A23.2C$11.A23.C$33.C
.C$33.AC$33.D2$2.CAD$3.C30.D$3C30.AC$C32.AC$13.D20.D$14.CD2A$11.D3C.
2A$11.C5.D$12.3C.2C$14.C.C.D$14.C.C$15.CD!

-- but there's no point in adding catalysts too soon, especially if we're primarily trying to find new Herschel conduits, not just new H-to-G or H-to-junk converters. Allowing catalysts to be added between T=180 and T=200 or so will close off the reaction and leave no place for a Herschel to escape.

Notice the red cells showing cells that must stay OFF -- if they turn on, the catalyst is basically doomed. These can be added by hand, or catgl's output used to include them automatically for use in incremental searches.

3) Run catgl.py and choose which catalysts you want to use in the search, and when you want them placed. I used the following, somewhat at random:

Catalysts to use:
eat1
eat2
bloc

Generations for placing catalysts: 10 through 100.
Catalysts must survive 70 generations.
2 catalysts maximum (2 maximum in one generation).

[This is the way it's reported in the output reactions.txt file -- translate as appropriate to get the right numbers into the catgl.py GUI fields. Notice that "10" and "100" presume that the start pattern has already been run for 190 ticks, so really this would mean we're looking to place two catalysts between T=200 and T=290.]

3b) It's probably a good idea to add catalysts just one or two at a time, and when you find a promising reaction, run a new search with the new catalyst(s) pre-added. Three or more catalysts will often just guarantee that your search will never finish -- but your mileage may vary, if you have tight limits in space or time and really want to cover all the bases in a search.

4) If everything is set up right, a DOS window will open and you'll see a slowly-changing progress report:

30000 calls to advance1gen().
2 catalysts, which react at gens.: 35 38
Generation reached: 58
   -----
31000 calls to advance1gen().
2 catalysts, which react at gens.: 35 40
Generation reached: 40
   -----

4b) When the first reaction time (35 in the above sample) gets close to the "last generation" value that you set (100, or whatever) then the search is almost done.

5) Eventually catgl's Tkinter dialog box will close, and a list of successful catalyzed reactions will be shown on the current layer in Golly. Review these and choose the best ones for further searches if necessary. If you're really lucky, when you run reactions.rle you'll see new clean glider outputs, or even the dinosaur-head of a B, R, or Herschel escaping from one side or another of the envelope.
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Re: Thread For Your Bellman Finds

Postby Sokwe » January 31st, 2015, 6:21 pm

dvgrn wrote:It's an honest-to-goodness never-before-seen Rx382 Herschel conduit.... Unfortunately it needs support from a p8 oscillator, so... back to the drawing board!

The classical way to solve this is with Buckingham's B->r, giving a new R421 conduit:
x = 43, y = 81, rule = B3/S23
19b2o3b2o$20bo3bo$19bo6bo2bo$19b2o4b5o$22b2o$19b2obob4o$19b2obobo2bo$
7b2o14bo$8bo$8bobo$9b2o7$9bo$9bobo$9b3o23b2o$11bo23bo$33bobo$33b2o3$2b
2o$3bo$3o30b2o$o32b2o2$14bob2o$12b3ob2o23b2o$11bo29bo$12b3ob2o21bobo$
14bobo22b2o$14bobo$15bo3$40b2o$40bo$17b2o19bobo$16bobo19b2o$16bo$15b2o
3$19bo$18bobo$19bo5$21b2o$20bobo$20bo$19b2o$35b2obo$35bob2o2$28b2o$28b
2o16$27b3o$27bo$26b2o!

Unfortunately, it might not be very useful due to its size and high repeat time.
-Matthias Merzenich
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